What does a Christian do if?

[Giver]

After being baptized with the Holy Spirit, and then comes to know Jesus voice, is told, by Jesus (Holy Spirit): not to kill for any reason, not to store up for their future, not to call any man father, that they can’t be a disciple of Jesus unless they give up all their possessions, and that a Christian is dead to sin?

What if what the Holy Spirit tells you are the Words of God, the Bible, and what the Church tells you doesn’t agree with the Word of God?

I first introduced this thread in the Catholic section, but found it wasn’t the proper part of this forum to discuss this subject. I thought it was a situation that many Catholics found stressful, but then I thought all Christians might have to struggle with this question. I was a Catholic and had to personally struggle with those very same questions.

 

[LifeInChrist]

After being baptized with the Holy Spirit, and then comes to know Jesus voice, is told, by Jesus (Holy Spirit): not to kill for any reason, not to store up for their future, not to call any man father, that they can’t be a disciple of Jesus unless they give up all their possessions, and that a Christian is dead to sin?
The above points can be obtained even without being Baptized with the Holy Spirit. One does not need a special mysterious voice to tell them. Every sincere Bible-student knows them as they can be very easily found in the Bible.

Exodus 20:13 - Thou shalt not kill.

Matthew 6:19 - Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

Matthew 23:9 - And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Luke 14:33 - So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Romans 6:2 - God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

What if what the Holy Spirit tells you are the Words of God, the Bible, and what the Church tells you doesn’t agree with the Word of God?
Different Churches interpret the Bible in different ways and therefore have different doctrines but they all do come under one banner i.e Christianity. This does not mean that what the Church tells you does not agree with the Bible. If one takes a literal interpretation of the Bible he understands the Bible verses in a different way than another who takes the spiritual meaning. It takes a few years to properly understand the Bible in a spiritual way. There are matured Christians who have the experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and who have in-depth understanding of the Bible coupled with their practical experience in life. So, they speak in a practical way which may appear to disagree with the word of God especially for those who are new to the Bible or for those who have not yet grasped the meaning or the context in which the Preacher spoke.

I first introduced this thread in the Catholic section, but found it wasn’t the proper part of this forum to discuss this subject. I thought it was a situation that many Catholics found stressful, but then I thought all Christians might have to struggle with this question. I was a Catholic and had to personally struggle with those very same questions.
I hope a few of your questions are answered now.

 

[JPPT1974]

Thanks for putting those up there!
Really makes you think!

 

[Giver]

After being baptized with the Holy Spirit, and then comes to know Jesus voice, is told, by Jesus (Holy Spirit): not to kill for any reason, not to store up for their future, not to call any man father, that they can’t be a disciple of Jesus unless they give up all their possessions, and that a Christian is dead to sin?
The above points can be obtained even without being Baptized with the Holy Spirit. One does not need a special mysterious voice to tell them. Every sincere Bible-student knows them as they can be very easily found in the Bible.

Exodus 20:13 - Thou shalt not kill.

Matthew 6:19 - Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

Matthew 23:9 - And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Luke 14:33 - So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Romans 6:2 - God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

What if what the Holy Spirit tells you are the Words of God, the Bible, and what the Church tells you doesn’t agree with the Word of God?
Different Churches interpret the Bible in different ways and therefore have different doctrines but they all do come under one banner i.e Christianity. This does not mean that what the Church tells you does not agree with the Bible. If one takes a literal interpretation of the Bible he understands the Bible verses in a different way than another who takes the spiritual meaning. It takes a few years to properly understand the Bible in a spiritual way. There are matured Christians who have the experience of being baptized in the Holy Spirit and who have in-depth understanding of the Bible coupled with their practical experience in life. So, they speak in a practical way which may appear to disagree with the word of God especially for those who are new to the Bible or for those who have not yet grasped the meaning or the context in which the Preacher spoke.

I first introduced this thread in the Catholic section, but found it wasn’t the proper part of this forum to discuss this subject. I thought it was a situation that many Catholics found stressful, but then I thought all Christians might have to struggle with this question. I was a Catholic and had to personally struggle with those very same questions.
I hope a few of your questions are answered now.

The Holy Spirit has only one interpretation of them. Granted we may differ in our understanding of the Holy Spirit, but given time we should all come to be of one mind and one spirit.

The struggle that a person has, after being taught by God isn’t what is the truth, but how does he or she stay submitted to a church that isn’t teaching the truth?

 

[Adammi]

I think that there is only one interpretation to things, but those interpretations are very loose and God benefits different people by having different people hold differen interpretations.

 

[TheAJKMan]

The struggle that a person has, after being taught by God isn’t what is the truth, but how does he or she stay submitted to a church that isn’t teaching the truth?

