What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

ToBeLoved · Jul 27, 2017

Jason0047 said:
There are many days I don't sin those types of sins that lead unto spiritual death. Are you saying this is not normal for you?
...

There is nothing in the Bible that talks about what you have mentioned here. There is no categorizing of sin or the sins that lead unto spiritual death, as you call them. As a matter of fact, Christ has given us spiritual life and no sin can put us back into a state of spiritual death as far as our eternity. The New Covenant is sealed by God with the Holy Spirit and we are heirs of the Father until the Day of Redemption when we recieve our full inheritance.

This is extra-Biblical and is not in the Bible, but your own theory. But I've mentioned this a few times already but you keep using your theory like its scripture.

mark kennedy · Jul 27, 2017

Jason0047 said:
The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfectionism:

Sinless Perfectionism is the goal of our Sanctification. It is yet another Biblical doctrine that is commonly misunderstood and or denied amongst Eternal Security Proponents or those who do not believe that “Sin Cannot Separate a Believer From God.” Here is a...

List of Verses For Sinless Perfectionism (a.k.a. Entire Sanctification) in Scripture:

The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).

Enoch was translated and did not see death because he walked with the LORD and pleased GOD. For the author of Hebrews says, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” (Hebrews 11:5); And Moses had written in the Torah, “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24).

Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).

Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).

Jesus says, “If you want to be perfect sell your possessions and give them to the poor” (Matthew 19:21).

We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).

Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).

James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).

Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).

Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).

Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).

Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT). Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34). John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 1:8).

Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).

Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB). Paul also says, “But now that you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves, the benefit you reap is sanctification, and the result is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 ISV).

Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).

Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?

Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).

John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)

John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4). John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).

Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).

Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).

Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4). James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).

Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Paul says, “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,” (Ephesians 4:1).

Paul says, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4). Paul also says, “For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

Zacharias says, “That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:74-75).

Paul says, “And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Colossians 1:20-23).

Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).

Paul says,“Men, brothers, I have conducted-myself with all good conscience before God up to this day” (Acts 23:1 DLNT)

Paul says, “This work must continue until we are all joined together in the same faith [or all reach unity in the faith] and in the same knowledge of the Son of God. We must become like a mature person [or the perfect Man; Christ], growing until we become like Christ and have his perfection [ to the measure of the stature of Christ’s fullness ].” (Ephesians 4:13 EXB).

Paul says, “It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ” (Colossians 1:28 NABRE).

Paul says, “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2).

Paul says, “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11).

Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

The author Hebrews says, “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14).

Paul says, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27). Jesus says, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” (John 17:17-19). For Jesus says, “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3).

John says, “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).

Paul says, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Jesus says, “So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:10-13). A Multitude of People in Heaven says, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.(Revelation 19:7-8). Note: the fine linen that represents the righteousness of the saints is the same wedding garment that the man at the wedding did not have on.

Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

John says, “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

Real world example:

An alcoholic can condone his alcohol by him saying he can drink occasionally on his way to being sober free. But he will never be sober free because he has no intention of stopping. He hoping one day somebody else will stop him.

If GOD is perfect in all He does, then why cannot GOD perfect a believer while they still live?

Are they saying they are more powerful than GOD?

For why would a person want to continue in sin on any level?
For if a person knew of a way to stop sinning so as to please God, why would they not want to take that chance?

For would not the opposite of Sinless Perfectionism be Sinful Imperfectionism? Is there such a thing as a “sinning saint”? What about a righteous sinner?

But some will object and say they believe that they are for living righteously. But how much should one live righteously? Are we to live righteously at about 90%? How about 80%? 75%? 20%? Is there a percentage that we do not cross the line at?

Anyways, here are some more….

Common Objections to Sinless Perfectionism (With Answers That Resolve them):

#1. Objection: So if a believer has not reached a state of Sinless Perfectionism, does that mean they are not saved?

Answer: No. Sinless Perfectionism is merely the goal for a believer’s life (Philippians 3:12). The Scriptures talk about how this is a possible goal for us to achieve while we are still yet alive. But the problem with denying the Bible’s teaching on Sinless Perfectionism is that it suggest that a person's goal or aim is not to try and be perfect before GOD but it is to still hold onto sin on some level (even if it is a sin done on rare occasion). For can a serial killer who comes to Christ still murder as long as he does so every ten years (chocking it up to his will is weak and that even believers sin)? Does not Paul essentially say that we used to be sinners? (Ephesians 2:2-3, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Colossians 3:5-7, Ephesians 4:17-24).

#2. Objection: So are you sinless?

Answer: This of course is an ad hominem or a verbal attack that is not founded upon God’s Word. For one, the Scriptures teach that a person can get right with GOD and have their past sins forgiven by coming to Jesus and repenting of their sins to Him. From that point on, they allow Jesus to do the good work within them. Two, not all sin is the same. In fact, there are three different types of sins.

(a) Sins that lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins unto death are sins that lead to the second death that are not repented of. Such sins would be murder, hate, whoremongering, and lying, etc. For according to Revelation 21:8, these are the type of sins that lead unto to the second death (a.k.a. Lake of Fire) (Also see Galatians 5:19-21, Colossians 3:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11).

(b) Sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

Sins not unto death are sins in Revelation 21:8 that are repented of. They are also the types of sins like not being baptized (1 Peter 3:21), or causing divisions within the body (1 Corinthians 3), and hidden or secret faults (Psalms 19:12).

(c) Unforgivable sins.

Unforgivable sins are sins that cannot be forgiven. These types of sins would be speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31-32), committing suicide and staying dead (1 John 3:15) (1 Corinthians 3:16-17), and taking the mark of the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).

#3. Objection: I don’t see anyone who has stopped sinning or who is living righteously.

Answer: First, we are called to live by faith and not by sight. For without faith it is impossible to please GOD. Second, if you lived during Noah’s time in a region that was very far away from Noah, you wouldn’t have been able to see anyone living righteously around you. Yet, the Scriptures say that Noah was a preacher of righteousness and the whole world was destroyed for their wickedness as an example to all those who would live ungodly thereafter.

#4. Objection: It’s self righteousness to want to overcome sin.

Answer: Is it really? Does not God call us to be holy as He? Also, say a person struggles with the sin of drug abuse or sex addiction outside of marriage. Would you say that a person is being self righteous who wants to overcome these sins? Surely not. Overcoming sin is merely a desire to be closer to GOD and in pleasing Him. People who are self righteous like the Pharisees were criticized by Jesus for not keeping God’s Word. They appeared to others as being righteous, but inwardly they were wicked. Jesus did not say to them that they needed to have a mere belief alone on Him. Jesus told them to clean the inside of the cup.

#5. Objection: It is impossible to stop sinning.

Answer: This is simply not true. There are many verses that suggest that a believer can stop sinning. Also, when the disciples asked who can be saved when they found out that rich men cannot be saved, Jesus said, “With men this is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible.” Meaning, that GOD can change the heart of a man (if he is willing to come to Him). Meaning, the LORD can help people to overcome their sin. For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (not just on the cross, but in your life, too).

