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What does it mean to say that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8)?

Discussion in 'Soteriology DEBATE' started by greyhawk.444, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. greyhawk.444

    greyhawk.444 New Member

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    God will by no means acquit those who are guilty, but will punish those concerned along with 3 to 4 generations of their descendants - This is according to Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18.

    This means that the vengeful God of Christianity (Nahum 1:2; Deuteronomy 6:15; 32:35; Romans 12:19) is now *resolved* to inflict retribution on the Chief priests and elders of Christendom who've tried to kill his son Jesus (John 11:48-51; Matthew 27:20).

    Since God is *resolved* to exact retribution or kill his enemies it therefore implies that Jesus Christ is the same (*constant*) yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

    Although there are many examples when God has changed his mind it doesn't mean to say that this would happen all the time - As it would imply that the God of Christianity had no integrity whatsoever - Exodus 32:14, Amos 7:3, Amos 7:6, Jonah 3:10, Jeremiah 26:13, 2 Samuel 24:16 - But on the contrary, both Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18 would serve to remind us that there are certain classes of offences (or sin) which could never expire since the crimes are too serious to have any statutory time limit e.g. Murder and armed robbery etc - Which means that anyone who is guilty could theoretically still be charged, trialed, and convicted even +40 years later, subject to the availability of evidence.

    So anybody who has sinned against God would either be killed physically (Ezekiel 18:4; Revelation 20:9) or face eternal death in the lake of fire (Ezekiel 18:4; Revelation 20:15; 21:8), and there's no way that you could possibly escape justice according to Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18.

    So, then who says that the God of Christianity isn't resolved to kill his enemies since he allegedly has "No integrity at all" according to some Christians - Wishful thinking is a fallacy of argument? (Hebrews 13:8; Exodus 20:5; Numbers 14:18; Nahum 1:2; Deuteronomy 6:15; 32:35; Jeremiah 25:33; Romans 12:19; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)
     
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  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    So ?
    There has never been a way anyone could escape YHWH'S justice,
    according to all Scripture.
     
  3. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why do you say Christendom? What Christian took part in trying to kill Jesus?

    Where is your scripture that says God doesn't forgive murder, etc.? He obviously does or David and, according to you, his descendants for three to four generations are in hell.
    Have I gotten that right?
     
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    All of them.
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Perhaps ,
    perhaps not. (in context of the posts, not 'stand alone' right or wrong)
     
  6. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Name a two or three, please.
     
  7. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, David is not in hell. If he is, so is his first born son. But more importantly is that God called David His Beloved after this incident took place and God continued to bless him throughout his life. David sincerely repented and God forgave him.
     
  8. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Romans 4:25
    KJ21
    who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification.
    ASV
    who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.
    AMP
    who was betrayed and crucified because of our sins, and was raised [from the dead] because of our justification [our acquittal—absolving us of all sin before God].
    AMPC
    Who was betrayed and put to death because of our misdeeds and was raised to secure our justification (our acquittal), [making our account balance and absolving us from all guilt before God].
    BRG
    Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
    CSB
    He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
    CEB
    He was handed over because of our mistakes, and he was raised to meet the requirements of righteousness for us.
    CJB
    Yeshua, who was delivered over to death because of our offences and raised to life in order to make us righteous.
     
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    There doesn't appear to be any dispute about this. It was something else.
     
  10. greyhawk.444

    greyhawk.444 New Member

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    Christianity is the Established religion of the End Times, which is equivalent to the Jewish elders and Pharisees at the time of Jesus in the 1st century Roman Empire - Thus, it's a valid observation to compare the Established religion of today with its equivalent in antiquity.


    False. God had to spare David's life despite his adultery with Bathsheba and his murder of Uriah the Hittite, because he was too important in God's dispensation to produce the lineage of the Messiah, Jesus - For any other person, it would've been a certain death (or 95-99% chance of execution, as well as forfeit the life of his illegitimate child) - Also, I need to remind you that God has prerogative powers, and discretionary powers (Romans 9:21) to kill the 'innocent', as much as allow those who are guilty of murder/genocide to go unpunished, according to Exodus 1:22 and 12:29 - Here lies the answer to your question, but he doesn't have to acquit those who are guilty - God can do whatever he likes since he is sovereign over his creation (Romans 9:21).
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  11. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think we have not been interrupting the OP's words in the same way,
    I agree with you that Jesus died for all men's sin, not just the Jews. So yes He died for Christian's sins. If no one sinned He wouldn't have needed to Redeemer us.

