What doctrines are non-negotiable?

[ZaidaBoBaida]

I usually use the Apostle's Creed as my non-negotiable standard. Beyond it, I really do tend to look at people who don't believe in the trinity as not quite Christian.

 

[Rev Randy]

Oh, lol


gotcha


Being nice he says

you soooo lie

Naw. Not lying just already involved in that conversation on too many other threads. I think one more would make me like a sabbatarian with Saturday.

 

[Albion]

The early creeds are so vague though. Born of the virgin for example. Okay, we all agree she was a virgin prior to conception and gave birth. After? Folks disagree. There's only one group (RC), however, that made it an essential doctrine to their salvation. So, really don't think the creeds did anything more than separate brothers.

But that's the question. What makes us brothers? What is essential?

Born again? Okay. By water or Spirit or what?

Love? Okay, lots of religions try that.

Saved by grace through faith. Does any other religion teach "no works" to get and stay "saved" besides Christianity?

At bottom, I can't decide what I think about this thread. I'm inclined to go with you and others who think the essentials are really quite few, mainly dealing with salvation; but it's so hard to decide what might be added to that (short) list beyond this one biggie. So I'm feeling kinda stumped, to tell the truth.

 

[Rev Randy]

At bottom, I can't decide what I think about this thread. I'm inclined to go with you and others who think the essentials are really quite few, mainly dealing with salvation; but it's so hard to decide what might be added to that (short) list beyond this one biggie. So I'm feeling kinda stumped, to tell the truth.

That's what I also feel so I simply said dogmas, meaning, dogmas of your Church.
The Creeds give a lot of leeway for interfaith discussion. Our Dogmas ,however are what we really believe in finer detail. What we must agree upon is one thing. What I must believe to be in communion is another.

 

[Albion]

That's what I also feel so I simply said dogmas, meaning, dogmas of your Church.
The Creeds give a lot of leeway for interfaith discussion. Our Dogmas ,however are what we really believe in finer detail. What we must agree upon is one thing. What I must believe to be in communion is another.

That sounds to me like a concession to your church, i.e., if the church has made X into dogma, you'll be obedient. But ARE all those dogmas necessary...if we were to step out of our position as loyal communicants and members and answer the question candidly? Do you, for instance, really think any of the Marian doctrines are essential? And why would they be?

 

[Standing Up]

That's what I also feel so I simply said dogmas, meaning, dogmas of your Church.
The Creeds give a lot of leeway for interfaith discussion. Our Dogmas ,however are what we really believe in finer detail. What we must agree upon is one thing. What I must believe to be in communion is another.

Does EO really have clear dogmas that must be believed to be saved? Like what?

 

[Scott4Him]

I have a lot of reading to catch up with on this thread.

 

[Rev Randy]

Does EO really have clear dogmas that must be believed to be saved? Like what?

To be saved or to be in Communion?

 

[Albion]

To be saved or to be in Communion?

We all know that there are membership requirements if one wants to belong to any denomination, and we don't consider all of them to be theologically essential. So no, that's not part of the issue.

 

[Rev Randy]

That sounds to me like a concession to your church, i.e., if the church has made X into dogma, you'll be obedient. But ARE all those dogmas necessary...if we were to step out of our position as loyal communicants and members and answer the question candidly? Do you, for instance, really think any of the Marian doctrines are essential? And why would they be?

I don't agree with "concession". Submission to truth is my view. For me, it's not about "my" Church. It's about Christ's Church. I don't think I'm so much different than most believers who believe they are in the Church. I don't think (except for purposes of writing at a forum) in terms of your Church or my Church. I just see what's been shown to me as the Church through the holy Spirit. Or: Where I found the Church.
I was a Baptist before I found where I was meant to be. I did not find the Church there. That doesn't mean it wasn't there. It means simply that I did not find it there.
No, I'm not suggesting that one needs to make concessions. If something goes against your conscience, one should not submit to it or even be a part of it. Now if a conscience feels fine with the Dispensational evangelical views, by all means one could submit.

On Marian doctrine, if looking at it from outside my communion, I do not know. My hope for others is that it doesn't matter. I hope that those things we be ignorant about will not be held against us. I'm not really sure if being taught wrong will be held against the hearer or the teacher appointed of God to teach the truth.
My advice is simple. I'll quote my departed Grandmother: "If you're gonna be a Baptist, be a good Baptist. If you're gonna be a Catholic, be a good Catholic. God looks into the heart."

 

[Albion]

I don't agree with "concession". Submission to truth is my view.

OK. I wasn't trying to make anything special out of that choice of wording.

For me, it's not about "my" Church. It's about Christ's Church. I don't think I'm so much different than most believers who believe they are in the Church. I don't think (except for purposes of writing at a forum) in terms of your Church or my Church. I just see what's been shown to me as the Church through the holy Spirit. Or: Where I found the Church.
I was a Baptist before I found where I was meant to be. I did not find the Church there. That doesn't mean it wasn't there. It means simply that I did not find it there.
No, I'm not suggesting that one needs to make concessions. If something goes against your conscience, one should not submit to it or even be a part of it. Now if a conscience feels fine with the Dispensational evangelical views, by all means one could submit.

On Marian doctrine, if looking at it from outside my communion, I do not know. My hope for others is that it doesn't matter. I hope that those things we be ignorant about will not be held against us. I'm not really sure if being taught wrong will be held against the hearer or the teacher appointed of God to teach the truth.
My advice is simple. I'll quote my departed Grandmother: "If you're gonna be a Baptist, be a good Baptist. If you're gonna be a Catholic, be a good Catholic. God looks into the heart."

