What does Rom 9:13 mean ?

[Dan Perez]

It reads , Even as it has been written , Jacob I have loved but Esau have I hated .

What does hate mean here , and did God Hate Esau ?

What say you ?

dan p

 

[messianist]

It means he has mercy on some and not others, he displays his attributes throughout.

 

[Clare73]

It reads , Even as it has been written , Jacob I have loved but Esau have I hated .

What does hate mean here , and did God Hate Esau ?

What say you ?

dan p

Jacob I favored, Esau I did not favor, based on nothing but my right and choice to do so.

 

[jamiec]

It reads , Even as it has been written , Jacob I have loved but Esau have I hated .

What does hate mean here , and did God Hate Esau ?

What say you ?

dan p

That God showed more favour to Israel (the people descended from Jacob), than to Edom (the people descended from Esau).

I think that "hate" and "love" are being used in an unqualified sense, *as though* God had unqualified loathing for Esau, not because God has any such attitude to Esau; but because the love of God for Israel, His chosen, covenanted people, is total, unqualified, and unreserved - just as the Israelite's love for God is called upon to be.

So, that, *by comparison* with God's covenant-love for Israel, God's love for other nations is as nothing. So, by a bold use of language, that love for Esau/Edom, the "brother" of Jacob not in a covenant-relation with God, is called hate.

God hates - in the familiar sense of the word - nothing that He has made. So the passage in St Paul, quoted from Malachi, is antecedently unlikely to mean that God hates Esau/Edom.

 

[Dan Perez]

That God showed more favour to Israel (the people descended from Jacob), than to Edom (the people descended from Esau).

I think that "hate" and "love" are being used in an unqualified sense, *as though* God had unqualified loathing for Esau, not because God has any such attitude to Esau; but because the love of God for Israel, His chosen, covenanted people, is total, unqualified, and unreserved - just as the Israelite's love for God is called upon to be.

So, that, *by comparison* with God's covenant-love for Israel, God's love for other nations is as nothing. So, by a bold use of language, that love for Esau/Edom, the "brother" of Jacob not in a covenant-relation with God, is called hate.

God hates - in the familiar sense of the word - nothing that He has made. So the passage in St Paul, quoted from Malachi, is antecedently unlikely to mean that God hates Esau/Edom.

the name of the man for his POSTER

But in Heb 11:20 it says that God , blessed both Jacob and Esau .

We see from Mal 1:1-4 that God was to detest Esaus children and this what is called METONYMY of the Adjunct which means The name of the man for his POSTERITY .

dan p

 

[Clare73]

the name of the man for his POSTERITY

But in Heb 11:20 it says that God , blessed both Jacob and Esau .

We see from Mal 1:1-4 that God was to detest Esaus children and this what is called METONYMY of the Adjunct which means The name of the man for his POSTERITY .

dan p

Any real difference?

 

[Paul4JC]

I loved Jacobs's faith. I hated Esau's rebelliousness.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Not sure if I could prove it, but in old Jewish culture love and hate were synomous with choice. When is says he loved Jacob, it means he chose him (for a special purpose), when it says God hated Esau, it means Esau was not chosen, but it doesn't imply fault with Esau, for Jacob was chosen before he was born.

There is an ancient secular Jewish text that goes something like this:
A man went shopping for new shows, he took home the ones he loved and he hated the rest.

All this means is that sometimes the word loved means chosen in the OT and sometimes hated means not chosen/rejected.

 

[Clare73]

I loved Jacobs's faith. I hated Esau's rebelliousness.

Not according to the text, which is exceedingly clear that it had nothing to do with either one personally.

And I loved Jacob's stealing the birthright?

 

[Paul4JC]

Not according to the text, which is exceedingly clear that it had nothing to do with either one personally.

And I loved Jacob's stealing the birthright?

You don't isolate Rom 9:13 from Gen 25, 26 and 27. That's not "rightly dividing the word of truth" 2Ti 2:15 Sure God had to teach Jacob some hard lessons, but Esau was unteachable and despised his birthright. He also married two Hittite women. God knows what other evils he did.

[Heb 11:8-9 NIV] 8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

[Heb 12:16 NIV] 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

 

[Clare73]

You don't isolate Rom 9:14 from Gen 25, 26 and 27.

Actually, I don't set Romans 9:14 against Genesis 25, 26, 27.

 

[Paul4JC]

[Pro 8:13 NIV] To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

[Zec 8:17 NIV] do not plot evil against each other, and do not love to swear falsely. I hate all this," declares the LORD.

[Rom 12:9 NIV] Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That God showed more favour to Israel (the people descended from Jacob), than to Edom (the people descended from Esau).