    But here is what the OP said and the scriptures that he gave as evidence.
    What chief priest and elders were Christens? What Christians tried to kill Jesus?
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    ??
    At the time before Jesus death and resurrection and ascension,
    there were no 'Christians'.
     
  13. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That may be true or not. But that is not what was said in the scriptures that you posted. No Christians were involved on that day. Jesus' followers did not take part in that crime.
    Sorry, God forgave David. And I'm sorry that doesn't fit your sense of justice, but God is sovereign, need I remind you, and knows a man's heart and mind. His justice is ALWAYS just.
    You don't know that. You are not the judge.
    Does God send a repentant man or woman to hell. NO. I do I know, because He said so.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  14. greyhawk.444

    greyhawk.444 New Member

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    God demonstrated that he has discretionary powers to condemn those who are allegedly 'innocent', as much as allow those who are guilty of murder/genocide to go unpunished (Exodus 1:22; 12:29) - This means that he can draw an arbitrary line anywhere he wants to condemn those who are allegedly 'innocent', whilst also allow those who are de facto guilty to go unpunished - By dividing the sheep and goats you will find that not all the sheep are perfectly innocent, and not all the goats are decidedly guilty.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    This is entirely too wishy-washy ...

    YHWH is Perfect in Judgment, there is no iniquity at all in Him, nor in His Judgment, on earth and in heaven and under the earth , eternally, forever.
     
  16. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Exactly. That is why I questioned what the OP said.
     
  17. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God has made promises when it comes to salvation. And you are saying that God lied.
    The sheep are those who obey God vs the goats, who do not.
    What does God command? When and if we sin, we repent. That is His rule, not something someone just made up.
     
  18. greyhawk.444

    greyhawk.444 New Member

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    Doesn't matter, but the analogy is still valid - As a Christian Pharisee you are in the equivalent position of the Jewish Pharisees and elders at the time of Jesus in the 1st century Roman Empire - Ezekiel 18:4 and Romans 6:23 say that anyone who has sinned against God or Jesus would deserve to be put to death assuming that it's a mortal sin which is serious enough to preclude God's forgiveness in most cases (Ezekiel 18:21-22).

    False. That God forgave David doesn't imply that he would extend his forgiveness to everyone - Not if you understand Exodus 12:29 correctly, and know that he is ultimately sovereign (Romans 9:21) - He has prerogative powers to make *arbitrary* decisions as to who should be saved or not.

    Whosoever does not honour the Son does not honour the One who sent him (John 5:23).

    For I seek not my own will but the will of the One who sent me (John 5:30).

    For I and My Father are One (John 10:30).

    As Jesus Christ is God Himself in the flesh (John 14:7; Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:15).

    False. What you claim is contrary to the Bible, according to Exodus 20:5 and Numbers 14:18 - God will by no means acquit those who are guilty, and God's forgiveness is generally not available to those who have committed mortal sins (Ezekiel 18:21-22) - Certainly not available to those who are guilty of the Eternal sin, which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-30).
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  19. greyhawk.444

    greyhawk.444 New Member

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    But that doesn't mean to say that repentance would always save you since you don't know if it would be accepted or not - God has the final say as to whether you will be saved or not (Romans 9:16) - But you can't "comeback" after committing blasphemy of the holy spirit, which is an eternal sin (Mark 3:28-30; Matthew 12:31-32).
     
  20. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It certainly does make a difference. You don't appear to understand what the Jewish leaders were condemned for. Jesus never said that they couldn't repent and be forgiven for their hypocrisies but He did say why they wouldn't be.

    Mat 23:13 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for ye do not go in, nor those going in do ye suffer to enter.

    I never said that it did. What I did say is that God promises to forgive those who turn to Him and repent. Which is what Davad did.
     
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