What does it mean, this birth from the word of God?

David Lamb · Sep 11, 2024

Ain't Zwinglian said:
This is the distinction between Law and Gospel. Ordinance is Law. Sacrament is Gospel. For Baptists and American Evangelicals, Baptism is man's work through human hands. For the rest of us, (Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, Methodists, RCC and the Orthodox) Baptism is God's work through human hands.

But don't Lutherans etc. believe that being baptized is something that God commands? I know Anglicans, Roman Catholics, etc. believe that baptism actually makes somebody a Christian. (Some Anglicans sing a hymn which starts, "I was made a Christian when my name was given," which they believe was at baptism). Baptist believe that Baptism is a sign given to believers that they are indeed Christians. But surely we all believe that baptism is commanded or ordained by God.

Incidentally, I found your inclusion of Calvinists among those who believe God does something for the subject of baptism confusing because there are baptists who like me believe in the doctrines of grace, sometimes known as Calvinism.

Ain't Zwinglian · Sep 11, 2024

David Lamb said:
But don't Lutherans etc. believe that being baptized is something that God commands? I know Anglicans, Roman Catholics, etc. believe that baptism actually makes somebody a Christian. (Some Anglicans sing a hymn which starts, "I was made a Christian when my name was given," which they believe was at baptism). But surely we all believe that baptism is commanded or ordained by God.

Incidentally, I found your inclusion of Calvinists among those who believe God does something for the subject of baptism confusing because there are baptists who like me believe in the doctrines of grace, sometimes known as Calvinism.

Yeap. It is confusing. The Law commands baptism to be done through human hands. The Gospel is what Baptism accomplishes... it brings Christ and His forgiveness to the child. We are baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27). This is not man's work as Baptists and American Evangelicals contend, only God can accomplish this.

David Lamb · Sep 11, 2024

Ain't Zwinglian said:
Yeap. It is confusing. The Law commands baptism to be done through human hands. The Gospel is what Baptism accomplishes... it brings Christ and His forgiveness to the child. We are baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27). This is not man's work as Baptist and American Evangelicals contend, only God can accomplish this.

So why did Philip, when the Ethiopian eunuch asked for baptism, reply, "If you believe with all your heart, you may"? The eunuch had to show that he was already a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, a Christian. Being baptized wouldn't tun him into a believer.

Ain't Zwinglian · Sep 11, 2024

David Lamb said:
So why did Philip, when the Ethiopian eunuch asked for baptism, reply, "If you believe with all your heart, you may"? The eunuch had to show that he was already a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, a Christian. Being baptized wouldn't tun him into a believer.

Acts 8:37 textually is not in our earliest manuscripts. Therefore, not canonical Scripture. I will not comment.

I see where this conversation is going.....well, what about this and what about that......and more what about this and that.... and more and more and more about what about this and that. What did Paul say to Timothy...."study and show yourself approved unto God." Work the problem.

Xeno.of.athens · Sep 11, 2024

Ain't Zwinglian said:
Yeap. It is confusing. The Law commands baptism to be done through human hands. The Gospel is what Baptism accomplishes... it brings Christ and His forgiveness to the child. We are baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27). This is not man's work as Baptists and American Evangelicals contend, only God can accomplish this.

Amen, Baptism is a work of God. It is not a human accomplishment.

Xeno.of.athens · Sep 11, 2024

David Lamb said:
So why did Philip, when the Ethiopian eunuch asked for baptism, reply, "If you believe with all your heart, you may"? The eunuch had to show that he was already a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ, a Christian. Being baptized wouldn't tun him into a believer.

Acts 8:36-39 NET Now as they were going along the road, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water! What is to stop me from being baptized?” (38) So he ordered the chariot to stop, and both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him. (39) Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him any more, but went on his way rejoicing.

The words you rely upon are not in the passage unless you use the KJV (or a similarly old bible).

Clare73 · Sep 11, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
Can you show me where I changed the Greek word myterion to sacrament?

Strawman. . .

Clare73 · Sep 11, 2024

Ain't Zwinglian said:
Clare73 sure has a bee in her bonnet against the word "sacrament." It is a historical theological word maybe 1500 years old.

Time does not change error into truth, it does not change mysterium into sacramentum.

Xeno.of.athens · Sep 11, 2024

Clare73 said:
Time does not change error into truth, it does not change mysterium into sacramentum.

Debating this claim is unnecessary because it is fundamentally absurd. Saint Jerome consistently translated 'mysterion' as 'sacramentum' when required, as evidenced by the Vulgate.

Clare73 · Sep 11, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Debating this claim is unnecessary because it is fundamentally absurd. Saint Jerome consistently translated 'mysterion' as 'sacramentum' when required, as evidenced by the Vulgate.

Jerome had no authority to alter the meaning of the Greek NT text from mysterion (Latin mysterium, secret newly revealed) to sacramentum.

And time does not change error into truth.

Ain't Zwinglian · Sep 11, 2024

Clare73 said:
Time does not change error into truth, it does not change mysterium into sacramentum.

Oh no! Another 24 hours of ranting. Beer time!

Xeno.of.athens · Sep 11, 2024

Clare73 said:
Jerome had no authority to alter the meaning of the Greek NT text from mysterion (Latin mysterium, secret newly revealed) to sacramentum.

And time does not change error into truth.