#6. Objection: Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, 1 John 1:8 does not say that a believer will always be abiding in some kind of sin. That is not what it is talking about. 1 John 3:4 says, "sin is transgression of the Law." Breaking a Law is breaking God's Commandments. 1 John 2:4 says if a person breaks God's Commandments (i.e. if they sin) and they say they know Him, they are a liar and the truth is not in Him. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. So 1 John 1:8 cannot be saying you will always be breaking God's Commandments or sinning at some point in your life. Then what is 1 John 1:8 saying?

Well, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus.

#7. Objection: Does not Paul say he struggled with sin in Romans 7?

Answer: Well, in the majority of Romans 7, Paul is recounting the experience of the Israelite or Jew's history with the keeping of the Law. Paul is Jewish and he was a Pharisee, so he also included an account of his own personal struggle in trying to keep the Law (while as a Pharisee before he became a Christian).

(a) Romans 7:5 deals with Paul and other ex-Law keeper’s struggle (who are now Christian) in trying to keep the Law.

(b) Romans 7:7-13 Paul speaks from the perspective of Israelite history and experience with Old Testament Law. Paul uses the word “I” in reference to the Israelite receiving of the Law of Moses. Note: This is not the first time Paul uses the word “I” in reference to somebody else’s experience (See Galatians 2:18).

(c) Romans 7:14-24 speaks of Paul and the other ex-Law-keeper’s own personal struggle (who are now Christian) with trying to obey the Law before knowing Jesus Christ.

(b) In Romans 7:25, Paul then transitions the conversation that with Jesus Christ he can then be delivered from the body of death that controlled him as a part of his old religious life as a Pharisee and a Jew (See Romans 7:24-25).

5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands], did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments], that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit [i.e. the Commands by Jesus and His followers in the New Testament], and not in the oldness of the letter [i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commandments].
(Romans 7:5-6).

For Romans 8:2 mentions two laws.

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).

There is...

(a) The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (i.e. A New Covenant Law).
Which is walking after the Spirit in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

(b) The Law of Sin and Death (i.e. An Old Covenant Law).
This was the Old Testament Law that could condemn you by capital punishment or with physical death. Hence, why it is called the Law of Sin and Death.

In Romans 8:4, obeying the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus helps us to fulfill the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law, which is to love your neighbor (See Romans 13:8-10).

Side Note:

Oh, and also Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is sold under sin and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is clearly speaking from two different perspectives here.

#8. Objection: Does not Matthew 6:12 tell us to forgive us our debts which is a part of the Lord’s Prayer?

Answer: Well, I used to think that the Lord’s prayer was a daily prayer for all believers (to be prayed as an outline) over the course of our whole lives. But after examining the Scriptures, this is simply not so. First, of all, it does not say it is a daily prayer. Second, while this prayer can be prayed in a daily manner, it is a prayer for new believers in the faith. It is a starter prayer that helps a new believer to walk uprightly and give glory to GOD and in seeking His will for their life because the disciples asked how should they pray. Forgive us our debts (sins) as we forgive our debtors (i.e. those who sin against us) may not always apply. There may be a day where nobody sins against you. Also, what about verse 13? If we pray not to be led into temptation and ask GOD to deliver us from evil and GOD answers that prayer, are we going to keep praying for GOD to deliver us from evil when He has answered our prayer in being delivered from evil? In other words, it does not make any sense to pray for something that GOD will never give to you in this life.

#9. Objection: Does not Romans 3:23 say that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?

Answer: First, Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation thru faith in Christ (Justification) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holiness) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

For Romans 3:11 says,

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
(Romans 3:11).

How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).

#10. Objection: Does not Ecclesiastes 7:20 say there is not a just man upon earth that does good and sins not?

Answer: Well, here is what Ecclesiastes 7:20 says in the Good News Translation:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 GNT
"There is no one on earth who does what is right all the time and never makes a mistake."

In other words, this is speaking of the fact that a believer may do things that would not be classified as a sin that leads unto death (i.e. the Second Death or the Lake of Fire). Mistakes would fall under the category of hidden or secret faults as mentioned in Psalm 19:12. This is not talking about serious sins that lead unto spiritual death like lying, hating, stealing, murdering, fornicating, and getting drunk, etc.

Also, this was during the time of the Old Testament, too (See Hebrews 11:40)

#11. Objection: Does not Ephesians 2:8-9, and Titus 3:5 teach against Sinless Perfectionism?

Answer: Well, when we read these types of verses in Scripture, we have to also read James 2:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14 to get a balanced view of Scripture. In other words, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are talking about Initial Salvation or how we are ultimately saved (Justification) which is by repentance and a belief in Jesus. James 2:17, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 12:14 are talking about your allowance in letting Jesus to do good works thru your life (i.e. Sanctification or holiness). Salvation is a person named Jesus. So if a person abides in Christ, they are saved and good fruit will be the proof in the pudding that Christ truly lives within them or not.

#12. Objection: Does not confessing our sins to the LORD in 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 mean we will never be sinless?

Answer: Having an advocate that we can confess our sins to does mean we trivialize sin or not treat it as seriously. Confessing sins goes hand in hand with forsaking sin (1 John 1:7).

Yes, even the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee teaches that GOD’s grace is there for us if we do honestly sin, but the other lesson of the parable (that most people miss) is that the pharisee did not even humble himself to confess his sin in the first place. Nowhere does this parable teach that a person will always sin. It is clear from Jesus’s encounters with the Pharisees that they did not repent to GOD of their sins and they were not living righteously. For Jesus called them hypocrites.

Jesus said the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (Matthew 12:41). If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to cry out to GOD and to forsake their sin. When the people had turned from their wickedness, then GOD had decided to not bring wrath or Judgment upon them.

What is the point of confession if a person is going to just sin again?

Can a husband still cheat on his spouse the rest of his life on occasion to his wife as long as he just says he is sorry? Surely not. It is the same with GOD. For GOD takes certain sins very seriously. If a person minimizes sin by saying to themselves that they are just going to sin at some point in the future because they cannot help it, then they are condoning sin (Which is wrong). In fact, GOD would have to agree with a person's thinking that it is okay for them to sin again in the future with the idea that the LORD is going to save them. But can GOD agree with sin? Surely not. While GOD can be merciful and while He can forgive a lot, if a person goes into their walk with GOD thinking they are just bound to sin against Him at some point in the future, then that is exactly what they are going to do. They have already made up their mind to sin (Which is wrong).

In conclusion, I will leave the reader with the following verse.

“An unthinking person believes everything, but the prudent one thinks before acting.” (Proverbs 14:15 ISV).

...

