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Featured What Does Aionios Mean? (Part 3, Looking at the LXX)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Dec 12, 2017.

  1. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Also, consider Romans 2:7

    NIV Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal (aionios) life.

    "immortality" means never dying.
    God gives those who seek "immortality" eternal life.
    By the definition of aionios suggested by universalists, this verse indicates that people seek to NEVER die, but only says that God gives them life for a limited age. Not very encouraging!
     
  2. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This thread is mostly focused on the issue of the nature of final punishment (I believe in Conditional Immortality and I'm arguing against Universalism). More narrowly, I'm arguing that all the widely used English translations of the Bible are CORRECT when they translate aionios as "eternal".

    There is a broader implication of Universalist arguments that say all our widely used English translations are leading people astray. If that is true, then of course they should point it out. But if it is not true, there is a very serious, if perhaps unintended, negative side effect.

    Many millions of English speaking Christians read, meditate on, study, and try to live their lives based on the Bibles they own. I am convinced these Christians are right to do so. Knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is helpful, but most Christians don't have that specialized training. Praise God, we are blessed with many excellent translations. There is a risk that universalist arguments that these translations are all wrong and leading people astray will undermine confidence in the Bibles that so many Christians seek to live by. If the universalists are wrong on this issue, and I'm convinced they are wrong, their arguments could do damage that goes well beyond the narrow issue of the meaning of aionios and the nature of Hell.
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mark, that demonstrates your heart is in the right place.

    Yet, IMO, anyone who is slightly informed about Bible translations already realizes there are significant differences between them.

    They would also be aware that different churches (EO, RC, OO, Baptist, etc) have differing canons of the Scriptures & doctrines about many things.

    I am not ashamed of the truth, for Jesus said the truth shall make you free.

    Men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):

    Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

    Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
    9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD..."

    "After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

    Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

    "The Third Law of Theology: For every theologian there is an equal and opposite theologian."

    Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism:
    >Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  4. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    And how do you know you are not the one who is deceived.
    Everybody thinks it is someone else who is deceived. They themselves don't ever believe they could be deceived.
    For instance, JW's think they have a corner on the truth that nobody else has.
    And just because you and all the people you consider intelligent don't like the KJV makes it a bad translation.
    That is your opinion.
    When we get to Heaven, you will find out I am right. IMO

    I have never seen this quote before, but I like it.
    So, which one has the truth?
     
  5. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Which loudly proclaims the implication that if you disgree with the writer then you are not slightly informed about the Bible
    More ad hominems. If you don't agree with universalism then you are biased, following biased translations and are caught in deception.

    Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.
    Nothing but ad hominems. Anyone who disagrees with universlism is biased giving their theological opinions. Only those who agree with universalism give faithful translations.


    Out-of-context proof text which refers to ancient dishonest Jewish scribes who were then punished for their transgressions. Jer 8:17
    The implicaton is if you disagree with universalism you are not intelligent. Only universalists are intelligent.

    Circular argument.

    If a large number of important people believe something then it must be true.
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mark, please note that many other translations say "incorruptibility" rather than "immortality". In fact it has been said by a number of Greek scholars that the word here, APTHARSIA, does not mean "immortal", & there is another Greek word, ATHANASIA, conveying that idea. Also the same word is variously translated in the NT as "sincerity", "integrity", "purity", "sincerity", etc. Furthermore, Thayer gives "perpetuity" as one meaning. So, for your interpretation to be valid, you'ld need to prove that "immortality" is the only correct translation there.

    Second, Paul can be interpreted as contrasting those who get aionios life with those who get wrath on a certain "day", the "day of wrath" (Rom.2:5). Not 'the eternity of wrath'. Endless wrath is not mentioned in this context, but "indignation... ,tribulation and distress" (v.8-9). BTW, those who have ceased to exist forever, as in Conditionalism theory, would not be in "distress".

    Also as regards a "day of wrath" (2:5), we understand that a "day" of punishment is not an endless punishment, though in Scripture a day can be 1000 years to the Lord (2 Pet.3:8). And 1000 years is the length of the millennial age eon kingdom of the Lord. So why couldn't this passage be contrasting eonian destinies in the future millennium? The gift of eon-ian life [life in the millennial age eon] being to those who seek "glory, honor & purity" or incorruption (of soul & spirit, in this life).

