What does having 96% chimp dna mean to you?

[DogmaHunter]

so this isnt a car if it has a living traits like self replication and organic components:

fair enough.

I have an idea. Let's turn it around....

This is a very serious question for you xianghua. Answer it honestly.
Consider these pictures:

In that photo, you can see something that very much looks like a human woman. However, it is a robot. It is not made of organic components. It has no organs, instead it has electrical ciruits and microchips and harddrives. Perhaps even a USB port and Wifi. It is not alive. It does not self-replicate. It runs on batteries instead of food.

Here's the question: is it a human?

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

I have an idea. Let's turn it around....

This is a very serious question for you xianghua. Answer it honestly.
Consider these pictures:

View attachment 218494 View attachment 218495

In that photo, you can see something that very much looks like a human woman. However, it is a robot. It is not made of organic components. It has no organs, instead it has electrical ciruits and microchips and harddrives. Perhaps even a USB port and Wifi. It is not alive. It does not self-replicate. It runs on batteries instead of food.

Here's the question: is it a human?

it looks human, therefore we can determine it IS human!
</xianghua>

 

[doubtingmerle]

so this isnt a car if it has a living traits like self replication and organic components:

fair enough.

Again, how does it replicate?
Again, how does it replicate?
Again, how does it replicate?

If it reproduces by a single fertilized egg guided by DNA that makes more cells until it builds a multicellular organism that resembles this, then it is most likely an animal.

If it reproduces by mechanically building copies of itself, then it is a totally automated factory on wheels and is probably roughly the size of Detroit.

Again, how does it replicate?
Again, how does it replicate?
Again, how does it replicate?

 

[xianghua]

If it reproduces by a single fertilized egg guided by DNA that makes more cells until it builds a multicellular organism that resembles this, then it is most likely an animal.

you are welcome to call it animal. i will just call it a car even in this case.

If it reproduces by mechanically building copies of itself, then it is a totally automated factory on wheels and is probably roughly the size of Detroit.

and what make you think that this is impossible when the DNA example you gave above is more likely?

 

[Speedwell]

you are welcome to call it animal. i will just call it a car even in this case.

Calling it a car doesn't make it more likely that it was designed.

 

[doubtingmerle]

you are welcome to call it animal. i will just call it a car even in this case.

You are welcome to call it any thing you want.

The important thing is, that no matter what you call it, it is still an animal. And as you finally agreed, animals can do some things non-living things can't do.

Real cars cannot evolve biologically. Animals that resemble cars could do some things non- living things cannot do ( such as evolve biologically).

 

[doubtingmerle]

and what make you think that this is impossible when the DNA example you gave above is more likely?

I work as an engineer automating production. I can tell you from 40 years experience in the field that building a car that will build copies of itself without human intervention is a huge undertaking.

Think what it would take. Start with automating every function in a Ford factory including maintenance and material handling. Then add in every factory function for the components including tire factories, steel mills, and computer chip factories. Then add in all mining, transportation, and power generation. Do that all without any person involved. Congratulations, you built a totally automated car factory.

But wait, your factory also needs to be a "car", so put it on wheels and give it an engine. Now you have a "car" that builds regular cars.

But that is not the requirement. You need this "car" to build copies of itself, including building and maintaining all the factories we just mentioned.

That is why I said half jokingly that this "car" that manufactures copies of itself would probably be the size of Detroit.

 

[xianghua]

I work as an engineer automating production. I can tell you from 40 years experience in the field that building a car that will build copies of itself without human intervention is a huge undertaking.

and yet you believe that nature was smarter then human and made such a complex system that can replicate itself.

you also didnt answer the question. again: what make you think that its possible to evolve an animal that can replicate itself but not a car that is able to do that?

 

[Speedwell]

and yet you believe that nature was smarter then human and made such a complex system that can replicate itself.

Now you're getting it. The totality of the biosphere is an immense information processing system which in aggregate is better at designing living creatures than any human engineer could ever be.

 

[pitabread]

and yet you believe that nature was smarter then human and made such a complex system that can replicate itself.

