What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,513
7,861
...
✟1,195,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You can be carnal and still be saved

No. A Christian cannot be carnal and still be saved.
In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul was condemning certain individuals in the Corinthian church because of their behavior. Paul insults them by saying he could not speak unto them spiritual things like unto a spiritual man but he could only speak to them as if they were still carnal and unregenerate. Paul says just previously at the end of 1 Corinthians 2, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." So Paul is comparing them to being like the unregenerate or the unsaved. But what about Paul saying he has to talk to them as if they are like still babes in Christ? Well, Paul does not say that they are babes in Christ who are saved. He said he has to speak to them as if they are like babes in Christ (Who are in no doubt in need of rebuking or chastening so as to get them to repent of their sins). Peter says that there are "cursed children." He describes what these cursed children are like.

2 Pet 2:14 "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2 Pet 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;" (2 Peter 2:14-15).

Peter says these "cursed children" have forsake the right way and have gone astray and prefer the love of the wages of unrighteousness. This is the carnal Christian. They forsake God's good ways and prefer to love the wages of unrighteousness instead. Also, in Matthew 13:41-42, it describes how a person can be a part of Christ's kingdom and yet if they are working iniquity or sin, then Christ's angels will gather them out of His Kingdom at the coming future Judgment in the end and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). This means that while somebody may appear to be in Christ or His kingdom, the true test of their faith is if they have good fruit that shows that Jesus is really living within them or not. For Paul says, in 2 Corinthians 13:5, prove that Christ is in you, unless you be reprobate. How can we have an assurance in knowing Jesus? 1 John 2:3-6 is the solution. 1 John 2:3 says we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if we find that we are keeping His commandments (i.e. good fruit). For Titus 1:16 says that you can deny God by a lack of works. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

You said:
but don't think for one second there are no consequences because we are under grace.

What consequences could this really be that would truly matter?
To live is Christ and to die is gain.
Rewards? If one is with Jesus and in His Kingdom, what does one really need for any rewards?
One has got their guaranteed ticket to Heaven; That is all that matters.
Everything else is just minor and temporal and will not be all that big of a deal when looking ahead eternally.
Is not the real treasure or pearl of great price... Jesus?
Suffering in this life? Does not Scripture say that all who live Godly in Christ shall suffer persecution?
Paul had a thorn in his side. Is that not a bad consequence?
Why are Christians persecuted and then killed?


No. This is talking about spiritual death. If you were to keep reading, it says in verses 31-32,

1 Cor 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1 Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (1 Corinthians 11:31-32).

In other words, verses 31-32 is giving us the solution so as not to sleep, be sick, or weak spiritually. For it says if we judge ourselves. Why do we need to judge ourselves? So as to prevent ourselves in treating fellow believers with a lack of love by eating up all the food in fellowship gathers and or getting drunk around them. Scripture says drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Also, if one does not love their brother, they do not have eternal life abiding in them (See 1 John 3:15).

As for the word "sick" in 1 Corinthians 11:29-30: Jesus says,

"When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:17).

A doctor is to heal a person of their disease. Their disease was that they were sick by living in sin. That is why Jesus does not call the righteous, but sinners to repentance so that these sinners can live righteously. They are sick because they are living in sin and thinking that is normal (When it is not). Repentance is a cry out unto God that is always followed by the fruits of repentance (i.e. forsaking sin). Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God.
(b) Forsake your sinful ways.

When God had seen that the Ninevites had forsaken their wickeness or sin, that is when He pulled back His wrath or judgment that He was going to bring upon them.

Oh, and by the way. How is God exactly Calvinistic in this scenario? If God predestined the Ninevites to be saved, then no Wrath or Judgment should have ever placed them in any kind of danger.

As for being spiritually asleep:
Romans 11 says this of Israel,

"(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day." (Romans 11:8).

Acts 28:26 "Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27).

The converted are those who are truly able to hear and understand and bring forth good fruit.

May the Lord's good ways always be upon you.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,513
7,861
...
✟1,195,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Well, your words here are just baseless accusations. You are not seeking to discuss this topic and learning whether it is true or not. For what is the worse thing that can happen if one walks righteously in the Lord? Will not the people of God be living righteously in His Kingdom? Does not the Anti Sinless Perfection belief work against living righteously? Does it not work against that current place and people wherein dwells righteousness only?