The fact of the matter is that the person/s in that type of situation should be listening to the HS and following his prompthing. If it is to stay, then the love for GOd should be enough reason for the person to stay and "submit."

TheAJKMan

 

[Gracy]

why don't you just then convert to non catholic christian?

 

[capnator]

After being baptized with the Holy Spirit, and then comes to know Jesus voice, is told, by Jesus (Holy Spirit): not to kill for any reason, not to store up for their future, not to call any man father, that they can’t be a disciple of Jesus unless they give up all their possessions, and that a Christian is dead to sin?

What if what the Holy Spirit tells you are the Words of God, the Bible, and what the Church tells you doesn’t agree with the Word of God?

I first introduced this thread in the Catholic section, but found it wasn’t the proper part of this forum to discuss this subject. I thought it was a situation that many Catholics found stressful, but then I thought all Christians might have to struggle with this question. I was a Catholic and had to personally struggle with those very same questions.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

That's what Jesus says to those who follow the church rather than God's word and his spirit.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

Good responses, so far.

As far as giving up all of one's possessions, I do think that the word forsake ('he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple'), does not necessarily mean to give away all of one's possessions. It means that you would be willing to do so if it came down to a choice of keeping hold of your possessions versus following God's leading (wherever or however he may lead you). It's a matter of loving God more than we love anyone or anything else.

 

[jgnat]

LifeinChrist, those are good scriptures, but I fear you quote them out of context. To follow them blindly would be just as blind. For example,

"is told, by Jesus (Holy Spirit): not to kill for any reason"

(But God did allow in the OT for relatives to avenge the death of one of their own)

"not to store up for their future, that they can’t be a disciple of Jesus unless they give up all their possessions"

(Consider the scriptures also in Proverbs on the sluggard and the ant. There were wealthy believers in the Gospels and Acts who did much good for the congregations. They supported the missionaires on their travels, and hosted dinners so that the townspeople could hear their message. I don't believe new believers all took the vow of poverty. But they did invest their whole lives in their new faith.)

"not to call any man father"

(Now, really, was that meant to be taken literally?)

Congregation life, I believe, helps us overcome our own extremes. As iron sharpens iron and all that, living stones, all built together. I say, keep asking, keep questioning. If the congregation you are in cannot provide adequate answers to your questions, or tells you to submit until all becomes clear, perhaps the Holy Spirit is guiding you to another congregation.

 

[LifeInChrist]

LifeinChrist, those are good scriptures, but I fear you quote them out of context. To follow them blindly would be just as blind. For example,


(But God did allow in the OT for relatives to avenge the death of one of their own)

(Consider the scriptures also in Proverbs on the sluggard and the ant. There were wealthy believers in the Gospels and Acts who did much good for the congregations. They supported the missionaires on their travels, and hosted dinners so that the townspeople could hear their message. I don't believe new believers all took the vow of poverty. But they did invest their whole lives in their new faith.)

(Now, really, was that meant to be taken literally?)

Congregation life, I believe, helps us overcome our own extremes. As iron sharpens iron and all that, living stones, all built together. I say, keep asking, keep questioning. If the congregation you are in cannot provide adequate answers to your questions, or tells you to submit until all becomes clear, perhaps the Holy Spirit is guiding you to another congregation.

You need to understand my intention of posting the Bible verses. This was only to show that there are Bible verses for each of the points that the poster has received as a special voice of HolySpirit or Jesus in his mind. And it is an entirely false notion that those who are not baptized in the Holy Spirit do not know those points or that only those baptized in the Holy Spirit receive a special voice which has given them the above points. My intention was to make this point clear.

And this is the reason why i have not given my personal explanation for each of the Bible verses that i posted in my earlier reply.

I agree that we should not take the literal meaning of the Bible verses and instead take the spiritual meaning. Each Bible verse which i have posted in my earlier reply could lead to an entirely separate Topic of Discussion. Therefore, i do not prefer to discuss them here unless someone wants to discuss them in detail.

I agree with your opinion that "Congregation life, I believe, helps us overcome our own extremes. As iron sharpens iron and all that, living stones, all built together. I say, keep asking, keep questioning. If the congregation you are in cannot provide adequate answers to your questions, or tells you to submit until all becomes clear, perhaps the Holy Spirit is guiding you to another congregation".

Hope you got my point. Thank you raising the questions that came to your mind regarding my earlier reply.

Lord bless you.

 

[LifeInChrist]

Good responses, so far.

As far as giving up all of one's possessions, I do think that the word forsake ('he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple'), does not necessarily mean to give away all of one's possessions. It means that you would be willing to do so if it came down to a choice of keeping hold of your possessions versus following God's leading (wherever or however he may lead you). It's a matter of loving God more than we love anyone or anything else.

