What exactly are we talking about here?

[Doc T]

I am sorry but I refuse to investigate truth through the pages of farms, fair, or any other mormon source as in my experience, there is only a mormon spin. If you have a link to a Christian source, I would love to read it. Thanks.

Feel free to stick your head in the sand, it's fine by me. Just don't try to make arguments from ignorance.

Doc

~

 

[CrownCaster]

Feel free to stick your head in the sand, it's fine by me. Just don't try to make arguments from ignorance.

Doc

~

Whoa, not going to a cultist for truth is ignorance? Wow, pot calling the kettle black, eh?

 

[Doc T]

Whoa, not going to a cultist for truth is ignorance? Wow, pot calling the kettle black, eh?

So quoting the works of Bible scholars like R.P.C. Hanson, D.W.B. Robinson, Guy G. Stroumsa, or Morton Smith or quoting from early Christians like Origen, Basil of Caesarea, or Irenaeus is cultist?

Since you won't read their works yourself, I suggested for you to go to a website that makes it all available for you, but you would rather stick your head in the sand and yell, "cultist." No I don't see it as the pot calling the kettle black, but the pot calling the kettle ignorant.

Doc

~

 

[CrownCaster]

So quoting the works of Bible scholars like R.P.C. Hanson, D.W.B. Robinson, Guy G. Stroumsa, or Morton Smith or quoting from early Christians like Origen, Basil of Caesarea, or Irenaeus is cultist?

Since you won't read their works yourself, I suggested for you to go to a website that makes it all available for you, but you would rather stick your head in the sand and yell, "cultist." No I don't see it as the pot calling the kettle black, but the pot calling the kettle ignorant.

Doc

~

Just a bunch of twistings here. It still is like going to hitler for a factual look at the holocaust.

 

[fatboys]

Just a bunch of twistings here. It still is like going to hitler for a factual look at the holocaust.

FB: Like going to you to learn about the LDS faith?

 

[CrownCaster]

FB: Like going to you to learn about the LDS faith?

No, Im not a mormon anymore so unlike you and every other mormon I have nothing to gain by twisting the truth. If mormonism is what God wanted for me I would be in it in a second. You just refuse to look at the truth. Dont want to lose your melchizedek status?

 

[happyinhisgrace]

So quoting the works of Bible scholars like R.P.C. Hanson, D.W.B. Robinson, Guy G. Stroumsa, or Morton Smith or quoting from early Christians like Origen, Basil of Caesarea, or Irenaeus is cultist?

Since you won't read their works yourself, I suggested for you to go to a website that makes it all available for you, but you would rather stick your head in the sand and yell, "cultist." No I don't see it as the pot calling the kettle black, but the pot calling the kettle ignorant.

Doc

~

Doc, the problem with sites like FAIR and FARMS is that they misuse the writings of early Christians and they take them out of context to try and make them look "lds friendly", when they aren't at all.

A good example of this is how 5 or so months ago, here on CF, you, Tom Nossor and some other lds were claiming that early Christian writings of "man becoming gods" actually backed up the lds belief that men can infact, become gods of their own, but then when the actual writings were posted, in context and discussed, it was pointed out and made obvious that those writings were not at all saying what the lds apologist were claiming they did. It was nothing more than the misuse of early Christian writings on the part of lds apologist to try and make their pro-lds arguments appear "correct".

 

[Doc T]

Doc, the problem with sites like FAIR and FARMS is that they misuse the writings of early Christians and they take them out of context to try and make them look "lds friendly", when they aren't at all.

I'll look forward to you demonstrating that this is true. Either from FAIR, FARMS or Barry Bickmore's website.

Doc

~

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I'll look forward to you demonstrating that this is true. Either from FAIR, FARMS or Barry Bickmore's website.

Doc

~

I already demonstrated it with the example I gave, that you cut out of my post when you quoted me.

A good example of this is how 5 or so months ago, here on CF, you, Tom Nossor and some other lds were claiming that early Christian writings of "man becoming gods" actually backed up the lds belief that men can infact, become gods of their own, but then when the actual writings were posted, in context and discussed, it was pointed out and made obvious that those writings were not at all saying what the lds apologist were claiming they did. It was nothing more than the misuse of early Christian writings on the part of lds apologist to try and make their pro-lds arguments appear "correct".

 

[Doc T]

I already demonstrated it with the example I gave, that you cut out of my post when you quoted me.

"A good example of this is how 5 or so months ago, here on CF, you, Tom Nossor and some other lds were claiming that early Christian writings of "man becoming gods" actually backed up the lds belief that men can infact, become gods of their own, but then when the actual writings were posted, in context and discussed, it was pointed out and made obvious that those writings were not at all saying what the lds apologist were claiming they did. It was nothing more than the misuse of early Christian writings on the part of lds apologist to try and make their pro-lds arguments appear "correct".

#1 Did Tom quote from FARMS, FAIR or Barry Bickmore?

#2 Perhaps you can link me to this conversation, as I did not read it. At least I don't recall reading anything like what you have characterized. Right now they are just unsubstantiated claims.

Doc

~

 

[happyinhisgrace]

#1 Did Tom quote from FARMS, FAIR or Barry Bickmore?

#2 Perhaps you can link me to this conversation, as I did not read it. At least I don't recall reading anything like what you have characterized. Right now they are just unsubstantiated claims.