....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Peter J Barban

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2016
1,474
973
62
Taiwan
Visit site
✟97,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Does not your fight against living righteously go against that current place and people wherein dwells righteousness only?
Now that is a baseless accusation. Do you really think that asking to see your fruit qualifies as a fight against living righteously? I'm not interested in your argument until I see your fruit and I think you are increasing revealing your fruit to us in a negative way.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,513
7,861
...
✟1,195,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

When one admits that they cannot stop sinning it is contrary to living righteously.

Think about it.


...
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
What is the definition of carnal? Because I don't think your definition is correct.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Just because people know they sin, does NOt mean they are not and do not walk righteously. That is your claim
Not ours. The judgement is real here.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,513
7,861
...
✟1,195,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The Bible says,

Rom 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:6-8).


...
 
Upvote 0

Peter J Barban

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2016
1,474
973
62
Taiwan
Visit site
✟97,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When one admits that they cannot stop sinning it is contrary to living righteously.

Think about it.
Your fortune cookie phrase is more appropriate for Confucious.

Don't glide over your false accusation against me. You said, "Does not your fight against living righteously go against that current place and people wherein dwells righteousness only?" This is not the appropriate way to engage people seeking evidence that your claims are true.

If you repent, I will accept it.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,794
✟322,485.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You don't know?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,513
7,861
...
✟1,195,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

If the Bible teaches that a believer is to stop sinning (and it does), and somebody teaches contrary to that and says they will always sin in this life, then they are fighting against what God terms as "righteousness" or "holiness" according to His Word. For in Heaven, there will be nobody there who will think the way that many believers do now (Whereby they cannot stop sinning). There will be no justification of sinning the rest of one's life in Heaven. A believer who thinks they will never stop sinning in this life will really not enjoy a place like Heaven because it is against their way of thinking now. Some believers today say they sin in thought, and deed every day. They think this is the normal life of a Christian. But it is not. God wants His people to live according to His will and He does not want them to live the rest of their time here on this Earth to the lusts of the flesh. Jesus says, blessed is He who hungers and thirsts for righteousness, for He will be filled (Matthew 5:6). If somebody is really hungering and thirsting for righteousness, they want it now and not later. 1 Peter 4:1-2 says that he that suffers in the flesh has ceased from sin; And then it says that we should live the rest of our time to the will of God and not to the lusts of the flesh. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Jesus says, a disciple is not above his master, but everyone that is perfect shall be as his master (Luke 6:40).


...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Peter J Barban

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2016
1,474
973
62
Taiwan
Visit site
✟97,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If the Bible teaches that a believer stop sinning (and it does), and somebody teaches contrary to that and says they will always sin in this life, then they are fighting against what God terms as "righteousness" or "holiness" according to His Word.
All well and good, but I have not done these things. Yet you have falsely accused me. Slandered me. Said evil about me. Without justification. You have destroyed your credibility on this forum.

Either provide evidence to back up your baseless libel or repent publically.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,513
7,861
...
✟1,195,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Same problem in James 2 were they were mistreating the poor.

Mistreating the poor and the brethren is a salvation issue. That is what James is saying in James 2 that is confirmed elsewhere in Scripture (Matthew 25:31-46) (1 John 3:10) (1 John 3:15).

James says, "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2:9).

James says, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).

James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

James says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).

James says,
Jam 1:21 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (James 1:21-22).


If you will take note that Jesus says to the church at Ephesus in Revelation 2 to repent and do the first works as to the reason why they lost their first love.

Rev 2:4 "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works."
(Revelation 2:4-5).

What are the first works?
What prevents us as Christians in making Jesus our first love?
There are several basic things in loving God when we first come to Him.
We first repent and believe on Jesus as our Savior.
We realize it is His grace that ultimately saves us and we are thankful to Him for His grace.
Another is the 1st and greatest command: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul.
We should align our life and everything it with loving God. Our every thought and deed should be aligned in loving God. We should worship God in secret and pray to Him secret every chance we get.
The 2nd greatest command would also apply here, as well (Seeing it is like unto the 1st).
We are to love our neighbor. Pray and do good unto our enemies. We are to help and love the poor.
We are to love the brethren (our brothers and sisters in Christ). Jesus said to Peter, "Do you love me?"
Then Jesus said after repeating this to him to "feed my sheep." So we are to love the brethren and feed them with the Word of God and with ministering unto them. We are to preach the gospel unto all nations. This is showing how we love all people. For we are seeking to preach the good news to change men's hearts. We help those in love who are in need. Those who are suffering and afflicted. We love God and we love others. These are the first works that the church of Ephesus was losing signt of. For if one were to do these things, the Lord will be their 1st love.