Then, shall we put you down as unwilling to contemplate the idea that some beliefs that your church has dogmatized may not be essential doctrines, quite apart from the question of whether or not they are true?

 

[Rev Randy]

We all know that there are membership requirements if one wants to belong to any denomination, and we don't consider all of them to be theologically essential. So no, that's not part of the issue.

It's not a club. One either faces God in or out of communion with Christ's Church. One faces God being rebellious or agreeing.
More simply said:
Baptised or not
Partaking of His Body and Blood or not.

Salvation is not a ticket. It's given and must be worked out by every believer. If it's voided because we err on perfect understanding, we are all in deep doo doo.
So no. The Orthodox do not teach you go to hell if......... If one finds himself there, we believe it's because they hate God.
hope this answers the other post above.

 

[Rev Randy]

OK. I wasn't trying to make anything special out of that choice of wording.



Then, shall we put you down as unwilling to contemplate the idea that some beliefs that your church has dogmatized may not be essential doctrines, quite apart from the question of whether or not they are true?

I'm really not trying to be difficult. It's a cultural difference.
I know you're saying essential to salvation.
I believe our infants receive it so that should answer that question. No I do not think understanding is essential to salvation. I think it's important for living on earth, worship, teaching and peace of mind.
Before I'll agree on the one great essential I'd need to know why different answers were given in scripture when different people asked: "What must I do to be saved, inherit eternal life, to enter into the kingdom and so on.
One is told that he must be born again. One is told he must believe and be baptized. Another is told he must believe upon the Lord jesus Christ. Yet another is told to sell all he owns and follow Christ.
So I'm not sure if there is one great essential aside from love. Salvation is the lord's to give as He sees fit. Our lists do not hinder Him.
A better question is what must I do. Not we.

 

[Albion]

I'm really not trying to be difficult. It's a cultural difference.
I know you're saying essential to salvation.
I believe our infants receive it so that should answer that question. No I do not think understanding is essential to salvation. I think it's important for living on earth, worship, teaching and peace of mind.
Before I'll agree on the one great essential I'd need to know why different answers were given in scripture when different people asked: "What must I do to be saved, inherit eternal life, to enter into the kingdom and so on.
One is told that he must be born again. One is told he must believe and be baptized. Another is told he must believe upon the Lord jesus Christ. Yet another is told to sell all he owns and follow Christ.
So I'm not sure if there is one great essential aside from love. Salvation is the lord's to give as He sees fit. Our lists do not hinder Him.
A better question is what must I do. Not we.

I don't think it is, at bottom, a cultural difference. I also notice that you've seemingly moved from affirming, as a matter of course, whatever your church teaches dogmatically to a personal assessment in which you come across as simply unsure of how to know what's essential and what's not. If so, that's an answer I can appreciate.

 

[sunlover1]

I have a lot of reading to catch up with on this thread.

They can really get away from you lol!

 

[endtimewarrior]

I would say two doctrines that are non negotiable to me have to do with the sacraments.

1. The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist: Christ said "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you". I take this to be literal.

2. The other is baptism. I believe that this sacrament imparts salvation. It is not simply a symbol.

 

[Albion]

I would say two doctrines that are non negotiable to me have to do with the sacraments.

1. The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist: Christ said "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you". I take this to be literal.

2. The other is baptism. I believe that this sacrament imparts salvation. It is not simply a symbol.

Those seem like odd choices to me--not that we are commanded to do them, but making a particular interpretation of them essential to salvation.

 

[Rev Randy]

I don't think it is, at bottom, a cultural difference. I also notice that you've seemingly moved from affirming, as a matter of course, whatever your church teaches dogmatically to a personal assessment in which you come across as simply unsure of how to know what's essential and what's not. If so, that's an answer I can appreciate.

I believe the Dogmas to be essential. Now essential for what? Salvation? For whom? For agreement in Communion? Yes. For unity.
I think I understand your point as being why are some Dogmas even Dogmas and not just a theory. With some I've heard, I do not know.
Yes an "I don't know" answer is often the only truthful answer to give. I don't know who's are headed to heaven or hell because of their doctrines.
Now this is how it's stated in Orthowiki:
"The Church is unwavering in upholding its dogmatic teachings, but does not insist upon those matters of faith which have not been specifically defined. The Orthodox believe that there must always be room for mystery when speaking of God. Individuals are permitted to hold theologoumena (private theological opinions) so long as they do not contradict traditional Orthodox teaching. Sometimes, various Holy Fathers may have contradictory opinions about a certain question, and where no consensus exists, the individual is free to follow his or her conscience."

Now here's what I mean by a cultural difference: Salvation, is seen by the Orthodox as a process and not a happening or event. ( Meaning "I got saved yesterday" does not compute with the Orthodox) Salvation is not just an escape from death or hell but entering into life in Christ here and now and tomorrow and forever.

 

[Standing Up]

To be saved or to be in Communion?

We all know that there are membership requirements if one wants to belong to any denomination, and we don't consider all of them to be theologically essential. So no, that's not part of the issue.

Think of the cross. There's the vertical (what must I believe to be saved?). There's the horizontal (what must I believe to be in communion with my group?).

 

[Standing Up]

I don't agree with "concession". Submission to truth is my view. For me, it's not about "my" Church. It's about Christ's Church.-snip-

With certain people and groups, there is always that underlying snobbery of thinking they are the apple of God's eye, they are the Church, no the Christ's Church. Others, well, they're not quite right.

So it goes. C/U on the roundabout.