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Reference, please?
I'll forgive you, of course, But then I'll also just assume your argument has no merit, since you're unwilling to make it. "I have a story which proves your point wrong" is no argument at all.Forgive me if, in my friendliest tone, I just say, "Look it up yourself!"
And then I'd say, "Y'know, we might as well talk about something other than Christian theology if we're ever going to find something in common ... !"
I'll forgive you, of course, But then I'll also just assume your argument has no merit, since you're unwilling to make it. "I have a story which proves your point wrong" is no argument at all.
Well, let's see.No, you really are incorrect there.
Okay. Perhaps someone one else would like to explain your reference. Until then, I'll just forget about it.But, everyone else will understand. And that's all that counts in the long run.
Well, let's see.
Okay. Perhaps someone one else would like to explain your reference. Until then, I'll just forget about it.
If you feel like making an argument, Philo, I shall be glad to address it.You usually do anyway, so why should I expect it to be any different this time? Unless, of course, you want to break the precedent that you've worked so very hard to capitalize on here during your tenure on CF.
Well, let's see.No, you really are incorrect there.
If you feel like making an argument, Philo, I shall be glad to address it.
Thank you. But Jesus does not say that God will not answer prayers; rather, as I've just posted, he encouraged it and promised they would be answered.The argument would be as follows: That despite my penchant for elaborate, O.T. stylepyrotechnics , Jesus slapped down any essential wish for His followers to call down "Fire From Heaven" upon the enemies of the Lord in the style of Elijah (see Luke 9:51-54; Mark 3:17). With this being the case, it would be inconsistent for Christians to think they should entangle themselves in some kind of theologized dual, prayer or no prayer.
But in fact, never does answer prayers.
The claim that God is real and that you are communicating with Him is a scientific one, because it produces effects in the real world.
No, actually it isn't besides the point.
You think that prayer is real, and you are communicating, in some fashion, with God. I think that it isn't, and you aren't.
The claim that God is real and that you are communicating with Him is a scientific one, because it produces effects in the real world. God Himself may or may not be subject to scientific investigation, but if He is producing effects in the material world - ie, communicating with you - then that is a matter which can, in principle, be investigated.
Would you agree with that?
Tom, that's what I always think.
I'm sorry, Tom, but it's you who is wrong here.
Discussion of the history, linguistics and sociology of the Bible in society may take advanced levels of study. But most apologetics isn't concerned with this. Rather, it's concerned with logical arguments put forward by Christians containing elementary flaws in reasoning that are relatively easy to point out. The truth of this is apparent in any debate between an atheist and a Christian, and can easily be seen on these forums.
There's lots of stories in the Bible which show you to be wrong in saying that God never answers prayers.
A Creationist argument if ever I saw one! Trying to pretend that all answers are equally valid
I'm sure you know the story. Elijah challenged the priests of a rival God to a praying competition; told the people to follow the winner; mocked the priests of Baal when their prayers were unanswered; and then prayed to Jehovah, who answered him.
The truth of this is apparent in any debate between an atheist and a Christian, and can easily be seen on these forums.
Why should they ask God for one thing, and He give them another?
I'll forgive you, of course, But then I'll also just assume your argument has no merit, since you're unwilling to make it. "I have a story which proves your point wrong" is no argument at all.
All you're demonstrating is that you have nothing to bring to the debate except "I'm right, and you'd see it if you bothered to look." As such, all you've got is an empty assertion that you're right because you say you are.Lol you have no idea if he does or not. If you want to know if unexpected or unusual things happen, as in your post, you would need to investigate those cases personally, like this person did, for example
Yes. I know. That's what I said. But that's what you're disagreeing with, with your "everyone has a viewpoint, and we can't tell them apart".Whether or not unusual things happen is something independent of what you think.
Well, feel free to prove me wrong if you can.Anyone can quote the bible selectively. Jesus, and the epistles, give a broader picture that fits in largely with the world as it is today - people experience different things, or the same things differently, according to their understanding and perception of the world.
Indeed it is. Fortunately I didn't say that. You seems to like putting words in people's mouths.Anyway to keep it short a starting point is accepting the kind of idea that ‘because I know x and y to be true everything must fit into how I see the world, or it isn’t real’ is just a bit daft.
Interesting. So you're saying that no way of looking at the world is valid?It is no more real in any objective sense than any other way of looking at the world.
Actually, it seems to be you who thinks he's the arbiter of what is true and what isn't.Aha so you are the arbiter of the real?
On a debating forum, you're expected to be able to back up your arguments.What you believe to be the ‘real world’ is a limited concept. You might get that in a limited kind of way, but to really understand it you need to invest the necessary time into completely absorbing a perspective different to your own.
Again, you say you could prove that I'm wrong, but don't take steps to show it.o, not at all. As above, to understand the passages you quote you also need to understand all the other passages that refer to how perception and experience are affected by what we think and believe. You have simplistic notions about this
Again, debating forum. "I'm right, and you'd see it if you tried being like me" isn't a valid argument. Here, you are expected to defend your views with logic and reason.Experiential learning is something deeply absorbed through the process of experience, if the idea isn’t clear. You can try it.
No, I don't expect others to fit into my way of thinking. Again, you're talking about yourself. What I expect is others to point out the flaws in my reasoning, if they are able. I invite them to.I wouldn’t be so sure about that. As presented here, your way of thinking is something you expect other things to fit into. You could learn a lot by reflecting on how absurd that idea is.
Sorry, all I see there is empty space. Let me know when you have a point to make.That has limited use, it may be interesting but it has no scope to actually provide and answer to anything, just some more or less interesting, abstract, arguments about this or that thing. Jesus’ approach is a lot simpler and more effective - try it and see.
True. Maybe if we're lucky you'll get to it sometime.Apart from that, it’s simply a fact that trying to interpret the bible without understanding what it meant at the time, without some idea at least of the overall way of thinking it was grounded it, is a pretty pointless exercise.
No, I'm saying that God never answers prayers. I rather have to, since I'm an atheist, and so don't believe God exists. I am here on this debating forum inviting you to prove me wrong.I didn’t say anything of the sort, just that I hadn’t experienced it in that direct sense. Actually however I had forgotten that I did once, as a teenager. I completely forgot about it but it came back to me for some reason. Anyway, not I didn’t say that God doesn’t answer prayers.
Well, you're the one who said (starting with post 204) that prayer could never be proved, because "The options for explaining one thing or another are endless, and we mostly choose one over another according to our overall perspective, way of thinking etc."Think again. What answers are valid, or useful, depends on the question and the subject matter. It’s not a difficult idea.
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