What does "quiverfull" mean to you?

ACADEMIC · Oct 13, 2006

Katydid, If a child is utterly integral to God's purposes on the earth, then the child will be born and will be indestructable until his or her assignment on earth is finished. Ask Sarah (who in barreness had Isaac, who died in old age), Elizabeth (who in barreness had John the Baptist, who was beheaded before mid-life), and Mary (who as a virgin had Christ, saved by a vision as an infant, crucified at age 33), for example.

Katydid · Oct 13, 2006

Yes, but those children were also born to women who were WILLING participants. They prayed for children. They did not actively avoid children.

Katydid · Oct 13, 2006

Ok, so I guess you could say that Mary wasn't "willing" in a sense, but her heart was open to God. She wasn't married yet, and that was a necessity. So, out of all the children, that I remember biblically, I don't think any of them were UNWILLING.

ACADEMIC · Oct 13, 2006

Do you really think that any human can stand in the way of God if He really wants to do something?

Whatever the LORD pleases, He does,
In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.
Psa 135:6

And check out Romans 9.

______________________________

Katydid · Oct 13, 2006

You know, what I am saying is this. God may very well step in and do as He pleases. I am not one to say he can't. BUT, I will say that considering "children are a blessing from the Lord", if He is choosing to BLESS us through the birth of a child, yet we make it clear we don't want one, then NO I don't think he will. I think he will decide that we don't want His blessing.

Yes, I am sure that when he wants someone to give birth to the next John, Paul, or Moses, then that person WILL give birth. BUT, that is not to say that every blessing He wants to bestow on us will be given even if we say NO. By using BC you are saying that you DON'T WANT that blessing.

ACADEMIC · Oct 13, 2006

Katydid said:
You know, what I am saying is this. God may very well step in and do as He pleases. I am not one to say he can't. BUT, I will say that considering "children are a blessing from the Lord", if He is choosing to BLESS us through the birth of a child, yet we make it clear we don't want one, then NO I don't think he will. I think he will decide that we don't want His blessing.

Yes, I am sure that when he wants someone to give birth to the next John, Paul, or Moses, then that person WILL give birth. BUT, that is not to say that every blessing He wants to bestow on us will be given even if we say NO. By using BC you are saying that you DON'T WANT that blessing.

And God's will is not, and cannot be, thwarted by that decision to use birth control. To say that birth control prevents children that God otherwise planned from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 2:10) is pure theological hooey, because man cannot prevent God from doing anything. He is God, not man or any other created thing.

[ACADEMIC now envisions a human standing up to God and saying, "I am going to prevent You, stop You, stand in Your way!" And "He who sits in the heavens laughs ... scoffs" (Psa 2:4).]

Okay, nuff said.

Katydid · Oct 13, 2006

To say that birth control prevents children that God otherwise planned from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 2:10) is pure theological hooey, because man cannot prevent God from doing anything. He is God, not man or any other created thing.

Well, now, here is a big difference in our views. I don't believe that God planned for EVERY individual here. I think he has a PLAN for the world, but I don't believe that he predestined Suzy to have 4 kids and Amy to have 1.

ACADEMIC · Oct 13, 2006

I think He foreknew but did not neccessarily plan all. That is sometimes a kinda hard but important difference to grasp. For example, I was conceived out of wedlock. God did not plan that but He foreknew it, and me, from the foundation of the world.

Tozer's Knowledge of the Holy is some meaty reading on these sorts of subjects, if anyone is interested.

oliveplants · Oct 13, 2006

Academic, I'm trying to reconcile your statements that

What I reject are the QF ideas of Providential Conception, immediate divine creation,

and

And God's will is not, and cannot be, thwarted by that decision to use birth control. To say that birth control prevents children that God otherwise planned from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 2:10) is pure theological hooey, because man cannot prevent God from doing anything. He is God, not man or any other created thing.

Do you mean that in general it is up to the individual, but in certian specific instances God will have direct and total control/say in the matter? Or is it something else?

I don't mean to be ugly, just trying to figure out exactly what you mean.

Katydid · Oct 13, 2006

That is what I am confused about as well.

ACADEMIC · Oct 13, 2006

oliveplants said:
Academic, I'm trying to reconcile your statements that

What I reject are the QF ideas of Providential Conception, immediate divine creation...

and

God's will is not, and cannot be, thwarted by that decision to use birth control. To say that birth control prevents children that God otherwise planned from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 2:10) is pure theological hooey, because man cannot prevent God from doing anything. He is God, not man or any other created thing.

Do you mean that in general it is up to the individual, but in certian specific instances God will have direct and total control/say in the matter? Or is it something else?

I don't mean to be ugly, just trying to figure out exactly what you mean.

Great question!

I started to write a detailed explanation, but yes, I think you do have my basic meaning.

But does just that brief reply raise some more questions for you?

oliveplants · Oct 14, 2006

Well, if I have your basic idea, then that's good enough. I know sometimes I have ideas that seem contradictory until further explored, and figured the same must be true for a lot of people.

