What Does it Mean For God to do Something for his glory?

[JeromiusintoOnesimus]

I have heard many Calvinists say that God appoints (predestinates) people to Hell for his glory. What does this mean? We give glory to God, as that is the main purpose of man along with enjoying him forever, but how does God do something for his glory? What does that mean?

 

[twin1954]

I have heard many Calvinists say that God appoints (predestinates) people to Hell for his glory. What does this mean? We give glory to God, as that is the main purpose of man along with enjoying him forever, but how does God do something for his glory? What does that mean?

God glorifies Himself in sovereign mercy.

(Exo 33:18) And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

(Exo 33:19) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

God glorifies Himself before all His creation. He glorifies Himself in His acts that go beyong what any created being can imagine or know.

The Scriptures declare that the angels know nothing of the grace and mercy of God except as they observe it in His people.

(Eph 3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(Eph 3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

(Eph 3:11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

While I am not sure about how God's justice glorifies Him except in the fact that it shows His righteousness and justness. I don't think that God punishes in order to glorify Himself, He delights in mercy, but simply because He must give what is just.

 

[RDKirk]

I have heard many Calvinists say that God appoints (predestinates) people to Hell for his glory. What does this mean? We give glory to God, as that is the main purpose of man along with enjoying him forever, but how does God do something for his glory? What does that mean?

First define the terms. What does this Christianese word "glory" actually mean?

 

[JeromiusintoOnesimus]

First define the terms. What does this Christianese word "glory" actually mean?

I believe that when we say we glorify God we mean that we give him all honor, praise, worship and thanksgiving. What I don't understand in the Calvinist perspective is that God appoints people to hell so as to bring him glory. I don't understand what they mean when they use glory in that sense.

 

[RDKirk]

Those particular Calvinists may use the word wrong.

How does scripture use the word?

 

[JeromiusintoOnesimus]

Those particular Calvinists may use the word wrong.

How does scripture use the word?

it seems to me that when Scripture uses the word it uses it in different ways.

1. As beauty and splendor
-"And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. The glory of the heavenly body is one sort and the earthly another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon and another glory of the stars, for star differs from star in glory." 1 Cor. 15:40-41
-"So I got up and went out to the valley, and the glory of the Lord was standing there, just like the glory I had seen by the Kebar River, and I threw myself facedown." Ez. 3:23

2. As praise and worship
-"May glory be given to God our Father forever and ever. Amen." Phil. 4:20

That's the ones I can come up with at the top of my head.

 

[JM]

When sin and sinners are punished God is glorified. In other forms of Christian theology God tries to save as many as He can but has to punish them for not being savable.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[JeromiusintoOnesimus]

When sin and sinners are punished God is glorified. In other forms of Christian theology God tries to save as many as He can but has to punish them for not being savable.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

But how is he glorified through punishing sinners? What does that mean?

 

[twin1954]

I believe that when we say we glorify God we mean that we give him all honor, praise, worship and thanksgiving. What I don't understand in the Calvinist perspective is that God appoints people to hell so as to bring him glory. I don't understand what they mean when they use glory in that sense.

Your first mistake is to think that Calvinists believe that God appoints people to Hell. That simply isn't true. While there are some who do believe in double predestination it is not the commonly held belief among Calvinists.

What we actually believe is that the whole human race, children of Adam, are naturally under the wrath of God and deserve all the punishment that sinners should receive. We are as bad as any sinner who ever lived in and of ourselves.

But God, in His wondrous mercy, grace and love, has chosen some out of fallen humanity to be the objects of His love and sent the Son to die in their place accomplishing their redemption.

The rest of fallen humanity simply get what they deserve and actually what they desire because they will not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

God's sovereignty in electing love in no way keeps out any who want in. It guaranties that there will be many in Heaven with Christ.

So you see that God is glorified in sovereign mercy saving some and the rest simply get what they deserve.

 

[AMR]

I have heard many Calvinists say that God appoints (predestinates) people to Hell for his glory. What does this mean? We give glory to God, as that is the main purpose of man along with enjoying him forever, but how does God do something for his glory? What does that mean?

1. Election is a sovereign free act of God, through which He determines who shall be made righteous.
2. The elective decree was made in eternity.
3. The elective decree contemplates mankind as already fallen in Adam. All men sinned in Adam just as if they were there with Adam in the Garden.
4. The elect are brought from a state of sin and into a state of blessedness and happiness.
5. Election is personal determining by God of what particular individuals shall be saved.
6. Election includes both means and ends—election to eternal life includes election to righteous living here in this world.
7. The elective decree is made effective by the efficient work of the Holy Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases.
8. God's common grace would incline all men to good if not resisted.
9. The elective decree leaves behind in their sin others who are not elected—others who suffer the just consequences of their sin.
10. Some men are permitted to follow the evil which they freely choose, to their own destruction.
11. God, in His sovereignty, could regenerate all men if He chose to do so.
12. The Judge of all the earth will do right, and will extend His saving grace to multitudes who are undeserving.
13. Election is not based on foreseen faith or good works, but only on God's sovereign good pleasure.
14. Much of the larger portion of the human race has been elected to life.
15. All elect infants dying in infancy are not lost to God.
16. There has also been an election of individuals and of nations to external and temporal favors and privileges—an election which falls short of salvation.
17. The doctrine of election is repeatedly taught and emphasized throughout the Scriptures.

 

[TaylorSexton]

But how is he glorified through punishing sinners? What does that mean?

It means that God's perfect justice as expressed in his retribution, being an outworking of his attribute of perfect holiness, is displayed for all creation to see.

 

[JeromiusintoOnesimus]

So why

Your first mistake is to think that Calvinists believe that God appoints people to Hell. That simply isn't true. While there are some who do believe in double predestination it is not the commonly held belief among Calvinists.

What we actually believe is that the whole human race, children of Adam, are naturally under the wrath of God and deserve all the punishment that sinners should receive. We are as bad as any sinner who ever lived in and of ourselves.

But God, in His wondrous mercy, grace and love, has chosen some out of fallen humanity to be the objects of His love and sent the Son to die in their place accomplishing their redemption.

The rest of fallen humanity simply get what they deserve and actually what they desire because they will not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

God's sovereignty in electing love in no way keeps out any who want in. It guaranties that there will be many in Heaven with Christ.

So you see that God is glorified in sovereign mercy saving some and the rest simply get what they deserve.

So Why does God not choose everyone to become saved that they may all be in Heaven with Christ? All men are fallen, so those who God chose are no better than those he didn't, so why not choose everyone in the world?

 

[TaylorSexton]

So Why does God not choose everyone to become saved that they may all be in Heaven with Christ? All men are fallen, so those who God chose are no better than those he didn't, so why not choose everyone in the world?

I think it was either Calvin or Augustine (or the former quoting the latter) who said that it is error to seek a cause above the will of God.

In other words, he chose not to save all because he chose not to. I don't say that to be funny, but that is really what it is. He does whatever he does because he sees fit to do it. There is no higher cause than his will. There is nothing that causes God to do or be anything, or else that cause would be God.

 

[twin1954]

So why

So Why does God not choose everyone to become saved that they may all be in Heaven with Christ? All men are fallen, so those who God chose are no better than those he didn't, so why not choose everyone in the world?

That is a question that you must ask God. Paul makes it very clear that we have no right to judge God, which is exactly what we do when we ask such questions, in Rom. 9:18-21.

(Rom 9:18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

(Rom 9:19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

(Rom 9:20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

(Rom 9:21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The simple fact is that it is God's mercy and He can give it to whomever He will. He had no mercy on the fallen angels and will have no mercy on any who die in their sin He gives them their just reward.

What we must rejoice in is that He does have mercy and He has it on us. God's sovereign electing love is actually the most humbling thing that can ever happen to a sinner. It puts the sinner on his face at the feet of Christ because He didn't have to have mercy on me and could have just as easily left me to myself and my sin.

 

[JeromiusintoOnesimus]

That is a question that you must ask God. Paul makes it very clear that we have no right to judge God, which is exactly what we do when we ask such questions, in Rom. 9:18-21.

(Rom 9:18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

(Rom 9:19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

(Rom 9:20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

(Rom 9:21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The simple fact is that it is God's mercy and He can give it to whomever He will. He had no mercy on the fallen angels and will have no mercy on any who die in their sin He gives them their just reward.

What we must rejoice in is that He does have mercy and He has it on us. God's sovereign electing love is actually the most humbling thing that can ever happen to a sinner. It puts the sinner on his face at the feet of Christ because He didn't have to have mercy on me and could have just as easily left me to myself and my sin.

I understand, thank you for your apt response.

 

[twin1954]

I understand, thank you for your apt response.

I only hope that it was helpful to you.

 

[hedrick]

Calvin's statements give some people the impression that God glories in destroying people. That doesn't seem to be Calvin's meaning. He believes that the overall plan of salvation, including the fates of both those who are saved and those who are not, gives glory to God. A reasonable (and Biblical) understanding would be that in the case of those who aren't predestined for salvation, the glory results from God dealing with causes of injustice.

 

[Skala]

But how is he glorified through punishing sinners? What does that mean?

God is glorified in punishing sinners the same way he is glorified in saving sinners.

God's attributes are not only mercy and grace, but also wrath and justice. He is not only the "nice, fluffy stuff", but he also has other facets that are just as important, and he wishes to display the full range of his attributes. If he only displayed certain attributes but not others, he would not be expressing himself fully to his creation.

He is glorified in saving sinners because his mercy and grace are demonstrated and highlighted.
He is glorified in punishing sinners because his holiness, hatred of sin, and justice are demonstrated and highlighted.

 

[stenerson]

? We give glory to God, as that is the main purpose of man along with enjoying him forever, but how does God do something for his glory? What does that mean?

God glorifies Himself by displaying all His attributes. His love, His justice, His Mercy, His wrath towards evil, His holiness etc.
Arminians and other sub-christian theologies shy away from some of those attributes. They'll quote a passage like "God is love" as if to deny the other attributes of his character. This can happen on both ends of the spectrum, some that only preach fire and brimstone without making clear the good news.

 

[twin1954]

God is glorified in punishing sinners the same way he is glorified in saving sinners.

God's attributes are not only mercy and grace, but also wrath and justice. He is not only the "nice, fluffy stuff", but he also has other facets that are just as important, and he wishes to display the full range of his attributes. If he only displayed certain attributes but not others, he would not be expressing himself fully to his creation.

He is glorified in saving sinners because his mercy and grace are demonstrated and highlighted.
He is glorified in punishing sinners because his holiness, hatred of sin, and justice are demonstrated and highlighted.

Not that I disagree with you for certainly God is glorified in all that He does. I just wonder what the Scriptures actually emphasize. It seems to me that they emphasize His mercy and grace and His justice as what He must do rather than what He desires to do.

It seems to me to be just a logical conclusion instead of a Scriptural teaching that God is glorified in His just damnation of sinners.