• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What does it mean, this birth from the word of God?

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,651
29,250
Pacific Northwest
✟817,650.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Where is the word "sacrament" in the NT?

In the same place where it says "Trinity" and "Biblical Canon".

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,275
805
Oregon
✟168,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
but scripture is clear on this, it is blood that adopts you into GOD's family, not water.
The question is raised....does paper and ink adopt you into God's family? Faith comes by hear and hearing by the Word of God? (Romans 10:17) Paper and ink are the means by with the HS brings all people to faith.

So does baptism contain the Word of God? Of course it does.... Eph 5:26-27 just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the Word,

Baptists and American Evangelical only think of baptism as water not WATER AND THE WORD. And wherever the Word of God there is the Spirit. And there is no such thing as a Spiritless Word as there is no such thing as a Spiritless baptism. See post #40.

Baptism is a vehical by which Christ is brought to the recipient through the work of the HS in Baptism.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,312
1,946
61
✟230,684.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
The question is raised....does paper and ink adopt you into God's family? Faith comes by hear and hearing by the Word of God? (Romans 10:17) Paper and ink are the means by with the HS brings all people to faith.

You may want to update your bible translation to something more recent,....

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Also, the Greek word for "word" in that statement is Rhema, meaning it is the spoken word of Christ that produces faith. We live by the faith "of" The Son of GOD.
 
Reactions: Ted-01
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,275
805
Oregon
✟168,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Also, the Greek word for "word" in that statement is Rhema, meaning it is the spoken word of Christ that produces faith. We live by the faith "of" The Son of GOD.
Precisely....the Rhema produces faith.......No such thing as the as a Spiritless Word either Rhema or Logos.

The spoken Word then is the written Word now. No distinction. I don't believe in a Red letter edition to the Bible. Rhema and logos are still paper and ink.
 
Reactions: Ted-01
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,312
1,946
61
✟230,684.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican

We really are not on the same page, forgive the pun.

You are attempting to believe from what is written. I have faith because of Who I'm connected to above.

It's really two different worlds.
 
Reactions: Ted-01
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,275
805
Oregon
✟168,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You are attempting to believe from what is written. I have faith because of Who I'm connected to above.
Same world. You have faith due to the fact the HS working though the Word worked faith in you to believe the gospel promises.

Believing in the written gospel promises of the forgiveness of sins by Christ gives certainty of faith.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,312
1,946
61
✟230,684.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Same world...

Well,... no.

You're correct in your assessment of the gospel message, but that gospel message also led to an actual answer from heaven to me and a tangible change to me that same night. My experience was very much like Paul's on the road to Damascus.

I'm not here to uplift myself. I seek the spoken words from Christ Himself, not just what is written in our bibles, that is where I say we are different.
 
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,275
805
Oregon
✟168,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
As circumcision symbolized admittance into the Old Covenant by birth (Col 2:11-12), so baptism symbolizes admittance into the New Covenant through faith by the rebirth (Jn 3:3-5).
The greek word symbolia is not found in the NT nor the LXX. Baptism doesn't symbolize anything as no text in the NT defines it as such. The NIV does translate antitypon as "symbolize" but is it an anomaly and was criticized when released in 1970's.
Tell it to Paul. Col 2:11-12 is his analogy.
This is not an analogy. The word is not found in the Colossian context.

Comparing and contrasting baptism and circumcision is complicated. I certainly do not take the Reformed view which connects circumcision to their concept of covenant, which assures salvation to children of believers. Zwingli also had this notion.

  • Certainly, circumcision and baptism are divinely mandated.
  • Circumcision is of limited duration of time, whereas baptism is to continue until time ceases to exist.
  • Circumcision is not identical to baptism. Circumcision contains many promises that Baptism doesn’t have. Gen 17:1ff promises of descendants, being friutful, land are attached to circumcision. Possibly one spiritual promise comes from circumcision...the promise of Christ as a descendant. Baptism contain no physical promises.

The reason why interpreting Col. 2 is difficult is this is the only time circumcision is used as a model of baptism. No parallel passage to help interpretation. Hence, I approach Col. 2 with some humility.

For example, is there a connection between Col. 2 and Galations?.....where Paul confronts the Judaizers stating that Baptism had finally taken the place of circumcision. We just don't know.

