What does every body think of this verse?

[DontTreadOnMike]

Hebrews 6:4-8
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."

What does it say about the view that once you're a Christian, it's impossible to fall away; and if you do fall away you were never a Christian? This verse seems to say otherwise. And obviously in addition to that it says it's impossible to come back to the faith once you've rejected it, so is there any point trying to evangelize to ex-Christians?

 

[razeontherock]

It's dangerous to build a doctrine on a single verse. "Let every word be established by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses." If the Bible really says what we think it does, it will say the same thing at least one other place. And in my experience, then there will also be at least one other mention, even if that one is veiled.

Then you have the issue of other verses seeming to question, or even contradict an understanding we may have. This is how language works! We qualify ourselves; "this, not that." Not very efficient if we're trying to pick a color paint

All of this produces humility in us. We have to go through a period of uncertainty. (Either that or we rush in like fools)

I would be interested in somebody showing other verses from the Bible that support the line of thought expressed in the OP. I can't think of any, so I can't conclude it's telling us that evangelizing ex-Christians is wrong or even futile.

The original language for "brought back to repentance" might prove to hold some key understanding? We do have a somewhat parallel, with the story of Jesus casting 7 devils out of someone, and saying go and sin no more otherwise you'll suffer an even worse fate. We're also told that under certain conditions there "remains no more sacrifice for sins, but just a fearful looking for of fiery Judgment."

That seems to me to speak to the same thing as in the OP, and also contains the solution; namely, returning to the fear of the Lord, the beginning of Wisdom. In other words, I don't think it's so easy to walk out of His hand even when we decide to, and no man can pluck us out of it.

Here's how I think that works:

YouTube - Casting Crowns - Slow Fade

 

[merryheart]

The way I see it is that if you are irredeemable, then you will also lack any desire to be redeemed - since that desire is placed in one by the holy spirit. conversely - the presence of a desire to be redeemed indicates that the holy spirit is still calling you to repentance and that it is therefore possible.

 

[razeontherock]

Sorry I have to ask: does it then follow that someone that isn't concerned with "being redeemed" is irredeemable?

How would one become irredeemable? (Sounds scary to me)

 

[merryheart]

Sorry I have to ask: does it then follow that someone that isn't concerned with "being redeemed" is irredeemable?

How would one become irredeemable? (Sounds scary to me)

naw... they may not be ready yet

jesus said that the only unforgiveable sin was "blasphemy against the holy spirit" whatever that is (and i have yet to find two people that agree) i guess it would make one irredeemable - but the judgement of that - i am happy to leave to him. whatever it is causes the holy spirit to withdraw from the one who has done it.

my point - i guess - is that if a person is asking the question, and behind the question is that fear if being beyond redemption, then imo - they are not. the desire for redemption is placed there by the holy spirit - which indicates that the holy spirit has not withdrawn.

 

[razeontherock]

Thanks

 

[JJWhite]

Merryheart, could you please share the verse about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit being the only unforgivable sin? Our scriptures indicate that the only unforgivable sin is idolatry. That would be an interesting thing to compare.

 

[Robban]

Merryheart, could you please share the verse about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit being the only unforgivable sin? Our scriptures indicate that the only unforgivable sin is idolatry. That would be an interesting thing to compare.

And I understand the only sin that is unforgivable is,when I do not forgive someone who has sinned against me, because no one has the right to represent me and forgive him/her. Well there you go, what you pack is what you take with you.

 

[JJWhite]

And I understand the only sin that is unforgivable is,when I do not forgive someone who has sinned against me, because no one has the right to represent me and forgive him/her. Well there you go, what you pack is what you take with you.

"And they must pardon and overlook. Would you not like that God should forgive you? And God is Forgiving and Merciful." (24:22)

There's a hadith that says that instructs us to tell those that we feel love for in God's way that we love them. I think I'll follow that advice right now. Your posts are always so full of love for God, Robban, and this fills my heart with love for you. May God bless you always, and guide us all to all that pleases Him.

 

[Robban]

"And they must pardon and overlook. Would you not like that God should forgive you? And God is Forgiving and Merciful." (24:22)

There's a hadith that says that instructs us to tell those that we feel love for in God's way that we love them. I think I'll follow that advice right now. Your posts are always so full of love for God, Robban, and this fills my heart with love for you. May God bless you always, and guide us all to all that pleases Him.

Well JJ,glad you see it that way, though it leaves me pretty speechless, so will just say the same applies to you, just more so.
Wa anta min ahlihi, Hope I got that right.

 

[JJWhite]

Well JJ,glad you see it that way, though it leaves me pretty speechless, so will just say the same applies to you, just more so.
Wa anta min ahlihi, Hope I got that right.

That'll work.

The 'traditional' response would be, 'Ahabbakillah alladhee ahbabtini feeh'

'May God, for whom you loved me, love you'

 

[razeontherock]

Ok back to the OP. I can't believe I didn't think of this myself, but I just saw this and Mike - this is CONCLUSIVE:

"That is what makes the story so great. After the son had severed his relationship with his father and spends all of his inheritance through a life of sin and excess he seeks to humble himself before his father when he realizes the errors of his ways. When the son returns hoping that he might be accepted as even the lowliest of servants, the father instead prepares a celebration for his return.