I think that "hate" and "love" are being used in an unqualified sense, *as though* God had unqualified loathing for Esau, not because God has any such attitude to Esau; but because the love of God for Israel, His chosen, covenanted people, is total, unqualified, and unreserved - just as the Israelite's love for God is called upon to be.

So, that, *by comparison* with God's covenant-love for Israel, God's love for other nations is as nothing. So, by a bold use of language, that love for Esau/Edom, the "brother" of Jacob not in a covenant-relation with God, is called hate.

God hates - in the familiar sense of the word - nothing that He has made. So the passage in St Paul, quoted from Malachi, is antecedently unlikely to mean that God hates Esau/Edom.

Your first sentence gives the vital clue. It actually wasn't because God hated Esau personally. It actually wasn't about Esau and Jacob as persons. The Hebrew way of describing nations of people is by the name of the persons who founded them. Jacob's name was changed to Israel, and so the nation of Israel was named after him.

And it wasn't because Jacob was more godly than Esau. We don't know whether Esau was any less godly than Jacob. In actual fact, Jacob got the blessing that Esau should have received, by trickery. So Esau would have been justified at being angry at Jacob.

The fact is that God, according to His plans and purposes, formed a line of succession according to His own righteous choice in order to form the foundation for His chosen nation, the nation of Israel.

So the Scripture is talking about the nation founded on Jacob as being favoured as the vehicle for the Law, the Temple, and ultimately for Christ, and the nation founded by Esau was passed over. God had no personal hatred for Esau, He just passed him over in favour of Jacob so that it was Jacob's children who became the patriarchs on whom the 12 tribes of Israel were formed.

 

[Guojing]

Your first sentence gives the vital clue. It actually wasn't because God hated Esau personally. It actually wasn't about Esau and Jacob as persons. The Hebrew way of describing nations of people is by the name of the persons who founded them. Jacob's name was changed to Israel, and so the nation of Israel was named after him.

And it wasn't because Jacob was more godly than Esau. We don't know whether Esau was any less godly than Jacob. In actual fact, Jacob got the blessing that Esau should have received, by trickery. So Esau would have been justified at being angry at Jacob.

The fact is that God, according to His plans and purposes, formed a line of succession according to His own righteous choice in order to form the foundation for His chosen nation, the nation of Israel.

So the Scripture is talking about the nation founded on Jacob as being favoured as the vehicle for the Law, the Temple, and ultimately for Christ, and the nation founded by Esau was passed over. God had no personal hatred for Esau, He just passed him over in favour of Jacob so that it was Jacob's children who became the patriarchs on whom the 12 tribes of Israel were formed.

There is enough precedence for the 2nd to be the chosen one, instead of the first

Abel instead of Seth
Issac instead of Ishmael
Etc

Christ was also the second Adam, when Paul describe how we are righteous, in the famous Romans 5:12-19

 

[readywriter]

'As it is written,
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then?
Is there unrighteousness with God?
God forbid.
For He saith to Moses,
I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, (Exodus 33:19 & Exodus 34:6-7)
and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.'
(Rom 9:13-16)

I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on Romans 9:13, but it is the immediate context which gives the most reliable understanding of what is meant by the words, 'Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated'.

One of these young men Jacob and Esau, born to Isaac, would carry the precious seed as stated by God to Abraham in (Genesis 21:12; Romans 9:7; Hebrews 11:18), which would lead to Christ, as promised in Genesis 3:15. God's choice was born of foreknowledge.

I believe that the words, 'loved' and 'hated' should be left as they are, and not explained away. God knew what He was doing: and why those strong emotions should be ascribed to Him in regard to these two men. He has said it, I believe it.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

'For it is God which worketh in you
both to will and to do of His good pleasure.'
(Php 2:13)

 

[Clare73]

"As is written,
Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For He saith to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Rom 9:13-16)

I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on Romans 9:13, but it is the immediate context which gives the most reliable understanding of what is meant by the words, 'Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated'. (Malachi 1:1-2)
One of these young men Jacob and Esau, born to Isaac, would carry the precious seed as stated by God to Abraham in (Genesis 21:12; Romans 9:7; Hebrews 11:18), which would lead to Christ, as promised in Genesis 3:15. God's choice was born of foreknowledge.

I believe that the words, 'loved' and 'hated' should be left as they are, and not explained away. God knew what He was doing: and why those strong emotions should be ascribed to Him in regard to these two men. He has said it, I believe it.

Praise His Holy Name!
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."

Unless in the 5th century B.C. (Malachi 1:1-2) and 450 years later (Luke 14:26), as indicated in Jesus' words, "hate" had a different connotation than it does now, another 2,000 years later.

 

[readywriter]

Luke 14:26 - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes even his own life--he cannot be my disciple."