ACADEMIC · Oct 14, 2006

I sure can understand. If ever a theological subject seemed to contradict, ideas of God's absolute sovereignty and the free-will of man probably wins out over all else.

faithgoeson · Oct 21, 2006

shallowtentpegs said:
I really am quite calm, just passionate about God's Word.
I answered 2,3,4. and yourself?
Perhaps this is not the forum for me. I assumed lively discussions might be encouraged, after all, thats how iron sharpens iron.
Please forgive me if I offended you. I was not speaking to you personally but to Christians as a whole. Does everyone out there think we are doing a great job in affecting our culture for the glory of Christ Jesus?
(I first posted this with the wrong message, still trying to find my way around)

I thought I'd read this forum and see all these wonderful stories about Christian moms raising children and enjoying God's blessings. All I'm seeing is debate. I thought it was a forum for quiver full moms. Am I wrong?

jgonz · Oct 21, 2006

I thought it was a forum for quiver full moms. Am I wrong?

This IS a forum for QF moms. Unfortunately someone came in here and started discussing/debating the rationale Behind being QF... And that is Not what this forum is supposed to be.

Sabertooth · Nov 16, 2006

On your poll, where it says "wrong/sinful," I think you should reconsider that position. Instead of thinking of these choices as "right" and "wrong," they should be thought of in terms of "correct" and "incorrect." My view of the kosher laws, as they apply to us Gentiles, is similar.

God does not promise to judge us for being incorrect in these matters, but nearness or farness to His ideals affects our quality of life, responsiveness to His Spirit and, from there, impact of our ministry. Romans 12:1, 2 says,

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will."

On the choice, "I personally [did] all I [could] to have as many children as possible," that should be in the context of a pleasure-driven sex life, not conception-driven. With that drive, alone, He had plenty of opportunities to max out our quiver. Hope that wasn't TMI.

oliveplants · Nov 16, 2006

Sabertooth said:
On your poll, where it says "wrong/sinful," I think you should reconsider that position. Instead of thinking of these choices as "right" and "wrong," they should be thought of in terms of "correct" and "incorrect." My view of the kosher laws, as they apply to us Gentiles, is similar. God does not promise to judge us for being incorrect in these matters, but nearness or farness to His ideals affects our quality of life, responsiveness to His Spirit and, from there, impact of our ministry.

On the choice, "I personally [did] all I [could] to have as many children as possible," that should be in the context of a pleasure-driven sex life, not conception-driven. With that drive, alone, He had plenty of opportunities to max out our quiver. Hope that wasn't TMI.

Thanks for joining in my poll!
Perhaps the "wrong" wording is a southern thing? As in, "The way hormonal BC messes up women's moods is just wrong!" So some would say it is sinful, and some say it just isn't quite right.
Anyway, I don't think polls can be edited. Feel free to make a new one if you like.

Are you done having children, then?
May I ask how far apart they are? (Or perhaps you are posting that on one of the other threads already...)

Sabertooth · Nov 16, 2006

oliveplants said:
Thanks for joining in my poll!
Perhaps the "wrong" wording is a southern thing? As in, "The way hormonal BC messes up women's moods is just wrong!" So some would say it is sinful, and some say it just isn't quite right.
Anyway, I don't think polls can be edited. Feel free to make a new one if you like.

Are you done having children, then?
May I ask how far apart they are? (Or perhaps you are posting that on one of the other threads already...)

I'm originally from southern California and "wrong" can go either way. I just don't believe others become accountable to these truths, until God specifically awakens them to it. And, then, it isn't out of fear of punishment, but wanting to be in sync with what He is doing. Such a commitment cannot be expected of the unawakened.

Our closest two [the first two] are a year and nine days apart; farthest, two years, seven months and 30 days. Their average gap was one year, eight months and 26 days. DW had a hysterectomy after the last one, due to complications.

"...Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness." Romans 6:19

ACADEMIC · Nov 16, 2006

Sabertooth said:
I just don't believe others become accountable to these truths, until God specifically awakens them to it.

Is either group more or less spiritual than the other?

Sabertooth · Nov 17, 2006

ACADEMIC said:
Is either group more or less spiritual than the other?

I am not sure what constitutes being "more spiritual."

I know both groups are equally "saved," if they are saved at all.

This seems to be just another degree of yieldedness. I believe that as the sum total of our yieldedness increases, so does our spiritual maturity as we are moving toward 1 John 3:2,

"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is."

So, it is conceivable that someone who has surrendered more in other areas and not even considered this issue would be more spiritually mature than someone who includes this surrender in a smaller total of surrenders.

The point is that God, alone, decides the order of surrenders He asks of each of His children and it is not necessarily the same sequence for everyone. Romans 14:10 says,

"You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

"No, Lord," is an oxymoron. If God brings us to ANY question in our life --not just QF-- and we refuse to surrender it, our spiritual maturity will come to a standstill. The worst case scenario is played out in Matthew 7:21-27,

"Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

If God is not now calling you, personally, to include your "loins" in your living sacrifice, you will be constantly frustrated in the QF responses and they will fall flat. We don't need to be rescued from it and God is the only one who can reveal this surrender to you.

Also, this position and forum assumes the standpoint of vitalism. It is patronizing to demand that our responses satisfy the concerns of mechanism.

What does "quiverfull" mean to you?

What does quiverfull mean to you?

Everybody should do all they can (morally and legally) to have as many children as possible

Every Christian on the planet should do all they can to have as many children as possible

I personally should do (am doing) all I can to have as many children as possible

All birth control is wrong/sinful

All artificial birth control is wrong/sinful

All hormonal birth control is wrong/sinful

Everybody should want to have many children, but there are exceptions for health, finances, etc

Christians should want to have many children, but there are exceptions due to health, finances, etc

I want to have as many children as my health, finances, and particular circumstances permit

I have a big family

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