What this means is that if we reject Christ and return to a life of sin we can still return to Christ by full repentance of our sin and a re engagement of faithfully following Christ. I believe for the most part that God will pursue many of those who once had Christ in their life and will lead them back to faith."

Cut and paste from Chris81, re: the Parable of the Prodigal Son. Also mentioned is that when the Son asked for his inheritance, he was saying to his Father "I wish you were dead." Not mentioned is that a quick sale of all the family had would cause financial ruin, yet the Father never severed the relationship. Just amazing stuff!

 

[razeontherock]

please share the verse about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit being the only unforgivable sin? Our scriptures indicate that the only unforgivable sin is idolatry. That would be an interesting thing to compare.

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

What this means is attributing the work of G-d to satan. I really fear for the way people so readily talk evil about preachers; I see professing believers do this a lot.

The way the sin of idolatry applies in Christianity is SO far reaching, that if it were unforgivable I suppose there would be no hope for any of us. Lord have Mercy!

 

[JJWhite]

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

What this means is attributing the work of G-d to satan. I really fear for the way people so readily talk evil about preachers; I see professing believers do this a lot.

The way the sin of idolatry applies in Christianity is SO far reaching, that if it were unforgivable I suppose there would be no hope for any of us. Lord have Mercy!

Thanks, Ray.

Yeah... our scholars have classified acts of idolatry as major and minor, all wrong, but the major being much more serious, and is what many scholars believe is what is meant by that idolatry which is unforgivable.

Add to that that God forgives mistakes due to ignorance (unless perhaps it's the result of direct negligence) and honest mistakes and forgetfulness and such. God is the Most Merciful and Most Forgiving. I have full confidence that we are all in the best of Hands.

I was just posting a hadith on another site earlier today, in which the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, 'Beware of the hidden idolatry.. showing off.' So, yeah. I agree with you that it takes many forms.

 

[razeontherock]

Yeah, that hidden idolatry is something to really watch as a musician! This also gives insight into the whole Muslim reaction against Jesus' Divinity! I expect that would have to count under your major category ... makes much more sense now.

 

[DontTreadOnMike]

Ok back to the OP. I can't believe I didn't think of this myself, but I just saw this and Mike - this is CONCLUSIVE:

"That is what makes the story so great. After the son had severed his relationship with his father and spends all of his inheritance through a life of sin and excess he seeks to humble himself before his father when he realizes the errors of his ways. When the son returns hoping that he might be accepted as even the lowliest of servants, the father instead prepares a celebration for his return.

What this means is that if we reject Christ and return to a life of sin we can still return to Christ by full repentance of our sin and a re engagement of faithfully following Christ. I believe for the most part that God will pursue many of those who once had Christ in their life and will lead them back to faith."

Cut and paste from Chris81, re: the Parable of the Prodigal Son. Also mentioned is that when the Son asked for his inheritance, he was saying to his Father "I wish you were dead." Not mentioned is that a quick sale of all the family had would cause financial ruin, yet the Father never severed the relationship. Just amazing stuff!

Ok so it'a contradiction then and we're choosing to go with the verse that sounds more pleasant?

Seriously though, what does the verse I posted actually mean if it doesn't mean what it says? You haven't given it context at all you've just contradicted it with a different verse. The parable of the prodigal son doesn't shed any light on the original verse in question, it conflicts with it. At least that's the way it seems to me.

Any insight to this issue?

 

[razeontherock]

Re-stating the OP:

Hebrews 6:4-8
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."

What does it say about the view that once you're a Christian, it's impossible to fall away; and if you do fall away you were never a Christian? This verse seems to say otherwise. And obviously in addition to that it says it's impossible to come back to the faith once you've rejected it, so is there any point trying to evangelize to ex-Christians?

You'll see I didn't expound on the verses in question, because you asked other questions. Do you see that those questions were answered?

 

[AskTheFamily]

Ok so it'a contradiction then and we're choosing to go with the verse that sounds more pleasant?

It is a contradiction.

 

[razeontherock]

A Muslim thinks it's a contradiction, but he understands none of the basic concepts of Christianity.

 

[paul becke]

I believe it would depend on the fulness or partiality of the rejection, which would be affected by a number of factors. Bear in mind that intellectual assent to belief in Christ or God will not ultimately be the determining factor in relation to our salvation or damnation, as Jesus makes very clear in Matthew's gospel. Ultimately, the sincerity of our love for our needy fellow human beings, will be viewed by God as the measure of the sincerity of our love of him.

Also, it should be borne in mind that many seeming to reject God, are really rejecting the Church, which at times has been all too human in the negative sense. Jesus inveighed most bitterly against the Synagogue of his day, which had evidently reached a very low moral ebb, and his fellow-parishioners in his own local synagogue tried to throw him over a cliff, so I expect many people might have relinquished their faith, and confused it with a rejection of God; a kind of agnosticism.

With others it might be that their love of God never was much to hang onto - though I hardly think they would have antagonised powerful and malign worldlings and the ill-disposed, generally, in the way that Jesus did by his plain, outspoken, indeed rough-spoken manner. So their lot would not be enviable.