What does Baptism do? the Lord's Supper?

Both Baptism and the Lord's Supper are acts of obedience that have no salvic value

For Presbyterians (Reformed):

Baptism is not neccesary for salvation but is a sign of the new convenant of grace for adults and children. Jesus' body and blood are spiritually present to believers in the Lord's Supper.

For Orthodox:

Baptism initiaties God's life in the one baptized (usualyl infants) In the Eucharist, bread and wine are changed into Jesus' body and blood ( a Mystery to be left unexplained)

For Catholics:

Baptism removes original sin (usually in infants). In the Eucharist, the substances (but not the properties) of bread and win are changed into Jesus' body and blood (transubstantiation)

Personally:

Lord's supper is to eat and drink in remembrace of Him. Has symbolic value, not transubstantiation; as contrasted with the Eucharist. Sharing the gift with the giver need to amount to this effacious sense of cannibalism, as some may morbidly put it and then get refutted for their ignorance by various factions.... This is my body.. take the passage literally, but others not... =p

Seaioth said:

Both Baptism and the Lord's Supper are acts of obedience that have no salvic value

For Presbyterians (Reformed):

Baptism is not neccesary for salvation but is a sign of the new convenant of grace for adults and children. Jesus' body and blood are spiritually present to believers in the Lord's Supper.

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Believe the only two true sacraments through the new covenant.

Unlike:

Sacraments of the Catholic Church

The Seven Sacraments

• Baptism
  [*]Penance/Reconciliation
  [*]Eucharist
  [*]Confirmation
  [*]Matrimony
  [*]Holy Orders
  [*]Extremunction or Anointing of the Sick
  

Seaioth said:

Personally:

Lord's supper is to eat and drink in remembrace of Him. Has symbolic value, not transubstantiation; as contrasted with the Eucharist. Sharing the gift with the giver need to amount to this effacious sense of cannibalism, as some may morbidly put it and then get refutted for their ignorance by various factions.... This is my body.. take the passage literally, but others not... =p

Click to expand...

I agree.

I believe this is some excellent (light ) reading regarding the subject. Taken from here.


Question 161: How do the sacraments become effectual means of salvation?
Answer: The sacraments become effectual means of salvation, not by any power in themselves, or any virtue derived from the piety or intention of him by whom they are administered, but only by the working of the Holy Ghost, and the blessing of Christ, by whom they are instituted.

Question 162: What is a sacrament?
Answer: A sacrament is a holy ordinance instituted by Christ in his church, to signify, seal, and exhibit unto those that are within the covenant of grace, the benefits of his mediation; to strengthen and increase their faith, and all other graces; to oblige them to obedience; to testify and cherish their love and communion one with another; and to distinguish them from those that are without.

Question 163: What are the parts of a sacrament?
Answer: The parts of a sacrament are two; the one an outward and sensible sign, used according to Christ's own appointment; the other an inward and spiritual grace thereby signified.

Question 164: How many sacraments has Christ instituted in his church under the New Testament?
Answer: Under the New Testament Christ has instituted in his church only two sacraments, Baptism and the Lord's Supper.

Question 165: What is Baptism?
Answer: Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein Christ has ordained the washing with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, to be a sign and seal of ingrafting into himself, of remission of sins by his blood, and regeneration by his Spirit; of adoption, and resurrection unto everlasting life; and whereby the parties baptized are solemnly admitted into the visible church, and enter into an open and professed engagement to be wholly and only the Lord's.

Question 166: Unto whom is Baptism to be administered?
Answer: Baptism is not to be administered to any that are out of the visible church, and so strangers from the covenant of promise, till they profess their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, but infants descending from parents, either both, or but one of them, professing faith in Christ, and obedience to him, are in that respect within the covenant, and to be baptized.

Question 167: How is our Baptism to be improved by us?
Answer: The needful but much neglected duty of improving our Baptism, is to be performed by us all our life long, especially in the time of temptation, and when we are present at the administration of it to others; by serious and thankful consideration of the nature of it, and of the ends for which Christ instituted it, the privileges and benefits conferred and sealed thereby, and our solemn vow made therein; by being humbled for our sinful defilement, our falling short of, and walking contrary to, the grace of baptism, and our engagements; by growing up to assurance of pardon of sin, and of all other blessings sealed to us in that sacrament; by drawing strength from the death and resurrection of Christ, into whom we are baptized, for the mortifying of sin, and quickening of grace; and by endeavoring to live by faith, to have our conversation in holiness and righteousness, as those that have therein given up their names to Christ; and to walk in brotherly love, as being baptized by the same Spirit into one body.