But what is unsettling about a "Sin and still be saved gospel" is that it does not teach that works is necessary so as to be right with God. Yet, Jesus says, repent and do the first works.

I hope you may come back and re-read what I have written to you so that you may carefully consider what God's Word says here.

May God bless you.
And may you please be well.



....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,513
7,861
...
✟1,195,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Well, first, you have falsely accused me several times already. You addressed me specifically when you attacked me with slanderous words (Which is against forum rules). Nowhere did I ever say in any posts about you or your status with the Lord. I always strive to speak in a third person kind of way (without using the word "you", etc.). Whether I am on the forums or not, I seek to attack the wrong belief and not the person. Do I sometimes slip up in my words? Yes. But I try to go back and edit them so as to speak in general terms about a belief and not to make it about you. My goal is to show you and all believers with Scripture as to why a particular wrong belief is not true. My focus is on Scripture; This is so as to reveal truth and my goal is not to attack you personally or to talk about you in any way whereby you may feel like I am condemning you. Scripture all on it's own should convict a person; Hence, why I primarly stick with the Scriptures instead of the tactic you have been using (Which is falsely accusing me).

For I merely plant seeds, another waters, and it is God that gives the increase.

May the Lord's love shine upon you;
And may you please be well.


...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,513
7,861
...
✟1,195,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jason0047 said:
Saints or believers are never called sinners by God. In fact, Jesus says to the believer in Matthew 7 who did wonderful works to depart from Him because he worked iniquity (Matthew 7:23). Iniquity is sin.
Really? Jesus called Peter the devil, Paul called him a hypocrite and on the night Jesus was betrayed he denied him three times.

No. I was not referring to individual believers who sin (and then obviously need to repent later of such sin). I am saying that there is nowhere in the Bible where God refers to his saints as a whole as being sinners (i.e. the body of Christ). In other words, we need a verse or passage that refers to the body of Christ as being sinners or with them being unfaithful to God in some way and yet they are still saved. Nowhere does the Bible use the specific words of saints as a whole in being sinners. The Bible calls believers "saints" for a very good reason. Also, nowhere does God say that a person is saved if they continue in their sin, either. Peter needed to repent of these sins that he had done towards his Lord; For if he did not repent of these sins, he would have been justifying serious sin and evil (and would be unsaved). 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. The solution is restoration by God. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Peter had denied Jesus. This is a serious sin that needed to be repented of. For Matthew 10:33 says, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Peter was also trying to prevent Jesus in finishing His mission in saving mankind. This would also be a serious sin because without Jesus going to the cross, we would all (including Peter) be doomed. Peter was not thinking of the things of God here. He was carnal in his thinking. But we know Peter must have repented of these things because he later was used by God in a great way (as we see in the rest of the New Testament Scriptures).

Hope you understand where I am coming from;
And may the Lord's peace rest upon you this fine day.


...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican

Hi Jason, so here you are. BTW you have mail.

I just wanted to add one type of sin to your list of three, and that is unknown sins, sins we commit unintentionally due to lack of knowledge. 1 John 1:7 talks about walking in the Spirit, and the blood of Jesus cleansing us from sin. So what sins are you going to commit while walking in the Spirit? Obviously, things the Spirit hasn't convicted of us yet. But they are still imperfections, and fall short of God's perfection. I also believe this type of sin is what 1 John 2:1 is referring to, that Jesus is our Advocate. Note, there was no mention of repentance needed. Therefore, you don't know about them. Only willful sins require repentance. Only then are they cleansed.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,513
7,861
...
✟1,195,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

You have said,

"You can be carnal and still be saved..." ~ Mark Kennedy.

"Faith is never alone but with regards to faith that brings salvation it is apart from works."
~ Mark Kennedy.​

My response:
Well, your reply here does not make sense in light of these two other statements. You appear to be suggesting that Matthew 7:23 is in direct context to Matthew 25:41-46 (in regards to the believer who did not help the poor in this life). While it is certainly possible that the believer in Matthew 7:23 did not help the poor, it does not specifically state that this is the type of sin or iniquity they committed exactly. Jesus simply said they worked iniquity. "Iniquity can be any sin." Yes, there does appear to be a loose connection between Matthew 7:23 and Matthew 25:41-46. For a person who visits the stranger does imply that they know that stranger (i.e. they know Jesus). But I do not see how the connection between Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 helps you in any way here. Helping the poor implies works and it is said in Matthew 25 that by not helping the poor, it will lead one to going away into everlasting punishment. So your statement that a Christian can be carnal or they can be saved by faith alone without works is simply not true. After being saved by God's grace, a Christian has to also maintain good works such as helping the poor in this life. If not, then there will be serious consequences to their soul in the after life if they refuse to help the poor here upon this Earth.