First of all Jason you should have been a Catholic, you would love St. Thomas Aquinas. More importantly there is no such thing a 'sinless perfection' doctrine. There is something called 'entire sanctification' that came out of the Wesleyan Methodist/holiness movement. John Wesley went through a rough time at Addersgate where he was Pastor. He was worried that he wasn't saved because he didn't see the fruit of the Holy Spirit in his life. Charles Spurgeon called him, 'the prince of the Arminians' because his theology wasn't called Methodist, or Holiness yet, it was still called plain old Arminian. Anyway, the proposition is simply this, if the believer could do everything from a motive of pure love (agape), such a person would be sinless. This second work of grace, when you get through all the semantics and arguments is really nothing more then Christian maturity. Recently I did a comparison of 'Theosis' of the Eastern Orthodox persuasion, 'Theosis And Wesleyan 'entire Sanctification', the similarities are striking.

The thing is we cannot, in this lifetime, ever be entirely sanctified because we will still have unredeemed flesh until the resurrection. The redemption of the purchased price the Apostle Paul calls it in Ephesians 1. To make a long discussion short, being able to bear fruit and walk in a manner worthy of our calling. No one wants that for us any more then God himself, it's what we are saved for.

I've known more Christians, good solid evangelicals and fundamentalists that know their Bibles but somehow the idea that they are sinners seems to have alluded them. God told Moses:

if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'… (Deut. 30:10-12)

Somehow we have gotten the mistaken impression that the requirements of the Law are somehow abolished, and truly the written code was nailed to the cross. But it's still required but in order to fulfill the promise of the Law and the gospel we must understand, that we are sinners. Does Paul contradict Moses here? No, in fact he quotes him:

But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”(that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:6-9)

We don't have to go looking for righteousness, God provided it in his Word. The Law bears witness to the righteousness of God but there is a problem:

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature" a slave to the law of sin. (Romans 7:21-25)

I hope you'll forgive the length of the quotes but context is important. So what's the problem here? God tells us that the Commandments, starting with the first ten, isn't too hard to do and Paul is telling us that he is (not was) a slave to the law of sin.

I told you all of that to tell you this, we are at war with sin and losing every battle. This righteousness witnessed in the Law and Prophets is available to us by grace through faith. Yes, righteousness, holiness and good works are available to us but not until you turn to God with 'if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.' (Deut. 30:10)

A fine exposition brother, would to God more Christians had you enthusiasm for study. When considering these things let us never forget, we are never closer to justification then when we pray, God have mercy on me a sinner. That, as paradoxical as it might seem, is what equips us for ministry. We are saved by grace, sanctified by grace and build up the body of Christ by the gifts of grace. Let's be care though when considering our Arminian and Eastern Orthodox brethren, they just want what all Christians should desire above all things. Freedom from sin, manifest in their lives, in vital and practical ways. That's not necessarily a works righteousness, after careful consideration I've come to the conclusion that what they are describing with 'entire sanctification' and 'theosis' is really nothing more then Christian maturity. What's wrong with that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Bible Highlighter · Jul 27, 2017

As for a certain poster's claim about how no Christian Scientists existed in the early days of the New Testament: Well, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for not keeping God's laws. The Pharisees believed that they were right with God because of their lineage to Abraham. Sort of like a sin and still be gospel that is being pushed today in the churches. Also, John was warning the brethren against the gnostic beliefs in his 1st epistle for the fact that they said that they knew God and yet they did not keep His commandments (See 1 John 2:4).

"There is nothing new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

...

Bible Highlighter · Jul 27, 2017

mark kennedy said:
First of all Jason you should have been a Catholic, you would love St. Thomas Aquinas.

Well, I see Catholicism as just as wrong as I do Calvinism and Eternal Security. I could write for days non stop (with a fervent passion by God's Spirit) of why I think of how all these three beliefs are exceptionally wrong both biblically and morally. So no. You are way off base and not even close.

Note: I merely choose not to speak out against Catholicism here at CF because I realize I could get banned for doing so. For I tried doing so before, and it did not work out so well for me. So I have to pick and choose my battles. But I have argued very strongly against Catholism on two other Christian forums.

Actually, what you are failing to understand about what I believe is:

#1. I believe strongly in Sola Scriptura. I have written a very long point by point Biblical defense on Sola Scriptura here at CF. Outside of the New Testament, there are no church traditions. If it a teaching or ordinance (like baptism or the Lord's supper) doesn't exist in the New Testament, then believers are not to follow that tradition or ordinance. We should follow what God's Word says and not what a church says. In fact, this is the reason why I am against the traditional church today. For it does not resemble anything we see in the New Testament.

#2. Jesus saves us both in Justification and in Sanctification;

(a) Justification is believing in Jesus as your Savior and believing that He had died and was risen on your behalf.
(b) Sanctification is allowing the Lord to do the good work within your life. So a believer cannot boast or pat themselves on the back and scream in the mirror, "Hey everybody! Come and see how good I look!"
Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). It is why the 24 elders cast down their crowns before Jesus because it was Christ working in them.

You said:
More importantly there is no such thing a 'sinless perfection' doctrine.

This is a huge error on your part. We are not talking about one or two verses here. There are tons of verses that relate to Sinless Perfection. You only believe this way because you do not want there to be Sinless Perfectionism.
Jesus says "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).
God says, "Be ye holy because I am holy." (1 Peter 1:16).
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).
"...dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Do you really believe in cleansing yourself from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit, PERFECTING HOLINESS in the FEAR of God?

See, I just read that verse and believe it.
Are you seeking to change what this verse says because you do not like what it says?

You said:
There is something called 'entire sanctification' that came out of the Wesleyan Methodist/holiness movement. John Wesley went through a rough time at Addersgate where he was Pastor. He was worried that he wasn't saved because he didn't see the fruit of the Holy Spirit in his life. Charles Spurgeon called him, 'the prince of the Arminians' because his theology wasn't called Methodist, or Holiness yet, it was still called plain old Arminian. Anyway, the proposition is simply this, if the believer could do everything from a motive of pure love (agape), such a person would be sinless. This second work of grace, when you get through all the semantics and arguments is really nothing more then Christian maturity. Recently I did a comparison of 'Theosis' of the Eastern Orthodox persuasion, 'Theosis And Wesleyan 'entire Sanctification', the similarities are striking.

My encouragment to you is stop listening to men and just read the Word of God.
People can say all kinds of things about what happened in the past.
The true test of truth is the Word of God and not what men have tried to reimagine what Scripture says.
Sure, the term "Entire Sanctification" might have been invented in recent history, but the doctrinal truth existed since the words of Jesus. You need to get alone with the Word of God and ask God to show you the truth and not what men have taught you.

You said:
The thing is we cannot, in this lifetime, ever be entirely sanctified because we will still have unredeemed flesh until the resurrection.

This is simply not true. The Scripture very plainly tell us that we can cease from sin and that we are to live the rest of our time here (on this Earth) to the will of God and not to the lusts of the flesh.

""Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

You said:
The redemption of the purchased price the Apostle Paul calls it in Ephesians 1. To make a long discussion short, being able to bear fruit and walk in a manner worthy of our calling. No one wants that for us any more then God himself, it's what we are saved for.