Question 168: What is the Lord's Supper?
Answer: The Lord's Supper is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine according to the appointment of Jesus Christ, his death is showed forth; and they that worthily communicate feed upon his body and blood, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace; have their union and communion with him confirmed; testify and renew their thankfulness, and engagement to God, and their mutual love and fellowship each with other, as members of the same mystical body.

Question 169: How has Christ appointed bread and wine to be given and received in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper?
Answer: Christ has appointed the ministers of his Word, in the administration of this sacrament of the Lord's Supper, to set apart the bread and wine from common use, by the word of institution, thanksgiving, and prayer; to take and break the bread, and to give both the bread and the wine to the communicants: who are, by the same appointment, to take and eat the bread, and to drink the wine, in thankful remembrance that the body of Christ was broken and given, and his blood shed, for them.

Question 170: How do they that worthily communicate in the Lord's Supper feed upon the body and blood of Christ therein?
Answer: As the body and blood of Christ are not corporally or carnally present in, with, or under the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper, and yet are spiritually present to the faith of the receiver, no less truly and really than the elements themselves are to their outward senses; so they that worthily communicate in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, do therein feed upon the body and blood of Christ, not after a corporal and carnal, but in a spiritual manner; yet truly and really, while by faith they receive and apply unto themselves Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death.

Question 171: How are they that receive the sacrament of the Lord's Supper to prepare themselves before they come unto it?
Answer: They that receive the sacrament of the Lord's Supper are, before they come, to prepare themselves thereunto, by examining themselves of their being in Christ, of their sins and wants; of the truth and measure of their knowledge, faith, repentance; love to God and the brethren, charity to all men, forgiving those that have done them wrong; of their desires after Christ, and of their new obedience; and by renewing the exercise of these graces, by serious meditation, and fervent prayer.

Question 172: May one who doubts of his being in Christ, or of his due preparation, come to the Lord's Supper?
Answer: One who doubts of his being in Christ, or of his due preparation to the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, may have true interest in Christ, though he be not yet assured thereof; and in God's account has it, if he be duly affected with the apprehension of the want of it, and unfeignedly desires to be found in Christ, and to depart from iniquity: in which case (because promises are made, and this sacrament is appointed, for the relief even of weak and doubting Christians) he is to bewail his unbelief, and labor to have his doubts resolved; and, so doing, he may and ought to come to the Lord's Supper, that he may be further strengthened.

Question 173: May any who profess the faith, and desire to come to the Lord's Supper, be kept from it?
Answer: Such as are found to be ignorant or scandalous, notwithstanding their profession of the faith, and desire to come to the Lord's Supper, may and ought to be kept from that sacrament, by the power which Christ has left in his church, until they receive instruction, and manifest their reformation.

Question 174: What is required of them that receive the sacrament of the Lord's Supper in the time of the administration of it?
Answer: It is required of them that receive the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, that, during the time of the administration of it, with all holy reverence and attention they wait upon God in that ordinance, diligently observe the sacramental elements and actions, heedfully discern the Lord's body, and affectionately meditate on his death and sufferings, and thereby stir up themselves to a vigorous exercise of their graces; in judging themselves, and sorrowing for sin; in earnest hungering and thirsting after Christ, feeding on him by faith, receiving of his fulness, trusting in his merits, rejoicing in his love, giving thanks for his grace; in renewing of their covenant with God, and love to all the saints.

Question 175: What is the duty of Christians, after they have received the sacrament of the Lord's Supper?
Answer: The duty of Christians, after they have received the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, is seriously to consider: How they have behaved themselves therein, and with: What success; if they find quickening and comfort, to bless God for it, beg the continuance of it, watch against relapses, fulfil their vows, and encourage themselves to a frequent attendance on that ordinance: but if they find no present benefit, more exactly to review their preparation to, and carriage at, the sacrament; in both which, if they can approve themselves to God and their own consciences, they are to wait for the fruit of it in due time: but, if they see they have failed in either, they are to be humbled, and to attend upon it afterwards with more care and diligence.

Question 176: Wherein do the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper agree?
Answer: The sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper agree, in that the author of both is God; the spiritual part of both is Christ and his benefits; both are seals of the same covenant, are to be dispensed by ministers of the gospel, and by none other; and to be continued in the church of Christ until his second coming.

Question 177: Wherein do the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper differ?
Answer: The sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper differ, in that Baptism is to be administered but once, with water, to be a sign and seal of our regeneration and ingrafting into Christ, and that even to infants; whereas the Lord's Supper is to be administered often, in the elements of bread and wine, to represent and exhibit Christ as spiritual nourishment to the soul, and to confirm our continuance and growth in him, and that only to such as are of years and ability to examine themselves.

