What does the Bible teach about Hell ?

[hraedisc]

to be honest, i usually only come here for a couple of hours in the evening, and sometimes i stay away for up to a week at a time, to recharge my spiritual batteries...i probably shouldn't have ventured in because i'm totally exhausted tonight and i just want to go to bed, i saw the thread and thought i'd respond to the OP, but i'm too tired right now to debate on this issue and put anything other than lethargy into it!

God Bless

No problem. Please come back and study the Bible verses that I posted. I realize that you copied and pasted and gave the link, but I respond to anyone who holds these views in that way. Take care. Good night.

 

[ukok]

It's past my bed time and i need my beauty sleep, and i need to pray that i won't go to Hell for feeling so humoured by your abundant and confused post's.

goodnight and God Bless

 

[Amatsyahu]

If HELL is a place of eternal torment then why is it cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20? That wouldnt make sense if it was needed eternally as a place of eternal torment.

 

[True Believer]

Your question arises because of the generic use of hell and an attempt to include the greek idea of eternal torment in a fiery place after death ruled over by The God Hades.
Gehenna is symbolic in Revelation of a cleansing fire the Jewish people could relate because of the fire in the valley of Hinnom a place where all of the garbage of the city was dumped and burned. the fire was kept burning at all times to both consume what it could and tp clean and keep the disease which would have developed around such a site otherwise.
Grave Haides Sheohl are all places of burial in English,Greek and Hebrew
Hell can be used in place of any of these three BUt Gehenna has a different meaning
Agape', TB

 

[Der Alte]

If HELL is a place of eternal torment then why is it cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20? That wouldnt make sense if it was needed eternally as a place of eternal torment.

Because the "death" and "hell" cast into the lake of fire, Rev. 20, are not the literal place of hell and the phenomena of death, but the angel of death and the demon of hell, Rev 6:8.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

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[LightBearer]

Because the "death" and "hell" cast into the lake of fire, Rev. 20, are not the literal place of hell and the phenomena of death, but the angel of death and the demon of hell, Rev 6:8.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​

​

According to Rev 20 the Death and Hades that are thrown into the lake of fire gave up the dead that were in them along with the sea (The sea is no demon surely). The context is resurrection from Hades and then it is destroyed or done away with. This passage therefore clearly refers to the Hades that is spoken of elswhere in the bible and not some Angel or Demon.

Revelation 20:13-14 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.

 

[Der Alte]

According to Rev 20 the Death and Hades that are thrown into the lake of fire gave up the dead that were in them along with the sea (The sea is no demon surely). The context is resurrection from Hades and then it is destroyed or done away with. This passage therefore clearly refers to the Hades that is spoken of elswhere in the bible and not some Angel or Demon.

Revelation 20:13-14 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.

That sounds reasonable except for one thing. This is from chapter 20, how can death and hades give up the dead that were in them if they were cast into the lake of fire, 14 chapters earlier, in chapter 6? The folks that made up these unscriptural doctrines don't know the scriptures? Are you sure you want to continue believing and following them?

 

[LightBearer]

That sounds reasonable except for one thing. This is from chapter 20, how can death and hades give up the dead that were in them if they were cast into the lake of fire, 14 chapters earlier, in chapter 6? The folks that made up these unscriptural doctrines don't know the scriptures? Are you sure you want to continue believing and following them?

Simple. They were cast into the lake of fire after they gave up their dead. I see nothing in chapter 6 of death and Hades being cast into the Lake of Fire.

It apears you do not know the scriptures. Are you sure you want to continue to believe your version?

 

[Der Alte]

Simple. They were cast into the lake of fire after they gave up their dead. I see nothing in chapter 6 of death and Hades being cast into the Lake of Fire.

It apears you do not know the scriptures. Are you sure you want to continue to believe your version?

One error does not a doctrine make. I certainly do want to continue the Christian version. Hell is a place and so it could possibly be thrown into a lake of fire. However, as I understand your version, death, which is not a physical thing that takes up space and can be moved from one place to another, but a condition, i.e. the cessation of life, is thrown into the lake of fire, and death dies, ceases to live. If death as an event is dead in the lake of fire how can death, die?

