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Again where does it say that only these are accepted? Or maybe it is the fact that these images or not classified as idols, because they are not? Like I said before there is ample evidence from Scripture that not all images are idols.
But I think I am done reading the interesting ways that Scripture is being warped. I am still waiting for that verse that says all images are bad except the ones in the temple or Tent.
What about then the building of the Temple? I have read not of any discourse between Solomon and God on how it should have been built, and yet the Temple is full of images. So did Solomon violate the Commandment? Or perhaps not all images are idols.Only in Numbers are the commissioned images.
The Book of Numbersot to be bowed before or prayed to.
Numbers Chapter 21
Numbers 21, verses 8 & 9.
God command the making of a brass serpent, but not to be bowed down before it, or to be prayed to. Context applies.
Also the angels on the ark of the covenant.
None of the exceptions are to be prayed to or bowed to.
Right. Just the ones prayed to & that are bowed to.
I would've hoped so, but apparently not.
You'll be waiting a long time for that load of straw.
Only in Numbers are the commissioned images.
The Book of Numbersot to be bowed before or prayed to.
Numbers Chapter 21
Numbers 21, verses 8 & 9.
God command the making of a brass serpent, but not to be bowed down before it, or to be prayed to. Context applies.
Also the angels on the ark of the covenant.
None of the exceptions are to be prayed to or bowed to.
No, I am afraid they will anger me. Not only that, if someone is too lazy to defend their position and thus resorts to videos, isn't worth responding to. If you know your faith, then profess it. Do you see me using videos? Should I post some? If I did would you watch them? I would expect not. So why expect the same from me?No. Videos that back up what they say with primary sources, not that you would know since you refuse to watch them. Are you afraid they might change your mind?
No, like LLOJ said before, I have a life outside these threads. Watching a hours of video, isn't in my schedule. And concerning the long posts comment, you are right at times I will not do so, for most of it I have already seen before. But it should be noted that I responded to your cut & paste in detail, and then all I got back is watch these 40 hours of videos or however long they all were. Sorry, I'm not going to do that. I'm just not a video guy.You have seen it, you commented that you didn't feel like watching it, and commented to someone else that you wouldn't read a long post either. You must be afraid of the truth.
Yes I have. Every single place in the Bible were angels are addressed. Some describe a physical manifestation, but most do not, which as I said before fits within the definition of prayer. Thus in the OT there is plenty of examples of dialogue between men and angels. In the Gospels, we even have Jesus dialoging with Moses and Elijah at his transfiguration. So there is plenty of examples of this dialog and petitioning between angels and men. And one instance of Jesus Himself dialoging with Saints, who we would have to assume that Moses and Elijah are.You believe wrong. You have not answered where someone prays to anything or anyone other than God except pagans in the Bible, and you totally ignored other questions as well. I never just said false in this discussion, Tz was referring to other debates I engaged in. I have explained every answer I have given you, sometimes with so much detail and information that you refuse to even look at it repeatedly.
Of course we're to Abstain from all appearance of evil (1 Thesselonians 5:22) and to abstain from things that may make our brethren stumble brother. I think the RCC is in error here, as its obvious that it cause some to stumble in its appearance of idolatry.
It is a good idea for everyone to join hands. And it depends on which groups you are referring to when you mention they all don't believe the same thing. Christianity is the belief that Jesus of Nazereth is the Christ, and the Son of God. Catholics believe that, so do Protestants, Orthodox, and Copts.Not in this case. I know that you think it's a good idea for everyone to join hands and pretend that we all believe the same thing, but we don't all believe the same thing. What's more, it matters. This is a discussion board, and we are discussing a perfectly reasonable issue--religious errors and inventions made through the years. If you disagree with some that have already been listed, by all means give us your thinking on them.
That I think would be an understandable approach, except for the fact that the use of images precedes Iconoclastic Protestants. Should we give 2000 years of devotion to make iconoclasts to feel better? That would be a tuff pill. Especially considering that more and more Protestants are beginning to understand the advantages of having religious art, and using that art in their own devotions.
I think there is a happy medium here. Images of Jesus, I think are pretty much universally ok by all denominations. Maybe if we stuck to images of Him? Because NO ONE has any issue with worshipping Him!(if they do, tough noodles!)
Except that Lutherans ARE Protestants as well as Anglicans, Methodists, and a few other liturgical churches. This would seem to conflict with your thesis.I'll give you my thinking on them since you asked. Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, or any group with a liturgical worship do those things because of their beginnings. They explain things with movements, positions, and images, and this helped with explaining the gospel to pagans, the illiterate , and anyone else who is not proficient with deep or complex biblical themes.