Perhaps in the 5th century B.C. (Malachi 1:1-2) and 450 years later (Luke 14:26), as indicated in Jesus' words, "hate" had a different connotation than it does now, another 2,000 years later.

'The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
"I have loved you," saith the LORD.
Yet ye say, 'Wherein hast Thou loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" saith the LORD: "yet I loved Jacob,"
(Mal 1:1-2)

'If any man come to me,
and hate not his father, and mother,
and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters,
yea, and his own life also,
he cannot be My disciple.'
(Luke 14:26)

Hello @Clare73,

Maybe in regard to our perception of these words: but the Word of God does not change: it remains the same, doesn't it? As God Himself is unchanging, so is His Word. It is our perception that changes. (eg., Deuteronomy 21:15-17 - thinking of Leah and Rachel)

I believe that it is the strength of feeling intended by such words as these that is meant to be conveyed, regardless of the object of it. So that, in comparison to the disciples love of Him, and of His Word in the Spirit; the love felt for any relation in the flesh, even the disciples own self, would be akin to hatred.

Thank you so much for responding to my post.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Clare73]

'The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
"I have loved you," saith the LORD.
Yet ye say, 'Wherein hast Thou loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" saith the LORD: "yet I loved Jacob,"
(Mal 1:1-2)

'If any man come to me,
and hate not his father, and mother,
and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters,
yea, and his own life also,
he cannot be My disciple.'
(Luke 14:26)

Hello @Clare73,

Maybe in regard to our perception of it: but
the Word of God does not change: it remains the same, doesn't it?

The meaning of the Word of God does not change.
But if "gay" is used anywhere in the word of God, it does not mean "homosexual" as it is used to mean today. God's meaning does not change, but the meaning of words can change.

The meaning of the word as you understand it is what gives it its "strength of feeling," but if its connotation almost 3,000 years ago was "Jacob I favored, but Esau I favored less than Jacob," is it the same "strength of feeling" to you?

The "strength of feeling" depends on what one thinks the words mean, not on just the words themselves.

And "favor less" certainly fits in Luke 14:26.

 

[readywriter]

The meaning of the Word of God does not change.
But if "gay" is used anywhere in the word of God, it does not mean "homosexual" as it is used to mean today. God's meaning does not change, but the meaning of words can change.

The meaning of the word as you understand it is what gives it its "strength of feeling," but if its connotation almost 3,000 years ago was "Jacob I favored, but Esau I favored less than Jacob," is it the same "strength of feeling" to you?

The "strength of feeling" depends on what one thinks the words mean, not on just the words themselves.

And "favor less" certainly fits in Luke 14:26.

Hello again, @Clare73,

I understand. The only way we can know what the original meaning was, is by comparing Scripture by Scripture, to see how the Holy Spirit used the words in question. Love and Hate.

I don't believe modification is something we should entertain where the Word of God is concerned, without absolute proof of it's original intention.

'As it is written,
Jacob have I loved,
but Esau have I hated.
(Rom 9:13)

G3404 = miseo
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
* (eg., Romans 9:13 & Luke 14:26)

'"I have loved you," saith the LORD.
"Yet ye say, 'Wherein hast Thou loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" saith the LORD:
"yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau,
and laid his mountains and his heritage waste
for the dragons of the wilderness."'
(Mal 1:2-3)

H8130 = śânê' (saw-nay)
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

Studying how these two words, one Greek, the other Hebrew, are used in Scripture would be profitable to come to a complete understanding, which I do not have time to do at this moment. But I thank you for promoting the action to check them out, for each description, though open to question, and the need of confirmation by the comparison of Scripture usage, give food for thought.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Clare73]

Hello again, @Clare73,

I understand. The only way we can know what the original meaning was, is by comparing Scripture by Scripture, to see how the Holy Spirit used the words in question. Love and Hate.

I don't believe modification is something we should entertain where the Word of God is concerned, without absolute proof of it's original intention.

'As it is written,
Jacob have I loved,
but Esau have I hated.
(Rom 9:13)

G3404 = miseo
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).
* (eg., Romans 9:13 & Luke 14:26)

There we go! That is what I am talking about. . .at least we have something that fits Luke 14:26.

Thanks.

"I have loved you," saith the LORD.
"Yet ye say, 'Wherein hast Thou loved us?'
Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" saith the LORD:
"yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau,
and laid his mountains and his heritage waste
for the dragons of the wilderness."'
(Mal 1:2-3)

H8130 = śânê' (saw-nay)
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

Studying how these two words, one Greek, the other Hebrew, are used in Scripture would be profitable to come to a complete understanding, which I do not have time to do at this moment. But I thank you for promoting the action to check them out, for each description, though open to question, and the need of confirmation by the comparison of Scripture usage, give food for thought.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris