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Albion, you truly do not have a full understanding of this. It is via their intercessions, not their power or ability, that prayers are answered. The key word here is intercession.
What the petitioner is attributing to the saint, is their superior relationship to the Lord, that He will answer their prayers.
If God decides to give someone in heaven the means of hearing all these prayers, do you think that this is beyond Him to do? Seriously, do you really have any concept of what we will be able to do and not do in heaven? You are limiting God here.
Okay, God told the people to do all of that through the prophet Moses. The RCC decided on its own apart from God to create statues and bow to them. See the difference? The RCC speaks presumptuously in this case. God never told you to do it, He expressly forbade it, and yet you persist in doing it.
Many Protestants give lip service to the fact that God is all powerful, but in practice do not believe such. They believe He can only do what they think He can and no more because "it's not in the Bible"
Thus, even though Catholics may be venerating an image in the exact same way they were instructed to do so by OT prophets, it takes another prophet to tell them to do it again in order for Pteriax to get his way. Anything to justify one's presuppositions, I guess.
What a broad brush you paint with!
It is not in the exact same way, as I have explained several times.
Pteriax said:It's not a presupposition either. I cited specific verses, I gave context, etc.
Pteriax said:The fact is that statues of Mary are being idolized in direct defiance of the first and second commandments.
I said "may" hypothetically in order to show that it is based upon self-validating your own presuppositions. It would take a prophet saying the exact same thing in the present context so that you can get your way.
It is your presupposition, as you have already stated how much you hate Catholicism and equate it with paganism. Citing prooftext verses is only an exercise in the aforementioned self-validation.
What "context" did you give, considering that you just transposed the OT context of the conquest of Canaan to the present Christian context so that you could preserve your presuppositions?
But it is not being idolized, as you have been told on a number of occasions. It must be idolized, though, in order for you to maintain the aforementioned presuppositions. Everyone understands this.
Just saying it's not idolatry does not make it so. It still totally is. And as I said, if you think the second commandment had to do with the conquest of Canaan, then you must apply that to all ten commandments; as opposed to making them general rules that still apply today (IE breaking one is a sin).
No I do not see the difference. Are you now claiming that we should sit on our hands, until God sends a prophet to tell us what to do? Or how do you know that it wasn't mandated by God through a prophet? It seems that Moses did so. Or are you saying that Christian Churches are not comparable to Jewish worship buildings?Okay, God told the people to do all of that through the prophet Moses. The RCC decided on its own apart from God to create statues and bow to them. See the difference?
RCC reads and understands Scripture, and understands it, so that unlike your assertions, it doesn't conflict with Scripture.The RCC speaks presumptuously in this case. God never told you to do it, He expressly forbade it, and yet you persist in doing it.
and I also corrected you false understanding on this subject, by pointing out simply, that you are assuming much, about the capacity of those already in heaven.I never said you view her as a goddess. I said you bow to her statues and pray to her. I also said that she is not omnipresent, which is a requirement for a being to be able to answer prayers, so the RCC must think she is omnipresent. I corrected that notion by saying that only God is omnipresent. Again, I did not say that you think she is a goddess.
Show me were I said He needs anyone. Again putting words out there that are not there. One thing that the Bible is very explicit on, and that is that God LOVES to work through His Children, and makes His presence felt more through them, than through miracles. The Bible is full of stories of God's work through His Prophets and Saints. It's the way He works, so why would this be shut off when we get to heaven?No, you are limiting God. You limit Him by claiming He needs all these saints to help answer prayers and dispense grace.
When He said that through the Holy Spirit He will guide His Church into all Truth. You misunderstand the roll of a prophet. A Prophet proclaims the Word of God, this doesn't necessarily require predicting the future. The Church as a whole is God's Prophet. The church through her ministers, proclaims the Word of God. The time of the Prophets hasn't ended, in fact if anything, we are all called to be Prophets, in that we are suppose to bring God's word to the world.God said through His prophet to make certain specific images. I ask again, when did God tell the RCC through a prophet to make statues of Mary and bow to them?
Why can't God answer the prayers?
God indeed said not to make and worship graven images. Then He promptly told them to make this: Numbers 21:8That is not what I said, I bow to no man. But you gave examples that did not relate to what you were defending, which is idolatry by the way.
It means that when prayers to saints--Mary included but not the only one--that include testimonies to the ability of that saint to deliver, on their own, what is asked for or, in some cases, what supposedly was promised by them before...
...the petitioner is NOT merely venerating that saint, his memory, etc. He's attributing to him or her a power that only God has.
What's more, it isn't made any better if you say that they are just administering the distribution of benefits on behalf of God. One example is the very popular belief among Roman Catholics that Mary is the "dispenser of all graces" by which it is explained that no good thing comes to us (from God) unless Mary first approves of it!
Whatever you call it, that is a wrongful practice.
Albion, you truly do not have a full understanding of this. It is via their intercessions, not their power or ability, that prayers are answered. The key word here is intercession.
What the petitioner is attributing to the saint, is their superior relationship to the Lord, that He will answer their prayers.
Able to preserve both flesh and spirit from death she bestowed health-giving salve on bodies and souls
Just saying it is idolatry does not make it so, either. You have been told that the statue is not being worshiped, neither in the OT context nor in a Christian context. Therefore it does not break the commandment.
Everyone still understands that it must be shown to break the commandment if the aniconic, iconoclastic presuppositions of radical Protestantism are to be maintained.
Apparently you missed the word "Many" at the start of the sentence, hence no broad brush. Now had I left off the word "Many" that would be broad brushWhat a broad brush you paint with!
We could probably say the same thing about a lot of pew warming RCs.
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No I do not see the difference. Are you now claiming that we should sit on our hands, until God sends a prophet to tell us what to do? Or how do you know that it wasn't mandated by God through a prophet? It seems that Moses did so. Or are you saying that Christian Churches are not comparable to Jewish worship buildings?
RCC reads and understands Scripture, and understands it, so that unlike your assertions, it doesn't conflict with Scripture.
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