So once again the most logical interpretation is that the angel of death and the demon of hell are cast into the lake of fire, and sentient beings which can die, do exactly that.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

​

 

[LightBearer]

One error does not a doctrine make. I certainly do want to continue the Christian version. Hell is a place and so it could possibly be thrown into a lake of fire. However, as I understand your version, death, which is not a physical thing that takes up space and can be moved from one place to another, but a condition, i.e. the cessation of life, is thrown into the lake of fire, and death dies, ceases to live. If death as an event is dead in the lake of fire how can death, die?

So once again the most logical interpretation is that the angel of death and the demon of hell are cast into the lake of fire, and sentient beings which can die, do exactly that.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The bible clearly teaches that it is Gods will and purpose to bring an end to Death that is, Adamic death that results from sin.

At Isaiah 25:8 the prophetic promise is made that Jehovah “will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces.”

This promise is restated at Rev 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

Jesus speaks of himself as having “the keys of death and of Hades” (Re 1:18), and he uses these in releasing those held by death.
Revelation 1:18 and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des.

John 5:27-29 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice (The Son of Man, Jesus) and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

1Co 15:56 states the sting producing death is sin and so all having sin within them along with its accompanying imperfection have death working in their bodies. See Ro 7:13, 23, 24

Death is not so much an event as a condition or state.

1 Thessalonians 4:13
Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope.

Thessalonians 4:13
Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. See also Psalm 13:3; Acts 7:60; 2 Peter 3:4

It comes upon all those who have inherited sin from Adam.

Hades (the common grave of mankind) is the place where those in this condition of Adamic death are held.

The abolition of death, therefore, would require the abolition of that which produces death: sin. By the removal of the last trace of sin from obedient mankind, the authority of death will be abolished and death itself will be destroyed, and this is to be accomplished during the reign of Christ. (1Co 15:24-26)
Also during his reign he will as Rev 20 points out release/resurrect all those held captive in death (the condition) and hades (the place or grave) whether on land or sea. When all are released or resurrected and attain to human perfection and are free from the taint of sin, death, brought upon the human race by Adam’s transgression, “will be no more.” (Ro 5:12; Re 21:3, 4)
Thus death from Adamic sin will have been as it were destroyed. Once death has been destroyed or done away with, Hades the place of the dead will also cease to exist, as there will be no more people dying of Adamic sin for it to hold.

Their destruction (Death and Hades) is figuratively likened to its being hurled into a “lake of fire.”

 

[Der Alte]

The bible clearly teaches that it is Gods will and purpose to bring an end to Death that is, Adamic death that results from sin.

At Isaiah 25:8 the prophetic promise is made that Jehovah “will actually swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will certainly wipe the tears from all faces.”

This promise is restated at Rev 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.

Jesus speaks of himself as having “the keys of death and of Hades” (Re 1:18), and he uses these in releasing those held by death.

Revelation 1:18 and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des. [/font]
* * *
Hades (the common grave of mankind) is the place where those in this condition of Adamic death are held.

* * * the authority of death will be abolished and death itself will be destroyed, and this is to be accomplished during the reign of Christ. (1Co 15:24-26)

Also during his reign he will as Rev 20 points out release/resurrect all those held captive in death (the condition) and hades (the place or grave) whether on land or sea. * * * death, brought upon the human race by Adam’s transgression, “will be no more.” (Ro 5:12; Re 21:3, 4)

Thus death from Adamic sin will have been as it were destroyed. Once death has been destroyed or done away with, Hades the place of the dead will also cease to exist, as there will be no more people dying of Adamic sin for it to hold.

Their destruction (Death and Hades) is figuratively likened to its being hurled into a “lake of fire.”

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead [literal] which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them [literal]: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire [figurative]. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire [literal].​

​

How do you justify switching back and forth between literal and figurative in this passage, when it is not necessary?

You said , “the prophetic promise is made that Jehovah ‘will actually swallow up death. Is 25:8.’” The word translated swallow in that verse, baw-lah', can mean “cover, destroy, be at an end, and spend up.” There is no linguistic requirement that it be understood as actually swallowing.

Death will be ended, it will be no more, done away with. And Rev 20 can be understood literally, as I said. The angel of death and the demon of hell will be literally cast into the lake of fire, and their power to cause death (Rev 6:8) will be ended.

H1104 בּלע bâla‛ baw-lah'
A primitive root; to make away with (specifically by swallowing); generally to destroy: - cover, destroy, devour, eat up, be at end, spend up, swallow down (up).​

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[LightBearer]

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead [literal] which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them [literal]: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire [figurative]. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire [literal].
How do you justify switching back and forth between literal and figurative in this passage, when it is not necessary?