It's not just nature that's smarter; it's arguably the evolutionary process itself that can result in more complex or unexpected output than deliberate design.

There are examples in engineering of evolutionary algorithms producing more complex results than a human designer would otherwise have come up with.

That's what is so cool about the power of recursion. You can get incredibly complex results from simple starting premises.

 

[doubtingmerle]

you also didnt answer the question. again: what make you think that its possible to evolve an animal that can replicate itself but not a car that is able to do that?

Regarding the evidence that evolution happened, see the link I gave to you a gazillion times.

Why can animals do it and not cars? Please refer to any biology 101 textbook..

Here is the short answer: the body of an animal can take slighty different forms from its parents for the same reason a single call can grow to an adult. Small changes in the way the code activates in the life of the animal changes the way the cells form new cells as it grows.

By contrast, gearboxes are not multicellular. Hence a small change in code activation will not cause a gearbox to go through puberty.

Puberty will not change my car into a muscle car.

Nor will my car ever produce a fertilized egg.

 

[DogmaHunter]

you are welcome to call it animal. i will just call it a car even in this case.

It seems you have missed my post (or you are on purpose doing your very best to ignore it...)

Here's the post in question: What does having 96% chimp dna mean to you?

Please answer the question.

Is it a human?

 

[DogmaHunter]

That's what is so cool about the power of recursion. You can get incredibly complex results from simple starting premises.

And a very simple process of "reproduce with variation, subject to fitness test, select breeding pairs based on results of the test, repeat".

 

[DogmaHunter]

and yet you believe that nature was smarter then human and made such a complex system that can replicate itself.

Nature is not an entity capable of being "smart" or "dumb".
And complexity is not an indicator of design.

I can design something extremely simple like a walking stick and nature can "create" something extremely complex like a hurricane.

If complexity was an indicator of design, then we would have to conclude that (created) walking sticks are natural objects while (natural) hurricanes are artificial things.

I'll go ahead and assume that you will agree that that is kind of crazy....

you also didnt answer the question.

Are you planning on answering my question earlier in this thread any time soon....?

What does having 96% chimp dna mean to you?

Is it a "human"? Can we call it a "human"?

again: what make you think that its possible to evolve an animal that can replicate itself

The evidence that shows that animals evolved.

but not a car that is able to do that?

The evidence that shows that cars are manufactured at an assembly line in human operated factories.

 

[xianghua]

Nature is not an entity capable of being "smart" or "dumb".
And complexity is not an indicator of design.

I can design something extremely simple like a walking stick and nature can "create" something extremely complex like a hurricane.

If complexity was an indicator of design, then we would have to conclude that (created) walking sticks are natural objects while (natural) hurricanes are artificial things.

I'll go ahead and assume that you will agree that that is kind of crazy....



Are you planning on answering my question earlier in this thread any time soon....?

What does having 96% chimp dna mean to you?

Is it a "human"? Can we call it a "human"?



The evidence that shows that animals evolved.



The evidence that shows that cars are manufactured at an assembly line in human operated factories.

this isnt a human (by definition) since it has no organic components or the ability to reproduce or a free will.

 

[DogmaHunter]

this isnt a human (by definition) since it has no organic components or the ability to reproduce or a free will.

If that isn't a human.....
Then why would an animal that resembles a car, be called a "car"?

 

[Jimmy D]

this isnt a human (by definition) since it has no organic components or the ability to reproduce or a free will.

WOW.

Dogmahunter's post above intrigued me enough to "show ignored content".

It seems xianghua's finally got it!

 

[Skreeper]

WOW.

Dogmahunter's post above intrigued me enough to "show ignored content".

It seems xianghua's finally got it!

And it only took him 2400 posts. Incredible!

 

[DogmaHunter]

And it only took him 2400 posts. Incredible!

Let's first await his answer to the question of why an animal that resembles a car, would be called a car, if indeed a cyborg can't be called a human, before assuming we can finally move on!

I have a feeling that we will be amazed again. And not in a good way.

 

[doubtingmerle]

And it only took him 2400 posts. Incredible!

Do we get to declare victory and go home?