How can you walk worthy of your calling and doing God's will if you are also sinning? It is not God's will that you sin.

You said:
I've known more Christians, good solid evangelicals and fundamentalists that know their Bibles but somehow the idea that they are sinners seems to have alluded them.

Saints or believers are never called sinners by God. In fact, Jesus says to the believer in Matthew 7 who did wonderful works to depart from Him because he worked iniquity (Matthew 7:23). Iniquity is sin.
Jesus did not say, "Depart from me because I did not choose you to be saved."
Jesus did not say, "Depart from me because you did not have a belief alone on me."
In fact, Matthew 7:26-27 makes the point about how if we do not do what Jesus says, we are like fools who built our house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

You said:
God told Moses:

if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'… (Deut. 30:10-12)

Somehow we have gotten the mistaken impression that the requirements of the Law are somehow abolished, and truly the written code was nailed to the cross. But it's still required but in order to fulfill the promise of the Law and the gospel we must understand, that we are sinners. Does Paul contradict Moses here? No, in fact he quotes him:

But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”(that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:6-9)

No. The Old Covenant is no longer a binding Covenant anymore. We are New Covenant believers. There are "Eternal Moral Laws" that God created for man since the beginning and that carried on through the writings of the Torah and then continued into the writings of the New Covenant or New Testament. But these are "Eternal Moral Laws" for us. The ceremonial laws and judicial laws of the Law of Moses or the Torah is what is no longer binding for believers today. Remember, Paul said in Romans 3:1, what profit is there in circumcision? Paul also said, if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). God's moral laws still apply today. For Jesus said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). John says if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15).

You said:
We don't have to go looking for righteousness,

Paul argued against the false Pharisee religion that was all works to be saved and no grace or a Savior.
Paul pushed Jesus for salvation; From there, good works will then flow through their life because it is Jesus doing the good works through them.

You said:
God provided it in his Word. The Law bears witness to the righteousness of God but there is a problem:

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature" a slave to the law of sin. (Romans 7:21-25)

I hope you'll forgive the length of the quotes but context is important. So what's the problem here? God tells us that the Commandments, starting with the first ten, isn't too hard to do and Paul is telling us that he is (not was) a slave to the law of sin.

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

In Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin, and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is set free from sin.
So unless Paul has a split personality disorder, he is intentionally speaking from two different perspectives. In fact, Romans 8 says this,

3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

What righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us?
Is this by believing or doing nothing?
No, it is by walking after the Spirit.
Paul is referring to the "Eternal Moral Law" when he says "righteousness of the Law."
In Romans 13:8-10 we see Paul says we fulfill the Law (like do not covet, do not murder, etc.) by loving our neighbor.

Source:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

You said:
I told you all of that to tell you this, we are at war with sin and losing every battle. This righteousness witnessed in the Law and Prophets is available to us by grace through faith. Yes, righteousness, holiness and good works are available to us but not until you turn to God with 'if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.' (Deut. 30:10)

That is not what Deuteronomy 30:10 says.
Also, a person cannot do their own righteousness.
It is the Lord who works through them and they can only have the Lord (Jesus) if they ask Him into their heart, and they ask to be forgiven, and they believe that He died and was risen again on their behalf.

You said:
A fine exposition brother, would to God more Christians had you enthusiasm for study. When considering these things let us never forget, we are never closer to justification then when we pray, God have mercy on me a sinner.

In the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, this was not a justification of forever living in a sinful lifestyle so we can just mindlessly pay lip service to God the rest of our lives. For if one is not actually reforming to change and put any evil out of their lives at some point, then they are not really sorry. For example: If a man cheats on his wife and says he is sorry to her; Do you think things will work out if he has no real intention of stopping and he just keeps saying he is sorry? No.

The problem in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee is that the Pharisee did not repent of his sins first. That is why he was not humble. He did not first get his heart right with God. For if he did, he would have tried to help the Tax Collector to overcome his sins by praying for him, and helping him to employ God's good ways in reforming his life.

You said:
That, as paradoxical as it might seem, is what equips us for ministry. We are saved by grace, sanctified by grace and build up the body of Christ by the gifts of grace. Let's be care though when considering our Arminian and Eastern Orthodox brethren, they just want what all Christians should desire above all things. Freedom from sin, manifest in their lives, in vital and practical ways. That's not necessarily a works righteousness, after careful consideration I've come to the conclusion that what they are describing with 'entire sanctification' and 'theosis' is really nothing more then Christian maturity. What's wrong with that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

We do not teach the same thing. You want the results of Sanctification but you fight against it by saying that you can sin and still be saved on some level. But it doesn't work like that. All believers have a choice. A believer can choose right now to stop sinning and ask Jesus to help them and believe His Word or they can just believe that type of doctrine that caters to their sin and wrong doing. A believer can stop sinning right now. It's possible with God and His Word.

All they have to do is...

Believe.

...

mark kennedy · Jul 27, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Well, I see Catholicism as just as wrong as I do Calvinism and Eternal Security. I could write for days non stop (with a fervent passion by God's Spirit) of why I think of how all these three beliefs are exceptionally wrong both biblically and morally. So no. You are way off base and not even close.

Note: I merely choose not to speak out against Catholicism here at CF because I realize I could get banned for doing so. For I tried doing so before, and it did not work out so well for me. So I have to pick and choose my battles. But I have argued very strongly against Catholism on two other Christian forums.

Actually, what you are failing to understand about what I believe is:

#1. I believe strongly in Sola Scriptura. I have written a very long point by point Biblical defense on Sola Scriptura here at CF. Outside of the New Testament, there are no church traditions. If it a teaching or ordinance (like baptism or the Lord's supper) doesn't exist in the New Testament, then believers are not to follow that tradition or ordinance. We should follow what God's Word says and not what a church says. In fact, this is the reason why I am against the traditional church today. For it does not resemble anything we see in the New Testament.

#2. Jesus saves us both in Justification and in Sanctification;

(a) Justification is believing in Jesus as your Savior and believing that He had died and was risen on your behalf.

All Christians believe that are they are not Christians and by the way, I had a formal debate against a Catholic seminary student so I'm not stranger to the problems with RCC theology. Justification is by grace through faith and no Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant denies that. When they do they are denying the gospel.

(b) Sanctification is allowing the Lord to do the good work within your life. So a believer cannot boast or pat themselves on the back and scream in the mirror, "Hey everybody! Come and see how good I look!"
Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). It is why the 24 elders cast down their crowns before Jesus because it was Christ working in them.

All true except for one thing, your paragraph there says nothing about sanctification.

This is a huge error on your part. We are not talking about one or two verses here. There are tons of verses that relate to Sinless Perfection. You only believe this way because you do not want there to be Sinless Perfectionism.
Jesus says "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).
God says, "Be ye holy because I am holy." (1 Peter 1:16).
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).
"...dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Not that your interested but the word for 'perfect' is teleo, it's the idea of the end to which something is directed toward. The point of our salvation is that we will be presented to God the righteousness of God in Christ, holy and blameless. This is not going to happen in this life because until the resurrection we have unredeemed flesh. What we do have is the new nature and if we avoid the hazards of a hard heart, fear of persecution, the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches we will bear fruit.

