What does it mean to be taught by God?

tonychanyt

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My "very apparent animosity toward Calvinism" is apparently justified.
You are my brother in Christ. Calvin is my brother. Dikaioumenoi is my brother. We are brothers. We will see each other in heaven :)

Colossians 4:6
Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
 
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B Griffin

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You've got it backwards, brother. Your anti-Calvinist prejudice is not even allowing you to accurately and responsibly engage with the position. "Pre-programmed robots"? Really? Again, your criticisms simply dismiss any discussion of the relationship between God's decree and precepts, or concurrence of primary and secondary causes. They are grounded in a caricatured view of the position which you cannot seem to see past. No, that does not justify your animosity.

Now, do you have anything to offer in way of response to the argument provided?
First, there is no justification for comparing a student in a teacher-student relationship to a glass that must be etched. No one who has ever been a teacher has ever reached into a student's heart and changed him from being incapable of learning to incapable of not learning. And there is no evidence that John (or God) intended John 6 to go beyond what is normally understood to be true for teacher-student relationships.

The evidence to the contrary that God's "teaching" penetrates all human hearts, including especially the lost, and enters their understanding is overwhelming. We need look no further than Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.​

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.​

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.​

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.​

[The New King James Version (Ro 1:18–32). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

The underlined phrases in the passage above make it clear that 1) God's "teaching" penetrates the understanding of the lost, and 2) they purposefully choose to not go along with Him. They clearly "see" and "understand" and "know" God, but they "supress the truth" and refuse to "glorify Him as God" and are "unthankful", and for these reasons they "are without excuse". They "know" full well that those who practice evil are worthy of eternal condemnation, nevertheless they "not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them".

Second, there is no getting around the fact that God has determined that He will save all those who believe in Jesus. See, for instance, 1 Corinthians 1:21 -- "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe". In addition, there is no getting around the fact that God is involved evangelically in every salvation experience. Per the discussed verses in John 6, God draws people to Jesus, teaching them (among other things) that they are sinners in need of a Savior, that Jesus has the power to save them, and that they need to trust Him and go to Him. Per point number 1 above, there is no reason to say that God must reach into a person's heart to "automate" them for the chain-reaction to 1) "hear" God, then 2) "learn" from God, then 3) "trust" God, then 4) "go to Jesus for salvation", then 5) "get salvation from Jesus".

Not only does this sound robot-like, it contradicts all the Scriptures that tell us plainly that the life-altering change of heart that aligns us in all respects to God is the result of salvation, not the cause of salvation. For, when we first put our trust in Christ, He comes to live in us and we are born of God, we become His children (His offspring). We become new creatures, "created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). We become one spirit with Him because we are joined to Him (1 Cor 6:17). Now that we are children of God, we are led by the Spirit of God (Ro 8:14). But even now, we are not automatically doing everything He desires, but we must choose to walk in lock step with the Spirit in order to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:16). One day, eventually, we will be free of the flesh so that we will not be dragged into sin by it any more.

So no, it is not true that my "anti-Calvinist prejudice is not even allowing you to accurately and responsibly engage with the position". I am not prejudiced (defined by web dictionary: "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience") against Calvinism, because my opposition to it is reasoned and is based on many decades of actual experience. I accurately understand the practical implications of the Calvinist position and I am responsibly exposing and opposing them.

You should know that my criticisms do not "simply dismiss any discussion of the relationship between God's decree and precepts, or concurrence of primary and secondary causes". My criticisms expose the improper application of those concepts to God's evangelism of the lost. For example, it is clear that God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pe 3:9). This shows us the heart of God and His desire for all people to be saved, but it clear from other passages that not everyone comes to repentance and that some will perish. But it is wrong to apply the same reasoning to God's evangelism of the lost. For instance, when Jesus said, "While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light" (Jn 12:36), He was not expressing His heart's desire for everyone to be saved, knowing full well some would not. He was telling them to take advantage of their current situation so that they may become offspring of God and escape His condemnation. Otherwise, He would have said something like, "I really want all of you to come to me now so that you may have life, but I know that there are some of you (and I know who you are) that I will not change your heart to enable you and cause you to do so. There's no hope for you." So, just because I don't engage on one subject or another, that does not mean that I don't understand the issue, or that I'm not addressing it, or that I dismiss it. It just means I choose to go to the heart of the matter to expose the error instead of dealing with the jargon.
 