Time doesn't make false statements into true ones, in most cases. Nor does lack of skill make an opinion true when it is in fact false.

Sacramentum is used in the verses I previously quoted for you; namely,

ut notum faceret nobis sacramentum voluntatis suae secundum bonum placitum eius quod proposuit in eo (Ephesians 1:9 Vulgate)

quoniam secundum revelationem notum mihi factum est sacramentum sicut supra scripsi in brevi (Ephesians 3:3 Vulgate)

sacramentum hoc magnum est ego autem dico in Christo et in ecclesia (Ephesians 5:32 Vulgate)

et manifeste magnum est pietatis sacramentum quod manifestatum est in carne iustificatum est in spiritu apparuit angelis praedicatum est gentibus creditum est in mundo adsumptum est in gloria (1 Timothy 3:16 Vulgate)

sacramentum septem stellarum quas vidisti in dextera mea et septem candelabra aurea septem stellae angeli sunt septem ecclesiarum et candelabra septem septem ecclesiae sunt (Revelation 1:20 Vulgate)

et dixit mihi angelus quare miraris ego tibi dicam sacramentum mulieris et bestiae quae portat eam quae habet capita septem et decem cornua (Revelation 17:7 Vulgate)

Clare73 · Sep 11, 2024

Ain't Zwinglian said:
Oh no! Another 24 hours of ranting. Beer time!

Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of my error. . .

Xeno.of.athens · Sep 11, 2024

Clare73 said:
Falls somewhat short of a Biblical demonstration of my error. . .

Since your posts ignored the biblical evidence, I guess your interlocutor decided to have some rest and recreation

ViaCrucis · Sep 11, 2024

Clare73 said:
Strawman. . .

Yes, you are engaging in a straw man argument.

-CryptoLutheran

Clare73 · Sep 11, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
Time doesn't make false statements into true ones, in most cases. Nor does lack of skill make an onion true when it is in fact false.

Sacramentum is used in the verses I previously quoted for you;

Not in the Greek texts. . .

The Greek text is mysterion, which is the Latin mysterium.

Xeno.of.athens said:
namely,
ut notum faceret nobis sacramentum voluntatis suae secundum bonum placitum eius quod proposuit in eo (Ephesians 1:9 Vulgate)
quoniam secundum revelationem notum mihi factum est sacramentum sicut supra scripsi in brevi (Ephesians 3:3 Vulgate)
sacramentum hoc magnum est ego autem dico in Christo et in ecclesia (Ephesians 5:32 Vulgate)
et manifeste magnum est pietatis sacramentum quod manifestatum est in carne iustificatum est in spiritu apparuit angelis praedicatum est gentibus creditum est in mundo adsumptum est in gloria (1 Timothy 3:16 Vulgate)
sacramentum septem stellarum quas vidisti in dextera mea et septem candelabra aurea septem stellae angeli sunt septem ecclesiarum et candelabra septem septem ecclesiae sunt (Revelation 1:20 Vulgate)
et dixit mihi angelus quare miraris ego tibi dicam sacramentum mulieris et bestiae quae portat eam quae habet capita septem et decem cornua (Revelation 17:7 Vulgate)

The Greek word in those verses is mystery (mysterion), not sacrament (sacramentum).
And those mysteries are specifically stated to be the following, none of which are "sacraments."

God's promise to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9),
inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Eph 3:3-6),
the change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Co 15:51),
the plan of God by which a remnant of both Jew and Gentile will be included in his kingdom (Ro 11:25),
the secret wisdom (1 Co 2:7) of the death of Christ (1 Co 2:1),
the incarnation (1 Tim 3:16).

Perhaps you could explain how the above mysterion (mysteries) are "sacrament."

Xeno.of.athens · Sep 11, 2024

Clare73 said:
The Greek word in those verses is mystery (mysterion), not sacrament (sacramentum).
And those mysteries are specifically stated to be the following, none of which are "sacraments."

You may not know it but the Vulgate is a Latin bible, not a Greek one.

ViaCrucis · Sep 11, 2024

Ain't Zwinglian said:
Yeap. It is confusing. The Law commands baptism to be done through human hands. The Gospel is what Baptism accomplishes... it brings Christ and His forgiveness to the child. We are baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27). This is not man's work as Baptists and American Evangelicals contend, only God can accomplish this.

Amen.

God commands His Church to baptize. (Law)
God works through baptism to accomplish His gracious power and give His gifts. (Gospel)

It is because God works through baptism to accomplish His gracious power and give His gifts that it is a sacrament, not a mere ordinance. To call it an ordinance is to deny God's sacrament of its grace and power.

-CryptoLutheran

Xeno.of.athens · Sep 11, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
Amen.

God commands His Church to baptize. (Law)
God works through baptism to accomplish His gracious power and give His gifts. (Gospel)

It is because God works through baptism to accomplish His gracious power and give His gifts that it is a sacrament, not a mere ordinance. To call it an ordinance is to deny God's sacrament of its grace and power.

-CryptoLutheran

Reducing a sacrament to just an ordinance of a particular church is one method of diminishing the divine to simply human action.

Clare73 · Sep 11, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
You may not know it but the Vulgate is a Latin bible, not a Greek one.

That makes it a translation from the Greek, and the first translation out of the Greek.

And the Latin "sacramentum" makes it an erroneous translation of the Greek mysterion.

What does it mean, this birth from the word of God?

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