Do you really believe in cleansing yourself from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit, PERFECTING HOLINESS in the FEAR of God?

Do you? I'm not Catholic, Arminian nor do I embrace the Wesleyan 'entire sanctification' doctrine as an article of faith. It's a propositional logic that emphasized the work of the Holy Spirit and bearing fruit to the glory of God. That's not sinless perfection, that's actually Christian maturity.

See, I just read that verse and believe it.
Are you seeking to change what this verse says because you do not like what it says?

I'm not changing anything and I noticed you completely ignored my exposition. I don't just quote verses at random and out of context, I certainly don't go around trampling Christian theology under my feet without bothering to learn the basic tenants.

My encouragment to you is stop listening to men and just read the Word of God.

You can do both, holding the Scriptures up as a standard and still have a sensitivity to where people are coming from.

People can say all kinds of things about what happened in the past.
The true test of truth is the Word of God and not what men have tried to reimagine what Scripture says.
Sure, the term "Entire Sanctification" might have been invented in recent history, but the doctrinal truth existed since the words of Jesus. You need to get alone with the Word of God and ask God to show you the truth and not what men have taught you.

Justification by grace through faith and sanctification through the work of the Holy Spirit has always been primary theological issues. The New Testament has always embraced the New Testament witness as the Apostles doctrine. Your creating a false dilemma here, theology and Scripture are not mutually exclusive.

This is simply not true. The Scripture very plainly tell us that we can cease from sin and that we are to live the rest of our time here (on this Earth) to the will of God and not to the lusts of the flesh.

It is true, the Scriptures couldn't be more clear on this:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13,14)

The redemption of the purchase price is the resurrection.

The sun has one degree of splendor, the moon another, and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. (1 Cor. 15:41-43)

Our bodies are still corruptible right up until the resurrection. You should spend more time on the resurrection because this is not an elusive doctrine.

""Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

Ok Peter, how do we do that?

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

Part of it is revealed in the gospel, the moving of the Holy Spirit, being born again of incorruptible seed to the glory of the Father. The rest of it remains to be revealed at the end of the age when the Church is raised. That is revealed in 'the last time',

How can you walk worthy of your calling and doing God's will if you are also sinning? It is not God's will that you sin.

You can be carnal and still be saved but don't think for one second there are no consequences because we are under grace. When the rich Corinthians were mistreating the poor believers at their love feasts Paul had this to say about it:

For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. (1 Cor. 11:29,30)

They were not discerning the body of Christ, that Paul makes clear from chapter 12-14, the body of Christ is the church. Mistreating other believers is something God takes personally; some of you are ill and some of you sleep, which means the have died. God can and will destroy the body to save the soul. Same problem in James 2 were they were mistreating the poor. In Jesus letter to the Ephesian church he says great job with you hard work in doctrine and fighting off false teachers. There is just one problem, you have left your first love. Jesus never says what that was, but I think I know, the church. How do you show your love for Christ in the world? You build up the body of Christ and the Ephesians were a thriving group of church builders, they raised up at least 7 churches in Asian Minor and some of those ministries (Smyrna and Philadelphia) spanned nearly a thousand years.

I studied a little bit to Jason.

Saints or believers are never called sinners by God. In fact, Jesus says to the believer in Matthew 7 who did wonderful works to depart from Him because he worked iniquity (Matthew 7:23). Iniquity is sin.

Really? Jesus called Peter the devil, Paul called him a hypocrite and on the night Jesus was betrayed he denied him three times.

Jesus did not say, "Depart from me because I did not choose you to be saved."
Jesus did not say, "Depart from me because you did not have a belief alone on me."
In fact, Matthew 7:26-27 makes the point about how if we do not do what Jesus says, we are like fools who built our house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

Jesus didn't say based on your profession or belief, he suggested no such thing. You have some real issues following the context. I was hungry you did not feed me, I was thirsty you did not give me to drink...etc. Who were these people they mistreated without ever having met him? It's the body of believers and God takes that personally. I honestly think you should stop cross referencing immediately and go learn what this means, a text without a context is a pretext.

No. The Old Covenant is no longer a binding Covenant anymore. We are New Covenant believers. There are "Eternal Moral Laws" that God created for man since the beginning and that carried on through the writings of the Torah and then continued into the writings of the New Covenant or New Testament. But these are "Eternal Moral Laws" for us. The ceremonial laws and judicial laws of the Law of Moses or the Torah is what is no longer binding for believers today. Remember, Paul said in Romans 3:1, what profit is there in circumcision? Paul also said, if you seek to be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2). God's moral laws still apply today. For Jesus said if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). John says if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer and no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15).

The written code was set aside, even nailed to the cross because it made nothing perfect. That doesn't mean the Covenant was abolished because God never gave up on Israel and will never fail to keep his end of the Covenant. We were in grafted into the covenants and promises.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. (Romans 11:17-21)

Israel did not keep their part of the covenant and there were blessings for obedience and curses if they disobeyed. But God always has and always will keep his covenant with Israel. Certain branches might be cut off but the vine remains and we did not replace the vine, we were grafted into it as unnatural branches. The failed through unbelief. The New Testament did not set aside the Old Testament, it fulfilled the promise of the Law. It's no coincidence Jesus had the Lord's Supper on Passover. This time it wasn't the throwing off of earthly slavery but the final destruction of sin's tyranny. Indeed we can walk in peace and freedom, being slave to righteousness but make no mistake, we still have unredeemed flesh.

Paul argued against the false Pharisee religion that was all works to be saved and no grace or a Savior.
Paul pushed Jesus for salvation; From there, good works will then flow through their life because it is Jesus doing the good works through them.

The Pharisees stood up at the Council of Jerusalem and said the Gentiles must be circumcised in order to be saved. Then Peter stands up and says that is a yoke neither we nor our fathers could bear. The Gentiles are purifying themselves by faith. Justification by grace through faith is not a Pauline doctrine, it is, but it's actually the Apostles doctrine. James decided along with the elders and all the people decided to send a letter to the Gentile believers in Galatia. Paul not only delivered it, he wrote it:

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. (Gal. 5: 5:12-15)

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

Oh but you were doing so good and then this:

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

Paul is talking about Paul in Romans 7

What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law…We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. (Romans 7:7&14)

That's not those guys back then, Paul is saying me right here and right now. Paul goes on for several chapters describing the sinful condition, culminating with his famous, 'but now', because now the righteousness of God in Christ has been revealed. He discusses the faith of Abraham and David and how they are saved by grace. Then for a whole chapter he compares Adam and Christ, then he starts the doctrinal section with, 'What shall we say then', which a literary expression indicating what we should teach. Romans 6 describes being a slave to sin or being a slave to righteousness. Paul drives it home with a personal testimony confessing that when the Law said 'thou shall not covet', sin brought out all manner of covetousness.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

He says Oh wretched man that I am, not that I was. Paul knew that sin was still there and never describes that sin in the past tense. Sin isn't just something you do, it is, but it's something you lack. What that is, is the righteousness of God in Christ most of which we do not receive until the resurrection.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

In Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin, and yet in Romans 8:2 he says he is set free from sin.
So unless Paul has a split personality disorder, he is intentionally speaking from two different perspectives.