    Concerning your comment "but only God gives them life for a limited age. Not very encouraging!", neither Paul, Scripture or Universalists use your word "only". Not that anyone deserves a future life of endless bliss, or even for 1000 or 25,000 years, but there are many other statements in Romans, in Paul's other writings & the NT as a whole in support of an endless life being the gift that Love Omnipotent shall grant to those who are His in this world, e.g. Romans 8:31-38. Ultimately, IMO, all shall obtain such a life:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

    Rom.8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
     
  7. Mark Corbett

    Mark Corbett Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Incorruptibility, especially in the context of our future destiny, may mean slightly more than immortality, but it certainly does not mean less. It may mean that not only will we not die, we will not even experience any "wearing out" or "decaying" which normally lead to death.

    Somehow, I'm not finding these alternate meanings. Here are all seven uses of this word in the NT:


    ESV Rom. 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

    BGT Rom. 2:7 τοῖς μὲν καθ᾽ ὑπομονὴν ἔργου ἀγαθοῦ δόξαν καὶ τιμὴν καὶ ἀφθαρσίαν ζητοῦσιν ζωὴν αἰώνιον,

    ESV 1 Cor. 15:42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable.

    BGT 1 Cor. 15:42 Οὕτως καὶ ἡ ἀνάστασις τῶν νεκρῶν. σπείρεται ἐν φθορᾷ, ἐγείρεται ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ·

    ESV 1 Cor. 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

    BGT 1 Cor. 15:50 Τοῦτο δέ φημι, ἀδελφοί, ὅτι σὰρξ καὶ αἷμα βασιλείαν θεοῦ κληρονομῆσαι οὐ δύναται οὐδὲ ἡ φθορὰ τὴν ἀφθαρσίαν κληρονομεῖ.

    ESV 1 Cor. 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

    BGT 1 Cor. 15:53 Δεῖ γὰρ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀφθαρσίαν καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν.

    ESV 1 Cor. 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

    BGT 1 Cor. 15:54 ὅταν δὲ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀφθαρσίαν καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσηται ἀθανασίαν, τότε γενήσεται ὁ λόγος ὁ γεγραμμένος· κατεπόθη ὁ θάνατος εἰς νῖκος.

    ESV Eph. 6:24 Grace be with all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with love incorruptible.

    BGT Eph. 6:24 ἡ χάρις μετὰ πάντων τῶν ἀγαπώντων τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἐν ἀφθαρσίᾳ.

    ESV 2 Tim. 1:10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

    BGT 2 Tim. 1:10 φανερωθεῖσαν δὲ νῦν διὰ τῆς ἐπιφανείας τοῦ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ, καταργήσαντος μὲν τὸν θάνατον φωτίσαντος δὲ ζωὴν καὶ ἀφθαρσίαν διὰ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου


    One of the basic meanings of "perpetuity" is lasting forever!!!
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to Thayer's lexicon:

    "...to love one with never diminishing love, Ephesians 6:24 (cf. Meyer at the passage The word seems to have the meaning purity, sincerity, incorruptness in Titus 2:7 Rec.st)."



    Various renderings are given here:

    Titus 2:7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness

    and for Eph.6:24 there is:

    Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.

    Ephesians 6:24 Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love.
     
