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Well, whether it's a conspiracy or not between them, I'd love to see what they're saying to each other behind the scenes. But regardless, what would really get my goat (excuse the pun) is if they turned out to be closet atheistic Satanists who have a V...endetta against Christians and Christianity.
But, who know for sure?
Have a cup of tea, you’ll feel better
Have a cup of tea, you’ll feel better
Y'know, I'm starting to think that I should have some kind of personal metric by which to evaluate the amount of interlocutionary investment I should make with any one other individuals, especially if and when they happen to an atheistic, antagonistic polemicist.
What'ya think, Tom? Should I? Would it be 'Christian' of me to implement some kind of "3 strikes and you're OUT!" type of evaluative measure? Or should I, as a Christians, even an existential one at that, just let everyone be who and what they 'are' and say whatever they think they want to say when we wrangle with this thing called Christian Faith?
I dunno, I don’t often get phased by things. Probably people get annoyed with me rather than the other way around.
I think you have to limit how many threads you post on though, the general ‘you’ I mean, once you get into a discussion it can take up a lot of time.
Well, clearly you feel that those questions must be answered, I don’t. What could possibly be a definitive answer to that, short of God coming down for a cup of tea and a chat?
Not so fast. I already know God won't answer these question(s)Hence, I'm asking [you]. You are under the impression that, at least some of the time, God answers (some) intercessory prayer, via post #275.
Moving forward, we, meaning you and I, can then ask ourselves, or ask each other...
If God answers (some) prayer, this would mean that, once in a while, God would grant some of the requests applicable to the countless prayers to God for their child with Down's syndrome to be cured, or an amputee's limb to be restored. But He never does??.?.?
So, we, you and I, can ask ourselves... What's more likely...
Can we objectively distinguish 'answered prayer' apart from 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?
Or maybe, God never answers the call to request for Down's syndrome and amputees, but does for the ones you can equally attribute to 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?
Objectively? Can you define what you would see as an objective standard? That could be worth discussing I think.
Nice try in deflection, but this is not what I meanYou understand the difference between subjective and objective, right?
Example:
Subjective: someone tells you they feel warm.
Objective: their temperature is 101.5 degrees
Now, let's stop with the shenanigans, and get on with it already...
Again, you seem to assert that, sometimes, God answers some petitionary prayer. So, does He:
A: Sometimes answers prayer, as long as it's not ever the request for Down's syndrome or amputees?
B: Does not answer any prayers at all, and humans instead tie their own connections to things which go their direction; which could very well be related exclusively to 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?
Again, it goes back to the OP. If God stopped answering all prayer, or never did answer prayer to begin with, would we ever know the difference?
Not so fast, Tom. You're running far ahead of what is warranted. Let's go back to your example of your niece. Just because you can decide not to give her a dangerous, "bad" thing if she asked for it, that doesn't mean we're finished.You’re providing the answer yourself:
‘Anything’ doesn’t mean literally anything.
What then does it mean?
There is a basic division you can begin with: good things, and bad things.
Now you're adding another qualifier. And, basically, you're making it up. Jesus promised quite clearly: ask, and it will be given to you. Just because you and I have agreed, for now, that He must have meant "ask, and it will be given to you, unless it's something stupidly dangerous" that doesn't mean you have a license to interpret Jesus as saying "Ask for something, and I will decide what the best thing to give you is."Using those definitions, you can arrive at an understanding of what Jesus means by ‘good’, very generally this would mean things that are beneficial for the community of god. Comparing this idea also with how Jesus spoke about and demonstrated in actions his ideas regarding things like bodily comfort, wealth, things of that sort, those are generally not the kind of things that would necessarily be included, as a kind of heuristic.
Cvanswey has dealt with this already.Regarding ‘proof’ of answered prayers, it would be useful to define what higher authority or overarching notion of objective proof or über-standard you are referring to.
Hello, cvanwey! Your help is most welcome.If I may respond here?
God promised that if we ask, it shall be given to use. But clearly, this is not so.A better question might be, if we truly think God answers petitionary prayer (ever), then we must ask ourselves, as @BigV mentioned many posts back...
1. Why has God never answered the call to prayer, in request for restoration in an amputee's limb(s)?
2. Why has God never accommodated the parent's request to have their child no longer have Down's syndrome? Just two examples, off the top of my head...
Because, as cvanwey pointed out, God is not going to answer those questions Himself. Fortunately, He has you, and this is Christian Forums Apologetics section, a debating forum which exists for the purposes of Christians defending their faith with rational answers.Well, clearly you feel that those questions must be answered, I don’t. What could possibly be a definitive answer to that, short of God coming down for a cup of tea and a chat?
Exactly. If God does answer prayers then, quite simply, it should be observable that Christians are "luckier". This should be a measurable phenomenon. Is it?Can we objectively distinguish 'answered prayer' apart from 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?
Or maybe, God never answers the call to request for Down's syndrome and amputees, but does for the ones you can equally attribute to 'luck', 'chance', 'hard work paying off', other, etc..?
Objectively? Can you define what you would see as an objective standard? That could be worth discussing I think.
Good point. Tom, please stop ducking the question.Nice try in deflection, but this is not what I meanYou understand the difference between subjective and objective, right?
Thank you, Philo, for joining the conversation for the purposes of telling us you won't be joining the conversation.No, He didn't. I've been round and round and round with cvanwey and bigv on this issue over the last several months, and I'm not going over it again. It's not my fault if you, and an assortment of other people of whatever backgrounds, can't read the Bible without automatically resorting to hyper-literal and prima facie interpretations, completely devoid and disconnected from the overall Jewish idioms and cultural insinuations that color and temper the context(s).
Over and out!
I think you should concentrate on using reasoned arguments.Y'know, I'm starting to think that I should have some kind of personal metric by which to evaluate the amount of interlocutionary investment I should make with any one other individuals, especially if and when they happen to an atheistic, antagonistic polemicist.
What'ya think, Tom? Should I? Would it be 'Christian' of me to implement some kind of "3 strikes and you're OUT!" type of evaluative measure? Or should I, as a Christians, even an existential one at that, just let everyone be who and what they 'are' and say whatever they think they want to say when we wrangle with this thing called Christian Faith?
Perhaps you should try to do something about that.Probably people get annoyed with me rather than the other way around.
And, basically, you're making it up.
Good point. Tom, please stop ducking the question.
Easy. Just because you can quote the Bible, that doesn't mean the quotes support your argument.You'll have to explain that one to me; how is using the context of the bible, to explain something in the bible, making something up? Please use some examples to explain what you mean.
Again: what you think when you read something is not its objective meaning, this is not a complicated idea.
Tom: stop ducking the question.I'm not, you just don't like the answer. The answer is that your question doesn't relate to the topic you are attempting to address. Your question relates to some things you think about it, which is a separate thing. You are essentially asking yourself a question about something that you think, independent of the topic you have the impression it relates to. I doubt if you would treat a different topic like this, in a different context.
Easy. Just because you can quote the Bible, that doesn't mean the quotes support your argument.
If you think that "ask and it shall be given to you" means something other than its obvious meaning, then you'll need to explain why.
Perhaps you should try to do something about that.
Cvanwey, if you are just going to keep repeating the same thing, there isn’t a lot of point in continuing.
I realise that it may say something to you, to me it says nothing. This whole idea doesn’t match the topic you’re addressing with it, prayer isn’t a formula, and if it were you would first have to prove that no prayer of that sort has ever been answered.
Lol it usually happens when people insist on clinging to untenable positions.
No, He didn't.
. I've been round and round and round with cvanwey and bigv on this issue over the last several months, and I'm not going over it again.
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