No, Paul is always emphasizing that natural man is at variance with the new nature.

In fact, Romans 8 says this,

3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

That's because we are born again.

What righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us?
Is this by believing or doing nothing?
No, it is by walking after the Spirit.
Paul is referring to the "Eternal Moral Law" when he says "righteousness of the Law."
In Romans 13:8-10 we see Paul says we fulfill the Law (like do not covet, do not murder, etc.) by loving our neighbor.

There you go, much better.

That is not what Deuteronomy 30:10 says.
Also, a person cannot do their own righteousness.
It is the Lord who works through them and they can only have the Lord (Jesus) if they ask Him into their heart, and they ask to be forgiven, and they believe that He died and was risen again on their behalf.

Oh for crying out loud, this is what it says:

if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul. (Deut. 30:10)

That has not changed, you hear the voice of God and turn to him with your whole heart.

In the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee, this was not a justification of forever living in a sinful lifestyle so we can just mindlessly pay lip service to God the rest of our lives. For if one is not actually reforming to change and put any evil out of their lives at some point, then they are not really sorry. For example: If a man cheats on his wife and says he is sorry to her; Do you think things will work out if he has no real intention of stopping and he just keeps saying he is sorry? No.

You missed the whole point, he prayed God have mercy on me a sinner. The Pharisee pray I thank you that I'm not a sinner. The one who prayed God have mercy on me a sinner went away justified, another form of the word for righteousness.

The problem in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee is that the Pharisee did not repent of his sins first. That is why he was not humble. He did not first get his heart right with God. For if he did, he would have tried to help the Tax Collector to overcome his sins by praying for him, and helping him to employ God's good ways in reforming his life.

Just like the Law, turn to God with all your heart and he can have mercy. Go to God with a boast and he will send you away with nothing. You don't have to go looking for it, this isn't some quest. It's in your heart and in you mouth, it's in God's word and your profession. That profession begins with admitting you are in fact a sinner, the gospel does you no good if you don't.

We do not teach the same thing. You want the results of Sanctification but you fight against it by saying that you can sin and still be saved on some level. But it doesn't work like that. All believers have a choice. A believer can choose right now to stop sinning and ask Jesus to help them and believe His Word or they can just believe that type of doctrine that caters to their sin and wrong doing. A believer can stop sinning right now. It's possible with God and His Word.

You right about one thing, we certainly don't teach the same thing. I've never advocating Christians going around sinning because they can, I teach nothing of the sort. None of your remarks even bother to address what my post was saying, let alone contradicts it. Some interesting expositions but you are severely challenged with regards to context. You argue against me, you argue against Catholicism you argue against 'entire sanctification' without really arguing for anything much.

I was just wanting to encourage your studies and throw a few insights in to help you along the way. I can see my efforts were unappreciated, I won't make the same mistake twice.

Have a nice day
Mark

ToBeLoved · Jul 27, 2017

Jason0047 said:
As for a certain poster's claim about how no Christian Scientists existed in the early days of the New Testament: Well, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for not keeping God's laws. The Pharisees believed that they were right with God because of their lineage to Abraham. Sort of like a sin and still be gospel that is being pushed today in the churches. Also, John was warning the brethren against the gnostic beliefs in his 1st epistle for the fact that they said that they knew God and yet they did not keep His commandments (See 1 John 2:4).

"There is nothing new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

...

So did Christian Scientists exist at the time of the apostles like you said?

Why are you upset because I asked you about what you wrote. smh

Peter J Barban · Jul 27, 2017

I think that OP has an irrational mania over this topic. I remain open to practical evidence. Show us those who live in sinless perfection.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2017

Peter J Barban said:
I think that OP has an irrational mania over this topic. I remain open to practical evidence. Show us those who live in sinless perfection.

Again, if one lived during the time of Noah, how would they know to believe His message that a flood was coming? It never flooded in a horrible way according to Scripture before. Also, Noah was a preacher of righteousness. So if Noah was preaching righteousness to them, they would probably think he was crazy because the entire world was not living righteously. God destroyed that world because of it's wickedness. The global flood was an example to all who would live ungodly thereafter (As the Scriptures say).

Read again 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2017

mark kennedy said:
All Christians believe that are they are not Christians

You mean, all Christians believe they are Christians, right?
You said, "not Christians."
I do not know of any Christians who believe they are not Christians.
That is an illogical statement.

You said:
and by the way, I had a formal debate against a Catholic seminary student so I'm not stranger to the problems with RCC theology. Justification is by grace through faith and no Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant denies that. When they do they are denying the gospel.

Now, you are not making any sense. You said that Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants do not deny that we are saved by grace through faith and then you say that when they do, they deny the gospel. Are you saying that some among their ranks do and others don't?

The gospel is more than just believing in Jesus's death and resurrection for your salvation.
Believing in Jesus is just the milk of the Word.
The meat of the Word is obeying Jesus.

The purpose and reason Jesus died on the cross was so that He might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of the Word and that He might present to himself a church who is holy, without blemish.

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Jesus gave himself (sacrificed) for us so that he might redeem us from all iniquity and a people who are zealous of good works.

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).

Yes, and it is true. We are saved by grace through faith.
But faith without works is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17);
And a dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God.

You said:
All true except for one thing, your paragraph there says nothing about sanctification.

So you do not believe Jesus does not do the good work in the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

You said:
Not that your interested but the word for 'perfect' is teleo, it's the idea of the end to which something is directed toward.

You did not grow up speaking and writing Biblical Greek to really know what it says.
God preserved His Word in our world language today (i.e. English).
Perfect means perfect.
Besides, even if you did not believe the word "perfect" in your Bible, there are other synonyms for it.

Paul uses the words "sanctify you wholly" and "blameless" in reference to sanctification when he says,

“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Paul says that your whole body should be blameless.

Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

Here we see a comparison between being blameless and harmless the sons of God vs. a crooked and perverse nation of people. It is even said that these sons of God are to shines as lights in the world. Now, I do not know about you, but this does not sound like a sin and still be saved gospel.

You said:
The point of our salvation is that we will be presented to God the righteousness of God in Christ, holy and blameless. This is not going to happen in this life because until the resurrection we have unredeemed flesh.

I gave you two verses above that talk about being blameless in reference to living holy. So what you say is not true. Also, 1 Peter 4:1-2 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin and it says that he (you) should no longer live the rest of your time (here on this Earth) to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God.

You said:
What we do have is the new nature and if we avoid the hazards of a hard heart, fear of persecution, the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches we will bear fruit.