  9. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Here is the definition of aftharsia and afthartos from BDAG.
    ἀφθαρ-σία, ἡ, incorruptibility, immortality (‘higher Koine’ [ Nägeli 41, 1; 31]: Epicurus 60, 3 [PLinde, Epicuri Vocab. ’06, 43]; Chrysipp. ; Strabo ; Plut. , Aristid. 6, 3, Mor. 881 B al .; Herm. Wr. 12, 14; Wsd 2:23 ; 6:19 ; 4 Macc 9:22 ; 17:12 ; Philo , Aet. M. 27 aj. t. kovsmou ; Gosp. fgm. POxy. 1081, 14 ff [ Kl. T. 8 3 p. 25, 17 and 20]) 1 Cor 15:42 , 50 , 53 f ; IPol 2:3. As a quality of the future life ( w. zwhv ) 2 Ti 1:10 ; 2 Cl 14:5; ( w. dovxa, timhv) aj. zntei`n Ro 2:7 ; aj. prosdevcesqai Dg 6:8; pnei`n ajfqarsivan IEph 17:1; metalambavnein aj. 2 Cl 14:5; ajrchgo;" th`" aj. (of Christ) 20:5; ajgw;n th`" aj. 7:5; ajpavrtisma aj. the consummation of immortality (of the gosp.) IPhld 9:2; didach; aj. teaching that assures immort. IMg 6:2; oJ th`" aj. stevfano" the crown which is immortality MPol 17:1; 19:2; ejn aj. pneuvmato" aJgivou 14:2.—The mng. of aj. in Eph 6:24 is no different; it refers either to those who love the Lord, and as such are now partakers of the future life, or to the Lord himself, who reigns in immortal glory. Its presence in Tit 2:7 t.r. is prob. due to a misunderstanding of the rare word ajfqoriva. M-M .*

    ἄφθαρ-τος, ον, imperishable, incorruptible, immortal (‘higher Koine’ [ Nägeli 41, 1; 31]: Philochorus [IV/III BC ] no. 328 fgm. 188b Jac. ; Aristot. ; Epicurus ; Diod. S. ; Dionys. Hal. ; Cornutus 1 p. 2, 8; Lucian ; Philostrat. , Dial. p. 259, 7 K.; Sallust. p. 12, 24; 30, 7; CIG 4240d; Dit., Or. 569, 24; PGM 4, 497; 519; 13, 912; Gosp. fgm. POxy. 1081, 19 [KL. T. 8 3 p. 25]; Wsd 12:1 ; 18:4 ) of God ( Diod. S. 6, 2, 2 of gods: aji?dioi and a[fqartoi ; Zoroaster in Philo of Bybl. [Euseb., Pr. Ev. 1, 10, 52]; Antipater of Tarsus [150 BC ] in Plut. , Stoicor. Repugn. 38 p. 1105 F ; Herm. Wr. 11, 3; PGM 4, 559 qeou` zw`nto" ajfqavrtou ; Sib. Or. , fgm. 3, 17; Philo , Sacr. Abel. 95, Mos. 2, 171; Jos. , Ant. 3, 88; 10, 278) Ro 1:23 ; 1 Ti 1:17 ; PK 2; of Christ Dg 9:2. Of the resurrected body 1 Cor 15:52 . naov" B 16:9. stevfano" 1 Cor 9:25 ; klhronomiva 1 Pt 1:4 ; sporav vs. 2 3; short ending of Mk; ajgavph a[. an imperishable love-feast IRo 7:3; ajgw;n a[. 2 Cl 7:3; ajgaqa; a[. ( Philo , Deus Imm. 151) 6:6; karpo;" a[. ITr 11:2; futav ( Philo , Sacr. Abel. 97) AP 15.— Subst. to; a[. ( Dit., Syll. 3 798, 10 [37 AD ]) B 19:8; ejn tw`/ aj. tou` praevw" pneuvmato" w. the imperishable quality of a gentle spirit ( s. pneu`ma 3c) 1 Pt 3:4 . M-M. *

    A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your link is not to BDAG.

    Here the reference is to the person's spirit, not the body or its "immortality", as Mark's translation said re Rom.2:7. Is that "eternal" if a person loses his salvation? Compare the one called "brother" in 1 Cor.5 who was in need of judgement in order that his "spirit" may be saved.

    Here are some translations of 1 Pet.3:4:

    NET Bible
    but the inner person of the heart, the lasting beauty of a gentle and tranquil spirit, which is precious in God's sight.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    But be adorned in the secret person of the heart and in a humble spirit which is uncorrupted, an excellent ornament before God.

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    but let the interior adorning of the heart be without corruption, and of an agreeable spirit and peaceful, which is precious in the sight of God.

    Now compare:

    Rom.2:7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:

    People in this life are to seek to be incorrupt in their soul & spirit. And find it by the grace of God & the blood of Christ.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to your own theology many things are unseen, yet not eternal, e.g. Satan, demons, etc.

    Satan's kingdom is unseen, yet not eternal. Compare this quote by Early Church Father Chrysostom:

    "For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3).

    CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

    The Greek text is here:

    https://ia801309.us.archive.org/27/...4/chrysostom_pauline_homilies_field_vol_4.pdf

    Compare also the very next verse of the context:

    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eonian [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens. (2 Cor.5:1)

    First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

    Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal.

    Furthermore, Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

    in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)

    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)

    Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)

    but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

    If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

    Also the eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & may also have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26). If so, then arguably what is eonian also must end. Here in post #'s 130 & 131 are 12 arguments that the phrase "ages of the ages" is finite in Scripture, including some re all ages (eons) ending:

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  12. Doug Melven

    Doug Melven Well-Known Member

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    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eonian [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens. (2 Cor.5:1)Do you not know that these two Heavens are not the same?
    The heavens that will be dissolved is the sky above us.
    The Heavens that are eternal is where God's Throne is at, where we are seated according to Ephesians 2, where we are to lay up treasures because there is no corruption in that Heaven.

    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Definition:
    From G165; perpetual (also used of past time or past and future as well): - eternal for ever everlasting world (began).

    Are you saying God is not eternal?
    1 Timothy 1:17
    Now unto the King aionios, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your assumptions are not supported by any Scriptures.

    Wrong word. And 165/aion means literally "age", not "perpetual". The rest of your quote is man's deceptive translation.

    God is both endless (Psa.102:27) & of the eons i.e. ages.
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "everlasting shame" that ends:

    I'd suggest the LXX translatiors, traditionally considered to be 70 Hebrew scholars, did not err in translating the word, but had something else in mind, such as what the following commentators of Isa.54:4 refer to, which justifies the translation of "youth" as "aionion"(eonian, ancient), in speaking of the shame of Israel's youth, i.e. Israel's "former" "ancient" aionion/eonian history, as per the LXX translations below:

    4 Be not terrified because thou hast been exposed to shame; nor blush because thou hast been reproached. For thou shalt forget the shame of ancient times, and the reproach of thy widowhood (Charles Thompson Translation, LXX), Isaiah 54 rejoice thou barren, who bearest not; break forth with shouts of joy, thou who sufferest not the pangs of child birth; for many more are the children of the desolate than of her who hath a husband. For the Lord said,

    4 Fear not, because thou has been put to shame, neither be confounded, because thou was reproached: for thou shalt forget thy former shame, and shalt no more at all remember the reproach of thy widowhood. (Brenton, LXX)

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX), Isaiah 54 Be glad! O sterile, the one not giving birth. Break forth and yell! O one not travailing. For many are the children of the barren, rather than the one having the husband. For thus spoke the lord .

    "Thou shalt forget.—The “shame of thy youth,” was the Egyptian bondage, from which Jehovah chose Israel to be His bride (Jeremiah 3:1-11; Ezekiel 16:1-14). The “reproach of widowhood” was the captivity in Babylon. [Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers]

    "For thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth - In the abundant increase and glory of future times, the circumstances of shame which attended their early history shall be forgotten. The 'youth' of the Jewish people refers doubtless to the bondage of Egypt, and the trials and calamities which came upon them there. [Barnes' Notes on the Bible]

    "shame of thy youth—Israel's unfaithfulness as wife of Jehovah, almost from her earliest history. [Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary]

    "Since the conception has some affinities with the striking allegory in Ezekiel 16 it is probable that the reference goes back to the origin of the nation (cf. Ezekiel 16:4-8); the reference being to the Egyptian oppression. [Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges]

    "Verse 4. - Thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth; rather, of thy maidenhood; i.e. of the time when thou wert a maiden, before by the covenant of Sinai Jeho[va]h became thy Husband (ver. 5). The "shame" of this period was 'the Egyptian bondage. Israel's later condition would be such that the very recollection of this bondage would fade away and cease. [Pulpit Commentary]

    Isaiah 54:4 Commentaries: "Fear not, for you will not be put to shame; And do not feel humiliated, for you will not be disgraced; But you will forget the shame of your youth, And the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.

    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame eonian" in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - αἰσχύνη - shamefacedness (n.)

    Strong's Greek: 152. αἰσχύνη (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

    In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting[eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.
     
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