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B Griffin

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You are my brother in Christ. Calvin is my brother. Dikaioumenoi is my brother. We are brothers. We will see each other in heaven :)
That's what I have been assuming.
Colossians 4:6
Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.
Good verse. I suppose I shouldn't have owned the accusation against me, but it is true that I oppose Calvinism on its merits. However, I have no condemnation for and have expressed no condemnation for those who adhere to it. And yes, I do like salty speach. That's what will change minds if any minds will be changed.
 
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Dikaioumenoi

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First, there is no justification for comparing a student in a teacher-student relationship to a glass that must be etched. No one who has ever been a teacher has ever reached into a student's heart and changed him from being incapable of learning to incapable of not learning. And there is no evidence that John (or God) intended John 6 to go beyond what is normally understood to be true for teacher-student relationships.
Firstly, you're comparing apples and oranges. The actions of a human teacher don't necessarily tell us anything about the actions of an incomprehensible God, especially in regard to the question of one's very ability to come to Jesus.

Secondly, "there is no justification for..." is an assertion without an argument. I offered justification. It would be helpful to engage with the points raised in the argument presented. There's significance in the use of διδακτοί instead of διδάσκω, and I'd appreciate a deeper exploration of this rather than a dismissal. Unless you care not whether I give you any more of my time.

I understand that you may not like the conclusions I've drawn. But with all due respect I'm not interested in whether or not you like them. I'm interested in whether you can engage in a meaningful discussion. Do you have any exegetical insight to offer into John 6:45? See also my post concerning verse 44.

The evidence to the contrary that God's "teaching" penetrates all human hearts, including especially the lost, and enters their understanding is overwhelming. We need look no further than Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.​

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.​

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.​

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.​

[The New King James Version (Ro 1:18–32). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

The underlined phrases in the passage above make it clear that 1) God's "teaching" penetrates the understanding of the lost, and 2) they purposefully choose to not go along with Him. They clearly "see" and "understand" and "know" God, but they "supress the truth" and refuse to "glorify Him as God" and are "unthankful", and for these reasons they "are without excuse". They "know" full well that those who practice evil are worthy of eternal condemnation, nevertheless they "not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them".
But what is your argument that what "God has shown" in Romans 1 and what God has "taught" in John 6:45 refer to the same thing? Romans 1 is not a soteriological text. John 6 is. Can you expound upon the context of John 6:45 and explain why the "teaching" should be understood as a reference to the natural knowledge of God's nature and attributes?

I'll forgo addressing the rest of your comments here, but am happy to elsewhere. I don't want to venture too far off the topic of @tonychanyt 's OP. Let's continue this discussion in another thread. You're welcome to comment on my thread, linked above, or we can start a new one.
 
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B Griffin

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Do you have any exegetical insight to offer into John 6:45? See also my post concerning verse 44.
Can you expound upon the context of John 6:45 and explain why the "teaching" should be understood as a reference to the natural knowledge of God's nature and attributes?
I gave it already. It only took a cursory look at the verbs in the sentence to see that they were all active or middle voice, both of which indicate actions on the part of the subject. Your analysis of the use of the adjective (which only occurs twice in the NT) that it indicates action on the part of God to flip a switch inside a person's heart so that they may (and must) grasp and take to heart the teaching is simply unconvincing. The concept is unsupported in Scripture and in life. To demonstrate from Scripture that God "teaches" and "reveals" and "shows" and "makes Himself known" to the lost without flipping a switch, I showed you one example (from Romans 1).
But what is your argument that what "God has shown" in Romans 1 and what God has "taught" in John 6:45 refer to the same thing? Romans 1 is not a soteriological text. John 6 is.
This is terrible. You're conceding that God shows lost people that they are sinners worthy of eternal death (and though they know it, they stay on their path), but you say that God either witholds the knowledge of the Savior or that there is a switch that he must throw in their hearts to allow them to make their knowledge of the Savior effectual. Either way, this is terrible.

Terrible Case 1: They have knowledge of impending eternal condemnation, but have no knowledge of the Savior.
Terrible Case 2: They have knowledge of impending eternal conedmnation, they know there is a way out, but they have no ability to choose it.

Soteriology 101: "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." (Lk 13:3)

Evangelism of the lost to bring them to Christ is promarily God's role. He is involved in every salvation experience, working in the hearts of all people to draw them to Jesus. But He is not alone in this evangelical endeavor. Jesus spoke of the Father as One witness in John 5, but he also spoke of other witnesses: 1) Jesus' own testimony, 2) John the Baptist's testimony, 3) the Father's testimony, 4) the testimony of the miracles Jesus performed, and 5) the testimony of Scripture, They all speak with one purpose (explained later in John):

30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn 20:30–31)​

The "flip a switch" doctrine is antithetical to sound soteriology.

I will give you the last word on this, but I'm done.
 
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