I find the usage of typology far more useful in I Peter 3 and I Cor 10 to understand baptism in terms of the OT.

Circumcision of the OT do not share the incarnation and atonement the way the Lord's Supper and baptism do. Still, Paul's comparison of Baptism to circumcision centers on the rejection of sin and inclusion in Christ. Baptism removes sin, as circumcison removes the flesh of the body and incorporates the Baptized into Christ's death and resurrection as circumcision incorporated it recipients into the saving community of Israel.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,553
2,409
Perth
✟204,511.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The NIV has consistent evangelical biases, hence the incorrect translation of tradition as teaching in positive contexts and as tradition in negative contexts. So too we see it with symbolises as you have noted. On the whole the NIV is fine but when evangelical doctrine or tradition is at stake then it can be relied upon to choose doctrine above truth. It also reflects Baptist-like ecclesiology with words such as overseer rather than bishop. Thus, the NIV must be read with caution.
 
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,275
805
Oregon
✟168,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I like the NIV for one reason only. The wording flows better during the oral reading of the Sunday Lectionaries. Our church uses the ESV which is NASB lite, and just doesn't do well for public reading.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,438
7,592
North Carolina
✟348,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In Latin it is Sacrementum, in Greek Mysterion.
In the NT, the Greek mysterion = "mystery"--something formerly hidden but now revealed by God for all to understand,
where examples of it are stated in:
God's promise to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9),
inclusion of both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Eph 3:3-6),
the change that will take place at the resurrection (1 Co 15:51),
the plan of God by which a remnant of both Jew and Gentile will be included in his kingdom (Ro 11:25),
the secret wisdom (1 Co 2:7) of the death of Christ (1 Co 2:1),
the incarnation (1 Tim 3:16).

What is the Biblical basis for altering the meaning of "mystery" from "something newly revealed" to the church rites of "sacraments"?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,553
2,409
Perth
✟204,511.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
What is the Biblical basis for "mystery" being the church rites of "sacraments"?
The Lord's Supper is the mystery of faith, and baptism is the mystery of the Spirit. These are fundamental tenets that are found within the Holy Scriptures.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,438
7,592
North Carolina
✟348,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In the same place where it says "Trinity" and "Biblical Canon".
Nice try. . .but not analogous.

There is no "Trinity" nor "Biblical Canon" in the NT, but
there is mysterion, which has a translation in the English and a definition in the Greek. . .and neither are "sacrament."

On what authority do you change the actual text of the NT word of God from "mystery" to "sacrament"?
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Ted-01
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,438
7,592
North Carolina
✟348,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In my vulgate it is in many places.
Do you know which Greek text the Vulgate was translated from?

Is the word in that Greek text the same as the word quoted in the texts of post #52, mysterion?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ain't Zwinglian

Well-Known Member
Feb 23, 2020
1,275
805
Oregon
✟168,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Geez, you just said baptism is a symbol and Col 2 was analogy in post #49....both which are not NT terms. By what authority did you add to Scripture something that is not in the text? Get a beer and chill out.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,553
2,409
Perth
✟204,511.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Do you know which Greek text the Vulgate was translated from?

Is the word there in the Greek text mysterion?
I imagine that saint Jerome used whatever text was common in his day, in around 400 AD, and yes "mystery" is there. So, now that we have established that sacrament is a bible word let's move on.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,438
7,592
North Carolina
✟348,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Geez, you just said baptism is a symbol and Col 2 was analogy in post #49....both which are not NT terms. By what authority did you add to Scripture something that is not in the text?
Not analogous. . .intellectual honesty?

Noun, verb, predicate, preposition are also not NT terms, yet the NT is covered over with them.
Get a beer and chill out.
Non-responsive. . .
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,438
7,592
North Carolina
✟348,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The Lord's Supper is the mystery of faith, and baptism is the mystery of the Spirit. These are fundamental tenets that are found within the Holy Scriptures.
Where is that stated in the NT?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,438
7,592
North Carolina
✟348,409.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I imagine that saint Jerome used whatever text was common in his day, in around 400 AD, and yes "mystery" is there.
And Jerome translated the Greek mysterion as "sacrament" instead of "mystery"?
So, now that we have established that sacrament is a bible word let's move on.
Your hermeneutic has quite a limp. . .more like a broken leg.
 
Upvote 0