Also, Jesus identifies with those who are righteous. So when a person sins, all their previous righteousness will no longer be remembered. Hence, Jesus will no longer know them anymore as per Matthew 7:23. Ezekiel 18 says,

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Ezekiel 18:24).

Also, just helping the poor does not mean a person knows Jesus. Unbelieving rich actors help the poor and do all kinds of great acts of charity. But that does not mean they know Jesus. So it is more than just helping the poor (While that is an important part of our faith). We can have an assurance of knowing Jesus if we find that we are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). He that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).

Jesus is the source of our salvation. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12). In other words, if there is no Jesus living on the inside of a believer, then they are not saved according to this verse; And if one is not keeping God's Commmands, then they are a liar and the truth (Jesus) is not in them. For the assurance of whether we know Jesus or not is in keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3).

I hope this helps you to see where I am coming from.
May the Lord's goodness be upon you;
And please be well.


...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,513
7,861
...
✟1,195,418.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi Jason, so here you are. BTW you have mail.

Well, I was not sure of what to say to you (at the time). I do not know where he is at; He lives in Canada. I live in the States; And we have never met personally. While I would like to be closer in fellowship with him (even online), that is not a part of God's plan at this time. He has a street ministry, so I imagine that he is keeping busy lately with that. In the mean time, we should keep our prayers with him indeed in His service to the Lord.

You said:
I just wanted to add one type of sin to your list of three, and that is unknown sins, sins we commit unintentionally due to lack of knowledge.

I would classify this under sins that do not lead unto spiritual death. These would be minor faults or small transgressions and it would not be the types of sins like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.


Yes, I think we agree that sins that we may not be aware of right away are imperfections and falling short of the glory of God.

You said:
I also believe this type of sin is what 1 John 2:1 is referring to, that Jesus is our Advocate. Note, there was no mention of repentance needed. Therefore, you don't know about them. Only willful sins require repentance. Only then are they cleansed.

I disagree. 1 John 2:1 is tied to 1 John 1:9. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. Peter said to Simon to repent of his wickedness in trying to pay for the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Peter told him to pray that God would forgive him (Acts of the Apostles 8:22). So this was a serious sin that Simon needed to confess by way of prayer to God. Even in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, we see the son desiring repentance before his father and heaven because of his riotous living (i.e. his exceeding sinful life) (Luke 15:11-32).

Also, John's epistle continues to talk about being in darkness if one hates their brother (1 John 2:9); For he that hates his brother is like a murderer, and no eternal life abides within them (1 John 3:15). So serious sin is the topic at hand here. For even 1 John 2:2 deals with Christ being the propitation for the sins of the whole world. This would not be just minor transgressions or faults alone in regards to 1 John 2:1. This would include all sins, especially the major and or more serious sins.


...
 
Upvote 0

1stcenturylady

Spirit-filled follower of Christ
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2017
11,189
4,193
76
Tennessee
✟431,122.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican

Hear me out, 1 John 1:9 is for becoming a Christian, or for those who commit a serious sin and need to come back to God. It follows 1 John 1:8 which are those who are still sinners and have never repented, let alone turned their lives over to Christ. Repentance is required. But 1 John 2:1 does not coincide to 1 John 1:9, but to 1 John 1:7 for those walking in the Spirit; they have an Advocate because they belong to Him. Neither verses 1:7 or 2:1 show sins that require repentance. 1 John 1:9 are for those at the beginning of their walk. That is when you are cleansed of ALL sin.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Peter J Barban

Well-Known Member
Mar 29, 2016
1,474
973
62
Taiwan
Visit site
✟97,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Your original post has been quietly edited to remove the slander. Thanks for that. I was just checking it again before appealing to the moderators. So, good timing! However, you still owe me an apology. Apologizing for false accusation is what a godly person would do. Are you godly enough to publically apologize for your false accusation against me?
 
Upvote 0