What do you think?

[ce58]

I'm not quite sure what to think of this article... what do you think?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1645160,00.html

 

[Romans 13:3]

I take that the author wants to go to church, so long as he is not told how to live in accordance to the church.

 

[Fantine]

Buried within all the snappy one-liners, I sensed what I sense about many who want a return of the TLM.

Lots of ego. The writer wants to immerse herself in the candles and incense and chant so that she can block out the distractions and the worshippers around her and engage in some quality private time with Jesus.

Well, duh! The Mass is a community celebration. If you want some quality private time with Jesus, go to an adoration chapel or set up a little home altar with a nice scented candle and some Gregorian chant playing on a CD.

My experience of the TLM as a child was exactly that--several hundred individual worshippers ignoring one another, some saying the Rosary, some reading their missals, all pretty much doing their own thing.

 

[L3g3nd]

He assumes that there won't be an English homily and scripture readings at a TLM mass?

 

[ce58]

He assumes that there won't be an English homily and scripture readings at a TLM mass?

That's what I was thinking... While I've never been to a TLM, I've heard that the homily isn't in Latin...

 

[Pennelope]

Of course there's the "don't tell me what to do" thread running through it. But there's also the awareness that homilies that focus on Lindsay Lohan movies instead of Scripture and the promises of Christ just don't fill the bill. If a desire for the reverent and holy is present in everyone, it's certainly not getting met in some of the phone-it-in Masses that are easy to find. Maybe traditional liturgy will bring people back. Hopefully, solid teaching and good catechesis will keep them back.

 

[Aprill]

That's what I was thinking... While I've never been to a TLM, I've heard that the homily isn't in Latin...

It's not. They read the readings in the vernacular, the gospel in vernacular and the homily in vernacular....and I follow along in my latin/english missal.

As for what everyone else does, I'd say 90% of the people who attend the mass I do, all follow along and respond.

That may not be at every parish.

 

[Rising_Suns]

It almost goes without saying that as a young, progressive-minded American Catholic, I'm at odds with many of the church's rules and with much of its politics. You might thus infer that my generation instinctively rejects the age-old traditions of the church. That would be wrong. In a world unmoored by violence and uncertainty, there is something deeply soothing about participating in ancient rituals practiced by so many. Whatever our issues with the tenets of Catholicism the religion, we still cling to what unites us in Catholicism the faith: our devotion to the celebration of the Eucharist. I confess I adore the rich minutiae of the Mass: the frankincense, the Kyrie, the droning of creeds in a sacred space. It comforts me to know that my family around the globe takes part in the same weekly rites. The common purpose of shared ceremony helps me reflect on the Holy Spirit. With apologies, Father, homilies based on your Netflix queue do not.

It is peculiar that a liberal-minded Catholic would be attracted to the TLM.

I think this is a good sign of things to come.

-Davide

 

[Epiphanygirl]

It is peculiar that a liberal-minded Catholic would be attracted to the TLM.

I think this is a good sign of things to come.

-Davide

She's just listening to her natural yearning for what is sacred !!! many are, especially in this day and age!!!!!

 

[Filia Mariae]

There is a longing in all of us for the sacred and transcendent. That's why, IMO, we are seeing such an attraction to Eastern spirituality today. Popular Christianity has largely abandoned the sacred and transcendent and so people seek it elsewhere.

The author of this article has clearly seen a few too many Masses celebrated with an "entertainment" mentality, poor music, lame and banal homilies, etc. So she is seeking the transcendent in the Tridentine Mass. Its appeal to the senses through incense, bodily postures, etc. is attractive to her (rightly so).

But she wants the form without the content. She wants to observe the Mass, not pray it. It is this observing some type of entertainment or production that has, ironically, plagued the Novus Ordo Mass in many parishes. And when the TLM was the norm, many people observed that Mass too- although probably not as much for the entertainment factor.

 

[Rising_Suns]

There is a longing in all of us for the sacred and transcendent. That's why, IMO, we are seeing such an attraction to Eastern spirituality today. Popular Christianity has largely abandoned the sacred and transcendent and so people seek it elsewhere..

This is exactly the same point that Dr. Alice Von Hildebrand put forth in her talk comparing Eastern spirituality to Catholicism.

You're absolutely right on this. So many americans are attracted to Buddhism because they yearn for that sense of the sacred. They want to be lifted up beyond the common everyday world. And that is precisely what Catholicism has lost the most over the past 40 years.

You and Dr. Hildebrand would get along great I'm sure.

-Davide

 

[Rhamiel]

it is good that people are getting interested in latin mass, I hope it brings people closer to God, I think filia mariae hit the nail on the head

Popular Christianity has largely abandoned the sacred and transcendent and so people seek it elsewhere.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

This is exactly the same point that Dr. Alice Von Hildebrand put forth in her talk comparing Eastern spirituality to Catholicism.

You're absolutely right on this. So many americans are attracted to Buddhism because they yearn for that sense of the sacred. They want to be lifted up beyond the common everyday world. And that is precisely what Catholicism has lost the most over the past 40 years.

You and Dr. Hildebrand would get along great I'm sure.

-Davide

You know I sort of gettng sick of hearing this line of bull.

"The Caholic church lost its sense ot the scared becaus the NO isn't as scared as chant, Latin, and the priest facing the cross."

Can I get a break here ?

First and foremost and why this a line of bull is that a sense of the sacred is an internal thing. Latin, chants and prest facing Jesue with scripted atler boy moves makes good theater but in not in and of intelf any or scared then a Kabuki play.

 

[PolskiKrol]

Apparently he's assuming no homily. And dead language? Latin is alive in the church, in case he doesn't realize.