Read the passage carefully. The context and bible itself makes the distinction. It clearly states that the “Lake of Fire “ is symbolic. It means or stands for “the second death”. There is no literal lake of fire.

Hades or the common grave of mankind is the place for those who have died from Adamic sin (if you like, the first kind of death). The Lake of Fire however is symbolic of another type of death “The second death” death from which there is no hope of a resurrection. Nowhere does the bible speak of those in the lake of fire as being given up as it does of death and Hades. Thus the symbolism of fire, as fire completely destroys so are those who are cast into the (sybolic) lake of fire and therefore figuratively destroyed as if by fire (not literaly destroyed by fire).

Death will be ended, it will be no more, done away with. And Rev 20 can be understood literally, as I said. The angel of death and the demon of hell will be literally cast into the lake of fire, and their power to cause death (Rev 6:8) will be ended.

The riders you refer to here do not begin there ride or claim their victims until after the Apostle John’s day. They are future and symbolic. Rev 1: 1, 10; 1 Cor 1:8; 5:5.

This therefore raises some questions.

If as you say the angel/demon’s authority/power to cause death is brought to an end how will that accomplish Jehovah’s purpose to eliminate death completely from all mankind, considering that the rider on the pale horse had authority to kill only a forth part of the earth? In other words, are we only eliminating death from one fourth of mankind?

If only the angel/demon death/hades give up their dead which is only one fourth of those who have died and then only during Christ’s presence what hope for all the dead prior and present who are not of this fourth and who are in the literal grave (hades/sheol) and held captive in the sleep of death. Where does the bible speak of their release/resurrection?

If death/hades give up those dead in them how can they be Angel/demon? Can you be in a demon or angel?

If the rider of the fourth horse and Hades that follow are demon/angel who or what are the riders on the second and third horses?

What the bible does indicate
The fourth horseman with Hades following represent untimely death, those who die prematurely or who’s lives are cut short through such things as War, famine, disease and such during the “Lord’s day” his Parousia/presence and the conclusion of the system of things. Rev 1: 10; 1 Cor 1:8; 5:5; Matt 24:3-7


Since they have not been killed by direct Judgement from God they will have a resurrection. Thus Hades (the grave – not a demon) from which there is a resurrection follows death to claim its victims. John 5:28,29.

I see no Demons here.

 

[Der Alte]

Read the passage carefully. The context and bible itself makes the distinction. It clearly states that the “Lake of Fire “ is symbolic. It means or stands for “the second death”. There is no literal lake of fire.

Hades or the common grave of mankind is the place for those who have died from Adamic sin (if you like, the first kind of death). The Lake of Fire however is symbolic of another type of death “The second death” death from which there is no hope of a resurrection. Nowhere does the bible speak of those in the lake of fire as being given up as it does of death and Hades. Thus the symbolism of fire, as fire completely destroys so are those who are cast into the (sybolic) lake of fire and therefore figuratively destroyed as if by fire (not literaly destroyed by fire).

In this passage, Mar 9:43-48, there are three warning repeated for a total of twelve warnings. Go into hell, 3 times, fire is never quenched, 6 times, and their worm dieth not, 3 times. If there is no hell, no lake of fire what was Jesus warning about 12 times? Why did Jesus say the fire would never be quenched 6 times, if there is no literal fire? And why was Jesus talking about worms. Is Jesus concerned about the life spans of worms, or is He concerned about the condition of man? If being in the grave means nonexistence, why would Jesus tell people their worm would not die? Once a person becomes nonexistent then their worm is no longer theirs. Why would Jesus be warning people about hell, fire that is never quenched, and worms that never die if once they are in the grave they don’t exist, they are not aware of anything?

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.,​

This passage Revelation 4:11, says, “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.” If the dead are nonexistent and know nothing how can their smoke ascend up forever and ever, and they never have any rest day or night? If the dead are gone, nonexistent, unconscious, then the smoke is no longer their smoke, they have no torment.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

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[LightBearer]

I'm sorry Der Alter but you appear to have overlooked all the questions in post #32

I did you the courtesy of answering your questions how about you do the same.

I'll pop them here again for your consideration.