Excellent reply regarding the point "giving up all of one's possessions". I couldn't have said better.

Lord bless you.

 

[LifeInChrist]

LifeinChrist, those are good scriptures, but I fear you quote them out of context. To follow them blindly would be just as blind. For example,


(But God did allow in the OT for relatives to avenge the death of one of their own)

We are really not supposed to take revenge or avenge ourselves according to the Bible verses below -

Leviticus 19:18 - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Matthew 5:9 - Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Romans 12:18 - If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Romans 14:19 - Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Maybe it was allowed in the Old Testament because there were many who were not filled with the Divine Spirit of God and people had to subdue or terrorize their enemies by killing them. The Spiritual standard of the majority was obviously low in the Old Testament days. They had a few Spiritual Truths and some Moral Truths which came through Moses in the form of the Ten Commandments. They followed Laws of their Leaders and the Words of their Prophets and which became the Old Testament today. This was Judaism and the followers were called Jews. There is some benefit in reading them.

After Jesus Christ came, he brought in a lot more Divine Truths which surpassed the standard of the Old Testament. Especially truths like "Love your enemies", "Overcome evil with good", "Love is the fulfilling of the Law" etc. The Disciples of Jesus Christ also followed and expounded his Teachings. Therefore, we need to understand the Old Testament in the light (or in the Spiritual understanding) of the New Testament. Jesus read and understood the Old Testament with a higher level of spiritual understanding. He took the good points of the Old Testament and followed them.

As Christians we ought to follow the New Testament and take all the good verses that are existing in the Old Testament that are profitable for our Spiritual Development and/or Edification.

Lord bless you.

 

[Snow Angel]

I agree with all of you: Amen:

 

[Giver]

I think my thread would have explained my perceptive better if it had been written like one of my post.

There seem to be much controversy about what is the true church, Bible, etc. I have a suggestion: each and every one of us should go to Jesus/Holy Spirit, Bible in our hands (any of the Christian Bibles).

Jesus said his people would hear his voice, and his Holy Spirit would teach us. Most of us would have to lay down a lifetime of teachings that were not directly from Jesus, so he could start with a fresh slate.

I would say that most people would be surprised at how far away from the Word of God, the Christian Church is.

 

[karen freeinchristman]

I think my thread would have explained my perceptive better if it had been written like one of my post.

There seem to be much controversy about what is the true church, Bible, etc. I have a suggestion: each and every one of us should go to Jesus/Holy Spirit, Bible in our hands (any of the Christian Bibles).

Jesus said his people would hear his voice, and his Holy Spirit would teach us. Most of us would have to lay down a lifetime of teachings that were not directly from Jesus, so he could start with a fresh slate.

I would say that most people would be surprised at how far away from the Word of God, the Christian Church is.

I think I know what you mean, but we can't completely disregard 2000 years of tradition, either. In order for us to 'do theology' today (by that I really mean 'do mission' and 'do Christianity' and come to know God's will for us today) it is good to look at what has gone before and hold that up to what is going on today. There have been a lot of mistakes, and mistakes are a great thing to learn from! There has also been a lot of wisdom that we must recognise and allow it to be used today in our own ways, in order to live up to God's purposes.

 

[Giver]

I think I know what you mean, but we can't completely disregard 2000 years of tradition, either. In order for us to 'do theology' today (by that I really mean 'do mission' and 'do Christianity' and come to know God's will for us today) it is good to look at what has gone before and hold that up to what is going on today. There have been a lot of mistakes, and mistakes are a great thing to learn from! There has also been a lot of wisdom that we must recognise and allow it to be used today in our own ways, in order to live up to God's purposes.

There is a need for a revolution in the Christian Church. We need to throw out all the teachings of the past. The teachings and traditions have created so much confusion. Everyone needs to get back to the Word of God, and stop believing anyone but Jesus/Holy Spirit.

We all are responsible for our own salvation. I for one will not trust my soul to anyone but God, and only trust his teachings.

Jesus chose the first apostles and after they were baptized with the Holy Spirit walked in the powers of an apostle. A Christian bishop/apostle still should walk if those gifts. How else can we be sure they are apostles? Just because someone says a person is an apostle doesn’t make him one.

 

[JPPT1974]

We are to be peacemakers
And to love our brothers and sisters
In Christ despite differences!

 

[Jaison]

Invite Jesus Christ to lead your life. He will send you the helper Holy Spirit. For it is written in the Bible John 15;25 and John 16:7 to 15. Holy Spirit will reveal you everything. Act accordiongly, thats the best advise I could give you. I once met with a similar problem like that of you, I quit the movemement because of the wrong teachings and practices that I found not according to our Bible teachings. Holy Spirit let me know the truth till then my eyes were made blind.