But you believe that a believer will not stop sinning, though.
What kind of sins are we talking about as being acceptable here.
Can they be the sins that you just mentioned above?

Jason0047 said:
Do you really believe in cleansing yourself from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit, PERFECTING HOLINESS in the FEAR of God?

You said:
Do you?

Yes, because it is what the verse says.

It says, "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

I asked my question by what the verse above here actually says;
And your reply to me suggests that your response would be a... "no."

You said:
I'm not Catholic, Arminian nor do I embrace the Wesleyan 'entire sanctification' doctrine as an article of faith. It's a propositional logic that emphasized the work of the Holy Spirit and bearing fruit to the glory of God. That's not sinless perfection, that's actually Christian maturity.

I see nothing about Christian maturity mentioned in 2 Corinthians 7:1. It says, I repeat, "let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit, PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God.

Okay, take each word one word at a time in this verse and break it down for me.
What is each word saying here?

You said:
I'm not changing anything and I noticed you completely ignored my exposition. I don't just quote verses at random and out of context, I certainly don't go around trampling Christian theology under my feet without bothering to learn the basic tenants.

If I have ignored something, then please bring that to my attention please. Also, in order for this statment to be true about what your interpretation on Scripture, you actually have to quote me the context.
But we also have to realize that the words in the verse itself also have to be true, too.
A verse cannot be so radically changed and different in what it says in a normal straight forward and plain reading. Hence, why I am asking you to give me a word by word commentary on 2 Corinthians 7:1. Yes, I would like to see the context, too.

You said:
You can do both, holding the Scriptures up as a standard and still have a sensitivity to where people are coming from.

I am saying that sometimes it is good to get away from what men say and just get alone with God and His Word for a while so as not to be influenced by what other men say. Have you ever done this? Would you care to do so again? In other words, it is sort of like when you are trying to concentrate on something and there is music blasting in your ears really loud. Sometimes we need to just get alone with God and just listen to Him for a while. I am not saying for you to forever forget what other believers say. I am saying, take the time away and get alone with God and seek out what His Word really says and not what you prefer it to say based on what you have learned from others.

You said:
Justification by grace through faith and sanctification through the work of the Holy Spirit has always been primary theological issues. The New Testament has always embraced the New Testament witness as the Apostles doctrine. Your creating a false dilemma here, theology and Scripture are not mutually exclusive.

No. All theological issues comes from the study of God's Word. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

You said:
It is true, the Scriptures couldn't be more clear on this:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13,14)

What is the condition of having the seal of God?

Scripture says, God the Father has set his seal upon those who labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." (John 6:27).

In fact, what is a guarantee?

Guarantee receipts normally have conditions which you can normally read in the ”fine print”. If you get a guarantee receipt for a certain product and you would like to make a claim, the store might request that you bring both the product and the receipt with you before they are willing to look at your claim. They might also request that you do this within a certain time frame and that you state what’s wrong with the product. Another example could be if someone buys you a bus ticket which guarantees you to get to a certain city PROVIDED that 1) you don’t throw away your ticket, 2) that you embark the right bus on the right time, and 3) that you STAY ON the bus until it arrives at the city. The BUS will arrive at the city as promised, but the question is if YOU will choose to be among the bus passengers.

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Psalms 5:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me

Again, circumcision was a ”seal” for those under the old covenant.

Romans 4:11
And he received the sign of circumcision, a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

This seal WAS broken and guaranteed nothing when those who were circumcised broke the covenant and were cut off from the people of God.

Romans 2:25-27
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, IF thou keep the law: but IF thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

As you can see, this seal was conditioned on continued faith and obedience. The Holy Spirit marks us as God’s children of the new covenant but if we abandon the faith, and/or live in disobedience then the Spirit of God no longer remains in us and we are no longer sealed. Circumcised (sealed) jews were broken off through unbelief.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:15-16
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, IF so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And IF Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

God speaks of the Israelites who ”grieved” His Holy Spirit in their rebellion. These Jews were cut off from the promise of entering God’s rest and they became God’s enemies.

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: THEREFORE he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. —

Isaiah 63:14
As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.

In the NT the ”rest” is the eternal rest that all believers will attain. The book of Hebrews continually speak of the promise of eternal rest, in combination with WARNINGS to believers not to miss out on this promised rest through hardening their hearts in unbelief, just as the Israelites did who rebelled against God during the Exodus (Read Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 10).

You said:
The redemption of the purchase price is the resurrection.

The sun has one degree of splendor, the moon another, and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor. So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. (1 Cor. 15:41-43)

Where does it say that in that passage? I don't see that. You are adding to God's Word. Acts of the Apostles 20:28 says we are bought with the blood.

How do you apply the blood?

1 John 1:7 says,
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

So you have to walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you of all sin.

You said:
Our bodies are still corruptible right up until the resurrection. You should spend more time on the resurrection because this is not an elusive doctrine.

Verses please. 1 Peter 4:1-2 refutes this type of wrong thinking.

You said:
Ok Peter, how do we do that?

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

Part of it is revealed in the gospel, the moving of the Holy Spirit, being born again of incorruptible seed to the glory of the Father. The rest of it remains to be revealed at the end of the age when the Church is raised. That is revealed in 'the last time',

Being born again is talking about having a spiritual renewal of one's heart when they repent of their sins and accept Jesus as their Savior and they believe in His death and resurrection.

But you are still not addressing what 1 Peter 4:1-2 actually says. How do you cease from sin? You suffer in the flesh. For he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. That is what the verse says. Then it says that he should not live the rest of his time to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God. The rest of this time is here upon this Earth. Not sure why you cannot see what this verse says. It is clear in what it says.

I will try and address the rest of your post soon.

May God's love shine upon you;
And may you please be well.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

...

mark kennedy · Jul 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
You mean, all Christians believe they are Christians, right?
You said, "not Christians."
I do not know of any Christians who believe they are not Christians.
That is an illogical statement.

Now, you are not making any sense. You said that Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants do not deny that we are saved by grace through faith and then you say that when they do, they deny the gospel. Are you saying that some among their ranks do and others don't?

The gospel is more than just believing in Jesus's death and resurrection for your salvation.
Believing in Jesus is just the milk of the Word.
The meat of the Word is obeying Jesus.

The purpose and reason Jesus died on the cross was so that He might sanctify and cleanse it by the washing of the Word and that He might present to himself a church who is holy, without blemish.

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Jesus gave himself (sacrificed) for us so that he might redeem us from all iniquity and a people who are zealous of good works.

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).

Yes, and it is true. We are saved by grace through faith.
But faith without works is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17);
And a dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God.

So you do not believe Jesus does not do the good work in the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

You did not grow up speaking and writing Biblical Greek to really know what it says.
God preserved His Word in our world language today (i.e. English).
Perfect means perfect.
Besides, even if you did not believe the word "perfect" in your Bible, there are other synonyms for it.

Paul uses the words "wholly" and "blameless" in reference to sanctification when he says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Paul says that your whole body should be blameless.

Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

Here we see a comparison between being blameless and harmless the sons of God vs. a crooked and perverse nation of people. It is even said that these sons of God are to shines as lights in the world. Now, I do not know about you, but this does not sound like a sin and still be saved gospel.

I gave you two verses above that talk about being blameless in reference to living holy. So what you say is not true. Also, 1 Peter 4:1-2 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin and it says that he (you) should no longer live the rest of your time (here on this Earth) to the lusts of the flesh but to the will of God.

But you believe that a believer will not stop sinning, though.
What kind of sins are we talking about as being acceptable here.
Can they be the sins that you just mentioned above?

Yes, because it is what the verse says.

It says, "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

I asked my question by what the verse above here actually says;
And your reply to me suggests that your response would be a... "no."

I see nothing about Christian maturity mentioned in 2 Corinthians 7:1. It says, I repeat, "let us cleanse ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit, PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God.

Okay, take each word one word at a time in this verse and break it down for me.
What is each word saying here?

if I have ignored something, then please bring that to my attention please. Also, in order for this statment to be true about what your interpretation on Scripture, you actually have to quote me the context.
But we also have to realize that the words in the verse itself also have to be true, too.
A verse cannot be so radically changed and different in what it says in a normal straight forward and plain reading. Hence, why I am asking you to give me a word by word commentary on 2 Corinthians 7:1. Yes, I would like to see the context, too.

We are done Jason, I wish you all the best but I don't appreciate your attitude.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2017

mark kennedy said:
We are done Jason, I wish you all the best but I don't appreciate your attitude.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Well, I think you are over reacting.
It was not my intention to insult you in any way.
I was trying to clarify what you were talking about.
A person can read a tone of voice into a person's words that is not there.

In any event, if you do not want to discuss this any further, I completely understand.
But I will finish my reply to you.

May the Lord's goodness be upon you.

....

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2017

mark kennedy said:
We are done Jason, I wish you all the best but I don't appreciate your attitude.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I also would not take it as an offense if somebody had pointed out a mistake or a typo (if that is what it was). I would apologize for not making it clear. Instead, you act like it is my fault for your lack of not communicating to me properly. I say this not to wound you, dear sir; But I say this in truth and in love.

Anyways, I am wishing nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus.
May you have a blessed evening.

...

Peter J Barban · Jul 28, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Again, if one lived during the time of Noah, how would they know to believe His message that a flood was coming? It never flooded in a horrible way according to Scripture before. Also, Noah was a preacher of righteousness. So if Noah was preaching righteousness to them, they would probably think he was crazy because the entire world was not living righteously. God destroyed that world because of it's wickedness. The global flood was an example to all who would live ungodly thereafter (As the Scriptures say).

According to your analogy you are Noah, the last righteous man on earth and I am the wicked whom God will destroy.
Irrational mania confirmed!

Bible Highlighter · Jul 29, 2017

Peter J Barban said:
According to your analogy you are Noah, the last righteous man on earth and I am the wicked whom God will destroy.
Irrational mania confirmed!

Did I say that I was Noah?
Sigh. No. My point was that you cannot build a truth in Scripture by a lack of faith or by looking to the world instead of what God's Word says. The point is that there are many things in God's Word that we have to take by faith. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

...

Peter J Barban · Jul 29, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Did I say that I was Noah?
Sigh. No. My point was that you cannot build a truth in Scripture by a lack of faith or by looking to the world instead of what God's Word says. The point is that there are many things in God's Word that we have to take by faith. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him.

Don't weasel out of your analogy. You likened yourself to Noah and those who do not agree to wicked pagans. You did so twice. Either you believe this analogy is accurate or you intentionally used bad arguments. I am willing to accept your apology if you offer it.

I look for fruit: love, joy, peace, patience ... What is the fruit of your message? Do those who follow it become sinless and filled with the fruit of the Holy Spirit? If I can trust your fruit, then I can trust the message.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 29, 2017

Peter J Barban said:
Don't weasel out of your analogy. You likened yourself to Noah and those who do not agree to wicked pagans. You did so twice. Either you believe this analogy is accurate or you intentionally used bad arguments. I am willing to accept your apology if you offer it.

And I told you what the analogy actually is.
If you want to falsely assert it means something other than what I said, then this conversation not going to go anywhere fast. In fact, if you keep it up such tactics, I will just put you on ignore.

I have better things to do then for people to falsely accuse me of things.

You said:
I look for fruit: love, joy, peace, patience ... What is the fruit of your message? Do those who follow it become sinless and filled with the fruit of the Holy Spirit? If I can trust your fruit, then I can trust the message.

First, ask the Lord to show you if Sinless Perfection is true. When I say ask, do not hope that the doctrine is wrong or anything. Be sincere with God. Second, read and study the verses in the OP or the "Original Post." Do not read them with a biased point of view. Just read them and believe what they say. From this, the fruit of God's Word will work in your life all on it's own.

...

Bible Highlighter · Jul 29, 2017

Most today think they cannot stop sinning; Yet, they say they are not justifying sin.

1 Corinthians 10:13 says,

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

Here we see no mumbo jumbo about how we will always fall into temptation. The Lord will not tempt you above what you can handle and he will always provide a way of escape so that you can bear it.

...

Peter J Barban · Jul 29, 2017

Jason0047 said:
First, ask the Lord to show you if Sinless Perfection is true. When I say ask, do not hope that the doctrine is wrong or anything. Be sincere with God. Second, read and study the verses in the OP or the "Original Post." Do not read them with a biased point of view. Just read them and believe what they say. From this, the fruit of God's Word will work in your life all on it's own.

Jesus said that I should judge you by your fruit!
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Unfortunately, you show us no fruit.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 29, 2017

Peter J Barban said:
Jesus said that I should judge you by your fruit!
Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Unfortunately, you show us no fruit.

Where do you feel I have shown you bad fruit?
Where do you feel I have shown you no good fruit?
Do you know my life? Do you have a secret micro chip inserted in my brain recording my every thought and move?
Have you seen every post I have written here at CF?
Also, is not your position one of agreeing with bringing forth bad fruit (sin) as being normal in this life and that nobody can stop bringing forth bad fruit (sin) because everyone brings forth bad fruit (i.e. they cannot stop sinning)?

Please read all of Matthew 7. The point of that chapter is not a sin and still be saved gospel.
The point of that chapter is that a believer's obedience to Jesus is test that they are His.
Verses 26-27 says everyone who does not do what Jesus says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm had come, great was the fall of that house.

...

Peter J Barban · Jul 29, 2017

Well, since you asked:
The fruit that you have shown me is: manic, irrational, irresponsible, and paranoid. If you were a visitor in my church, I would keep an eye on you to make sure you didn't rush up and grab the microphone away from the preacher.

You do not show love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control at the level I would expect for one who proclaimed a message of sinless perfection

What does Scripture Mean About Perfection?

Well-Known Member

Natura non facit saltum

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Natura non facit saltum

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Natura non facit saltum

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

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