The riders you refer to here do not begin there ride or claim their victims until after the Apostle John’s day. They are future and symbolic. Rev 1: 1, 10; 1 Cor 1:8; 5:5.

This therefore raises some questions.

If as you say the angel/demon’s authority/power to cause death is brought to an end how will that accomplish Jehovah’s purpose to eliminate death completely from all mankind, considering that the rider on the pale horse had authority to kill only a forth part of the earth? In other words, are we only eliminating death from one fourth of mankind?

If only the angel/demon death/hades give up their dead which is only one fourth of those who have died and then only during Christ’s presence what hope for all the dead prior and present who are not of this fourth and who are in the literal grave (hades/sheol) and held captive in the sleep of death. Where does the bible speak of their release/resurrection?

If death/hades give up those dead in them how can they be Angel/demon? Can you be in a demon or angel?

If the rider of the fourth horse and Hades that follow are demon/angel who or what are the riders on the second and third horses?



LB

 

[Der Alte]

I'm sorry Der Alter but you appear to have overlooked all the questions in post #32

I did you the courtesy of answering your questions how about you do the same.

I'll pop them here again for your consideration.

The riders you refer to here do not begin there ride or claim their victims until after the Apostle John’s day. They are future and symbolic. Rev 1: 1, 10; 1 Cor 1:8; 5:5.

I don't understand what you are saying. Everything after Rev 4:1 is future to John and nothing indicates they are all symbolic. A rational and reasonable rule of Bible interpretaton is, "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense, to look for any other sense." Many people resort to making everything that contradicts their doctrine; figurative, symbolical, metaphorical, spiritual, etc.

This therefore raises some questions.

If as you say the angel/demon’s authority/power to cause death is brought to an end how will that accomplish Jehovah’s purpose to eliminate death completely from all mankind, considering that the rider on the pale horse had authority to kill only a forth part of the earth? In other words, are we only eliminating death from one fourth of mankind?

This question does not make any sense to me. There was death in the world before the angel of death was sent forth in judgement. At least one, and possibly two, other horsemen of the Apocalypse also brought death, Rev 6:2,4. Therefore it appears to me you are just playing games, making any argument you can think of.

If only the angel/demon death/hades give up their dead which is only one fourth of those who have died and then only during Christ’s presence what hope for all the dead prior and present who are not of this fourth and who are in the literal grave (hades/sheol) and held captive in the sleep of death. Where does the bible speak of their release/resurrection?

More games, twisting what I said. I did not say and the scriptures do not say that the angel of death/demon of hell will give up the dead. Here is where reason and common sense come in. Graves and the condition of death obviously cannot go through the world. And an angel or demon cannot hold dead people. The word άδης/hades is used for both grave and hell. The context determines which one it is. I'll let you figure out that part of it.

If death/hades give up those dead in them how can they be Angel/demon? Can you be in a demon or angel?

See my previous answer. If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense. The context detemines whether literal grave or hell is meant.

If the rider of the fourth horse and Hades that follow are demon/angel who or what are the riders on the second and third horses?

Since you are presuming to correct me, on what I said, I would assume that you have read Rev 6. At least one, and possibly two, of the other horsemen of the apocalypse have the power of death.

Now that brings us back to the scripture I quoted. Was Jesus use metaphors, what was their purpose. If when I die and all that means is means cessation of life, unconsciousness, lifeless masses of decaying flesh and bone in the ground, why would Jesus give 12 warnings including fire that is never quenched and worms that never die?

What is the meaning of the, smoke of their torment ascends up forever and they have no rest day or night, for dead lifeless masses of flesh in the ground?

 

[LightBearer]

I don't understand what you are saying. Everything after Rev 4:1 is future to John and nothing indicates they are all symbolic. A rational and reasonable rule of Bible interpretaton is, "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense, to look for any other sense." Many people resort to making everything that contradicts their doctrine; figurative, symbolical, metaphorical, spiritual, etc.



This question does not make any sense to me. There was death in the world before the angel of death was sent forth in judgement. At least one, and possibly two, other horsemen of the Apocalypse also brought death, Rev 6:2,4. Therefore it appears to me you are just playing games, making any argument you can think of.



More games, twisting what I said. I did not say and the scriptures do not say that the angel of death/demon of hell will give up the dead. Here is where reason and common sense come in. Graves and the condition of death obviously cannot go through the world. And an angel or demon cannot hold dead people. The word άδης/hades is used for both grave and hell. The context determines which one it is. I'll let you figure out that part of it.