Doc

~

How do I link you to it? How do I search the past posts? My understanding is that there is no way to go back past 100 days of posts on CF. If you can tell me how to do it, I will look them up and you can go back and read them yourself.

 

[Doc T]

How do I link you to it? How do I search the past posts? My understanding is that there is no way to go back past 100 days of posts on CF. If you can tell me how to do it, I will look them up and you can go back and read them yourself.

I'm sure there is a way, but I do not know how. I guess you will just have to demonstrate your contention from FARMS, FAIR or Barry Bickmore's websites.

Doc

~

 

[fatboys]

No, Im not a mormon anymore so unlike you and every other mormon I have nothing to gain by twisting the truth. If mormonism is what God wanted for me I would be in it in a second. You just refuse to look at the truth. Dont want to lose your melchizedek status?

FB:Crown, this is not trying to be rude, but if you were LDS at one time, either it was very long ago, or you knew little about it. From your posts it is apparent that your knowledge is very shallow. Again this is not a cut. But it is very telling. I didn't know that you were once LDS.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I'm sure there is a way, but I do not know how. I guess you will just have to demonstrate your contention from FARMS, FAIR or Barry Bickmore's websites.

Doc

~

I will get to that when I have time. I am still working on researching the lds apologist claims that you posted at the first of the thread.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Very Early Christian writers noted examples of textual corruption. Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) accused the Jews of removing portions of the Old Testament that prophesied of Christ to come. He referred to missing portions of the writings of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezra, citing the missing words (Dialogue With Trypho 72-74). Two other second-century writers, Irenaeus (Against Heresies 3:20; 4:22) and Melito of Sardis (Homily on the Passion), cited one of the same passages, the latter attributing it to both Isaiah and Jeremiah. Ironically, none of these missing parts has been restored in any Christian Bible.

Doc, I think you have sent me on a wild goose chase with your lds apologist quote above. I have read Justin's dialogue with Typhro and I don't see anywhere that Typhro has sited that there are missing words from those OT writings in the quote you provide here. This is just another example of lds apologist misuse of early church writings to try and prove their "point". Here is the link so you can read it in it's entirety for yourself. If you see what the lds apologist have claimed, in the actual dialogue, please feel free to bring it to light so we can discuss it. http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4043_787325

As it is right now, I have spent a lot of time already on just this one writing and so far, the lds apologist claims are, as usual, unsubstantiated. So, until someone can actually quote something from the lds sources that is true, I can not afford to spend more time chasing pink unicorns.

Now, a question for anyone else here on CF. In regards to the topic of this thread, does anyone have any actual real factual proof that those who compiled the current Bible purposefully changed writings, took away or added to them or changed them to make them convey their own personal beliefs or promote their own agenda and beliefs as the lds church claims?

 

[Doc T]

Doc, I think you have sent me on a wild goose chase with your lds apologist quote above. I have read Justin's dialogue with Typhro and I don't see anywhere that Typhro has sited that there are missing words from those OT writings in the quote you provide here. This is just another example of lds apologist misuse of early church writings to try and prove their "point". Here is the link so you can read it in it's entirety for yourself. If you see what the lds apologist have claimed, in the actual dialogue, please feel free to bring it to light so we can discuss it. http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4043_787325

As it is right now, I have spent a lot of time already on just this one writing and so far, the lds apologist claims are, as usual, unsubstantiated. So, until someone can actually quote something from the lds sources that is true, I can not afford to spend more time chasing pink unicorns.

It is unfortunate when the "pink unicorns" show up. Apparently your "wild goose chase" was cut short before the "pink unicorns" could come out from hiding.

This from the website that you linked.

" Chapter LXXII.-Passages Have Been Removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah.

And I said, "I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: `And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and271 thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.'272 And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: `I [was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.'273 And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: `The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.'274 "[emphasis added]​

Now, a question for anyone else here on CF. In regards to the topic of this thread, does anyone have any actual real factual proof that those who compiled the current Bible purposefully changed writings, took away or added to them or changed them to make them convey their own personal beliefs or promote their own agenda and beliefs as the lds church claims?

Now that you have some "actual proof", I will be patiently waiting for you to finish your "wild goose chases" and respond to

1) Your charges that LDS just make this stuff up and your evidence for the above.

2) Your further comments on "actual real factual proof that those who compiled the current Bible purposefully changed writings, took away or added to them or changed them to make them convey their own personal beliefs or promote their own agenda and beliefs".

Doc

~

 

[happyinhisgrace]

It is unfortunate when the "pink unicorns" show up. Apparently your "wild goose chase" was cut short before the "pink unicorns" could come out from hiding.

This from the website that you linked.

" Chapter LXXII.-Passages Have Been Removed by the Jews from Esdras and Jeremiah.



And I said, "I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: `And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and271 thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.'272 And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: `I [was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.'273 And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: `The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.'274 "[emphasis added]

​

Now that you have some "actual proof", I will be patiently waiting for you to finish your "wild goose chases" and respond to

1) Your charges that LDS just make this stuff up and your evidence for the above.

2) Your further comments on "actual real factual proof that those who compiled the current Bible purposefully changed writings, took away or added to them or changed them to make them convey their own personal beliefs or promote their own agenda and beliefs".

Doc

~

I do have some thoughts on #1, first being that the NT does tell us the things that Justin says were taken out of the OT writings, so in fact, the Bible still contains them. In regards to #2, you, nor anyone else has proven this one, unless you believe that the Jews compiled the Bible we have today, including the NT.