Protestant groups, and other more modern groups explain things with a teacher/student classroom type service, and don't use the same methods.
Yes they are Protestants. How does that conflict with my thesis? You do not make sense to me. The delivery is not important. Each group is influenced by the culture it serves. Which is why Catholic/Orthodox have ancient Jewish worship formats that were replaced and re-ordered with Christian themes (Communion, confessing sins, sharing in a meal, ect) , while having pagan dates for many calendar events.Except that Lutherans ARE Protestants as well as Anglicans, Methodists, and a few other liturgical churches. This would seem to conflict with your thesis.
Yes they are Protestants. How does that conflict with my thesis? You do not make sense to me.
I'll give you my thinking on them since you asked. Catholics, Orthodox, Lutherans, or any group with a liturgical worship do those things because of their beginnings. They explain things with movements, positions, and images, and this helped with explaining the gospel to pagans, the illiterate , and anyone else who is not proficient with deep or complex biblical themes.
Protestant groups, and other more modern groups explain things with a teacher/student classroom type service, and don't use the same methods.
I put those Protestant groups with the larger liturgical groups because of their format. Because the point is not what various groups are classified as, but why they utilize a particular format.OK. Here's what you wrote:
You appear to contrast liturgical churches with "Protestant" churches, but many Protestants ARE members of liturgical churches. Did you mean to say that Lutherans and Anglicans, for example, "explain things with movements" and also with a "teacher/student classroom type service" (which, obviously they do not do)?
No, I am afraid they will anger me. Not only that, if someone is too lazy to defend their position and thus resorts to videos, isn't worth responding to. If you know your faith, then profess it. Do you see me using videos? Should I post some? If I did would you watch them? I would expect not. So why expect the same from me?
No, like LLOJ said before, I have a life outside these threads. Watching a hours of video, isn't in my schedule. And concerning the long posts comment, you are right at times I will not do so, for most of it I have already seen before. But it should be noted that I responded to your cut & paste in detail, and then all I got back is watch these 40 hours of videos or however long they all were. Sorry, I'm not going to do that. I'm just not a video guy.
Yes I have. Every single place in the Bible were angels are addressed. Some describe a physical manifestation, but most do not, which as I said before fits within the definition of prayer. Thus in the OT there is plenty of examples of dialogue between men and angels. In the Gospels, we even have Jesus dialoging with Moses and Elijah at his transfiguration. So there is plenty of examples of this dialog and petitioning between angels and men. And one instance of Jesus Himself dialoging with Saints, who we would have to assume that Moses and Elijah are.
Before you think to say well those were dialogs only and not true prayers because the angels responded back, let us not forget that the instances we have of prayer to God in Scrpture, the far majority, if not all of them have it in a dialog form as well. So should we not pray to God, unless He speaks back to us? I would think not.
No, you quote it and then impose the RCC interpretation over the words of God.
No. Videos that back up what they say with primary sources, not that you would know since you refuse to watch them. Are you afraid they might change your mind?
I never just said false in this discussion, Tz was referring to other debates I engaged in. I have explained every answer I have given you, sometimes with so much detail and information that you refuse to even look at it repeatedly.
First, I assume that you mean to deliver a "dig" to Protestants by using the word "fearful," since it is not fear that keeps Protestants from this practice.Most Protestant groups don't beseech Mary to intercede on their behalf, but they also believe in life after death. And if Mary was saved, as most Protestants I assume believe, and she then lives, what makes them so fearful to speak to her?
Many things seem silly before you are properly informed about them, so I can understand that.That is just one example of the point I am trying to make. I'm not saying it is wrong for Protestants to NOT beseech Mary, only that division over such a thing is silly.
And here we have the trope of "Everyone else offers a man-made interpretation; I merely repeat what the Bible plainly says."
Please explain how church history has changed your mind. Be specific. I have always wondered, since you claim that your perspective is informed by history, how it could ever have possibly changed as a result of the serious study of history.
Since you posted your videos, and assumed that they did your work for you, "false...no...false...no" mixed in with a few variations of "everything that smacks of Catholicism = BAD." There has been very little critical analysis.
Of course we're to Abstain from all appearance of evil (1 Thesselonians 5:22) and to abstain from things that may make our brethren stumble brother. I think the RCC is in error here, as its obvious that it cause some to stumble in its appearance of idolatry.
That is not what I said.
Pteriax said:Changed my mind? As in I used to think the RCC was alright and now I do not? That would be a very long post, and would include several videos... Would you actually read it? If so I have no problem sharing.
That is a gross misrepresentation of my posts.
Pteriax said:I have caught you in such things before.
Pteriax said:I know you like to follow people and nitpick them, but this is getting a bit silly.
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