See my previous answer. If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense. The context detemines whether literal grave or hell is meant.



Since you are presuming to correct me, on what I said, I would assume that you have read Rev 6. At least one, and possibly two, of the other horsemen of the apocalypse have the power of death.

Now that brings us back to the scripture I quoted. Was Jesus use metaphors, what was their purpose. If when I die and all that means is means cessation of life, unconsciousness, lifeless masses of decaying flesh and bone in the ground, why would Jesus give 12 warnings including fire that is never quenched and worms that never die?

What is the meaning of the, smoke of their torment ascends up forever and they have no rest day or night, for dead lifeless masses of flesh in the ground?

You cliamed that the Death and Hell that are destroyed/done away with in the lake of fire at Rev 20 are an Angel and Demon respectively and not what is simply taught there and is in line with revealed truth concerning Jehovahs purpose as stated for example at Rev 21:4. The condition death resulting from Adamic sin and the grave that holds them. This is what the bible clearly and simply teaches that it is God's purpose to remove these from mankind.

To use your term "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense, to look for any other sense." Angels and Demons Der Alter are Nonsense.

You can/would not answer them directly and so are trying to avoid having to do so by raising more questions.

I feel from your reply it is you are the one playing games Der Alter.

To paraphrase Jesus. If you will not answer me then neither will I answer you.

 

[Der Alte]

You cliamed that the Death and Hell that are destroyed/done away with in the lake of fire at Rev 20 are an Angel and Demon respectively and not what is simply taught there and is in line with revealed truth concerning Jehovahs purpose as stated for example at Rev 21:4. The condition death resulting from Adamic sin and the grave that holds them. This is what the bible clearly and simply teaches that it is God's purpose to remove these from mankind.

To use your term "If the plain sense makes good sense, then it is nonsense, to look for any other sense." Angels and Demons Der Alter are Nonsense.

You can/would not answer them directly and so are trying to avoid having to do so by raising more questions.

I feel from your reply it is you are the one playing games Der Alter.

To paraphrase Jesus. If you will not answer me then neither will I answer you.

I have answered everything you asked me, just because you don't like my answers, doesn't mean I didn't give any. Your temper tantrum refusing to answer me demonstrates a lot of immaturity.

Demons and angels are not nonsense, your response is. How many times does God send an angel to do His bidding in the scriptures, how many angels did Satan take with him from heaven? How many times are demons mentioned in the Bible? Oh I know everything that contradicts the doctrine from WTBS is figurative, spiritual, metaphorical, figurative. All you have to do is blindly, obediently, believe everything WTBS tells you, even if it contradicts the word of God.

And OBTW nothing I said or will say contradicts Rev 21:4. All God has to do is say death is no more and it is done. He spoke that very clearly in Rev 21:4. There is absolutely no need to understand other passages as figurative, etc. So when God said He would cast death and hell into the lake of fire that is exactly what He meant.

 

[drmmjr]

If death is physically an angel, or if hell is physically a demon or if both of them are symbolic shouldn't matter. What does matter is that both of these things will be destroyed and done away with when Jesus returns to establish the Kingdom.

 

[LightBearer]

I have answered everything you asked me, just because you don't like my answers, doesn't mean I didn't give any. Your temper tantrum refusing to answer me demonstrates a lot of immaturity.

I gave up tantrums when I was a child, decades ago.

Demons and angels are not nonsense, your response is. How many times does God send an angel to do His bidding in the scriptures, how many angels did Satan take with him from heaven? How many times are demons mentioned in the Bible? Oh I know everything that contradicts the doctrine from WTBS is figurative, spiritual, metaphorical, figurative. All you have to do is blindly, obediently, believe everything WTBS tells you, even if it contradicts the word of God.

It appears you are the immature one trying to score points by twisting what I said about Angels and Demons out of context. It is quite clear I meant with regard to Death and Hell not being Angel/Demon. Tut tut Der Alter.

And OBTW nothing I said or will say contradicts Rev 21:4. All God has to do is say death is no more and it is done. He spoke that very clearly in Rev 21:4. There is absolutely no need to understand other passages as figurative, etc. So when God said He would cast death and hell into the lake of fire that is exactly what He meant.

This statement says it all and reveals a complete lack of insight into the scripture on this matter. Lol