 

[chrislife]

I actually agree with Charlie on this one. If the current Ordo Missae is reverently done, it can be quite sacred. Is there room for improvement in the liturgy? Sure. And fortunately, that is being worked on (the translation, anyway) as we speak. But I dearly love the Pauline Mass.

This does not mean that someone who loves the TLM is wrong, but there is room for improvement there, too. The fact that it does not require anything of the congregation; the fact that it, too, can "go through the motions" as many who remember it will attest; the fact that there is no proper epiclesis.

The fact is that the liturgy attempts to do the impossible: to express the very sacredness of God and His love and His sacrifice. Nothing on this earth can fully express it, and every liturgy will fall short. But both the TLM and the Pauline liturgy, as well as the liturgies of other Rites, are lovely and sacred.

As for the article, the thing that really stuck out for me was the author's erroneous comment that two divorced parents would not be allowed to receive Communion. As long as they have not remarried and are not living in sin, they may remain in a complete and full sacramental life. It is probably such ignorance of actual Church teachings and laws that turned this woman into a dissenter in the first place. It saddens me that so many leave full communion because of what they think the Church teaches.

 

[Rising_Suns]

I suppose this is a case where people read what they want to read. If one would go back and review post #11, it should be noted that the liturgy was never mentioned nor implied. Charlie was the one who reduced my comment to a liturgy issue.

I believe most traditionalists realize that the struggles the Church faced in recent decades spans beyond the changes in the liturgy. It can be traced to a general degredation of morals in society; in what pope John Paul II called the Culture of Death.

Certainly the release of the TLM is not the answer to all the Church's problems. But it undoubtedly is a step in the right direction. Anyone who argues against this point is part of a dying breed that is not in line with the mind of the Church.

-Davide

 

[Filia Mariae]

You know I sort of gettng sick of hearing this line of bull.

"The Caholic church lost its sense ot the scared becaus the NO isn't as scared as chant, Latin, and the priest facing the cross."

Can I get a break here ?

First and foremost and why this a line of bull is that a sense of the sacred is an internal thing. Latin, chants and prest facing Jesue with scripted atler boy moves makes good theater but in not in and of intelf any or scared then a Kabuki play.

FWIW, I wasn't implying that the Novus Ordo is not as sacred as the TLM. I don't believe that and I would argue with someone who did. I personally prefer the NO to the TLM. I only meant that our culture as whole has lost the sense of the sacred- and liturgy in the typical American parish today rarely reflects the transcendent nature of what's going on.

 

[Fantine]

FWIW, I wasn't implying that the Novus Ordo is not as sacred as the TLM. I don't believe that and I would argue with someone who did. I personally prefer the NO to the TLM. I only meant that our culture as whole has lost the sense of the sacred- and liturgy in the typical American parish today rarely reflects the transcendent nature of what's going on.

The Charismatic Movement does, and its celebration of Mass if about as different from the TLM as two liturgies can be....

The sad thing is that the worshippers create the sense of the transcendent much more than the external choices--music, language, etc.--do.

You want a transcendent Mass? Go to a weekday Mass where everyone who is there is there by choice and not obligation. Breathe in the atmosphere emanating from the congregation. Feel their prayers rising up like incense, and feel the strength of their communal prayers carrying your prayers up to God on a cloud......

Doesn't matter whether the Mass is being celebrated charismatically, as a TLM, whether it is in Swahili or English.....

The congregants create the sense of the transcendent.

 

[IfIonlyhadabrain]

While it's true that objects or motions in and of themselves are not sacred, it is not true that they do not provide a sense of the sacred.

A simple prayer, elegantly prayed, can be extremely moving. The effect comes from the elegant recitation of the one praying, and so emanates from that person's own devotion. Yet, at the same time, an elegant prayer, simply prayed, may also be extremely moving, despite that its expression is not filled with the same passion.

Prayers, and postures, and bells and incense, all they are are signs. But it is also very important to have the signs. One who kneels before the Blessed Sacrament is showing via the sign of kneeling what reverence he has for the Blessed Sacrament, or that the Blessed Sacrament is worthy of adoration (even when that person is really feeling particularly reverential). The use of incense is a sign of adoration and worship. True, these signs may be used to signify other things, but the meanings are generally understood by those observing the signs.

The Church recognizes this. That is why the Church has such a highly developed Liturgy. If signs weren't important, then there would be no ritual surrounding the Sacrament. But signs are important.

YES, one can be spiritual and graceful and full of the Holy Spirit and life and joy and devotion and sincerity and love and reverence and all things virtuous without all of the hooplah. But the hooplah is also there for a reason, to help uplift one's mind the holy things.

 

[Filia Mariae]

The Charismatic Movement does, and its celebration of Mass if about as different from the TLM as two liturgies can be...

The sad thing is that the worshippers create the sense of the transcendent much more than the external choices--music, language, etc.--do.

You want a transcendent Mass? Go to a weekday Mass where everyone who is there is there by choice and not obligation. Breathe in the atmosphere emanating from the congregation. Feel their prayers rising up like incense, and feel the strength of their communal prayers carrying your prayers up to God on a cloud......

Doesn't matter whether the Mass is being celebrated charismatically, as a TLM, whether it is in Swahili or English.....

The congregants create the sense of the transcendent.

I agree that a sense of the transcendent is present in many charismatic liturgies. I think your point is that one liturgical expression doesn't have a monoply on the transcendent, a point with which I would whole-heartedly agree.

I don't agree that that sense is "created" by the worshippers, but certainly reverence and devotion allow the trascendent to shine through and be more easily perceived.