Seaioth said:

Both Baptism and the Lord's Supper are acts of obedience that have no salvic value

For Presbyterians (Reformed):

Baptism is not neccesary for salvation but is a sign of the new convenant of grace for adults and children. Jesus' body and blood are spiritually present to believers in the Lord's Supper.

Click to expand...

Now, after a brief hiatus in the land of no internet, I have a question regarding this. I thought that this view of communion was the view which Luther had, and that the view of Calvin was that it was more of a memorial, not any kind of presence? PLEASE, correct me if I am wrong and show me the error of my ways

shadrach_ said:

Now, after a brief hiatus in the land of no internet, I have a question regarding this. I thought that this view of communion was the view which Luther had, and that the view of Calvin was that it was more of a memorial, not any kind of presence? PLEASE, correct me if I am wrong and show me the error of my ways

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Calvin did not believe in the Roman Catholic view of transubstantiation.

Calvin did not believe that the Lord's Supper was just a memorial, either.

Calvin believed that there was the *Spiritual* (not physical) presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper. And I agree with Calvin that this is what the Bible teaches.

The bread and wine do not literally become the body and blood of Jesus. Nevertheless, there is His Spiritual presence there, and there is grace imparted.

For a more in-depth look at the spiritual presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper (the standard Reformed view), take a look at this article: http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sacraments/communion-partaking.htm

As the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10, when we eat the bread, we are actually "partaking" of Christ, and when we drink the wine, we are actually "partaking" of Christ. (Interestingly enough, earlier in 1 Corinthians 10, Paul says that the ancient Israelites also were partakers of Christ, when they drank the water supernaturally provided to them in the wilderness.)

I LOVE discussing the Lord's Supper. How gracious the Lord is for providing it to His church! I look forward to continued discussion on this topic.

Your brother in Christ,
Joseph

Found this after I posted:<in next post due to count>

Sorry, silly post count with posting links thing:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/eucharist.html

I posted some of Calvin's/Reformed ideas on the Lord's Supper here: Calvin and the Lord's Supper

I also posted some of Calvin's/Reformed ideas on bapism here:
Some of John Calvin's statements on baptism
Some Reformed Statements on Baptism:

Here is something I wrote:
Some thoughts on baptism and covenant

Many modern Reformed Churches are closer to Zwingli than they are to Calvin when it comes to the Sacraments. I wan to see them move back toward Calvin and (IMHO) a more biblical position.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

I think there can be some confusion on the non Baptist reformed view.(Reformed or Congregational - non-presence
Some Protestant groups see Communion (also called the Lord's Supper or the Lord's Table) as a symbolic meal, a memorial of the Last Supper and the Passion in which nothing miraculous occurs. This view is known as the Zwinglian view, after Huldrych Zwingli, a Swiss leader during the Reformation.
It is commonly associated with Baptists and the Disciples of Christ.
Many of the Reformed hold that Calvin actually held this view, and not the Spiritual feeding idea attributed to him by some; or that, the two views are after all the same.)

Catholics look at the wafer with a rather Aristotle philosophy dividing form and substance. (Transubstantiation )

Luther did not accept the change of substance but that Jesus came along side the elements.(consubstanciation)

My understanding of the reformation view is that Christ is present in a special way during the meal as he was at that last supper. Not in the bread or along side the bread but present to the believer in a way that is a mystery . The benefit is not found in the bread , but in the faith of the believer

The problem is that Catholics would say that the bread is Christ no matter who eats it.

We believe the standing of the man before God as saved or unsaved determines the benefit of the sacrament.

Following a phrase of Augustine, the Calvinist view is that "no one bears away from this Sacrament more than is gathered with the vessel of faith". "The flesh and blood of Christ are no less truly given to the unworthy than to God's elect believers", Calvin said;
but those who partake by faith receive benefit from Christ, and the unbelieving are condemned by partaking. By faith (not a mere mental apprehension), and in the Holy Spirit, the partaker beholds God incarnate, and in the same sense touches him with hands, so that by eating and drinking of bread and wine Christ's actual presence penetrates to the heart of the believer more nearly than food swallowed with the mouth can enter in.
The elements may be disposed of without ceremony; they are unchanged, and as such the meal directs attention toward Christ's bodily resurrection and return.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist#Reformed_or_Calvinist_-_spiritual_feeding

It is sign and sacrament to us

Communion: "The Lord's Supper is the sign and seal of eating and drinking in communion with the crucified and risen Lord. During his earthly ministry Jesus shared meals with his followers as a sign of community and acceptance and as an occasion for his own ministry."--Book of Order W-2.4001a