What do you think of this scenario?

[PeterJames0510]

This is from a prominent 'reformed' Baptist minister's appreciation page. I don't agree with the sentiment, but I put it out there to see what any of you think. I also linked to the facebook page it comes from.

“I don’t understand why Christians are so fuzzy in their thinking and practice concerning what has come to be called ‘apologizing.’ A pastor of my acquaintance relates the following incident as illustrative of the point I am making. If one of his children would come to him and say, ‘Dad, I’m sorry; I did this and this,’ he would respond by saying, ‘That’s interesting---you are sorry; well, I am hungry.’ He would then proceed, patiently and biblically, to instruct the child that both of these statements concerned their present state of feeling. The child is sorry, and the dad is hungry.

“Desirous of instructing his child concerning the nature of true repentance and confession of sin, he would then proceed to interact with the child along the following lines: ‘Now tell me what you mean by telling me that you are ‘sorry.’

‘Well, I did or said something I should not have done or said.’

‘Oh, you did? I agree with you; now tell me, what does God call those things we do and say that we should not do or say?’

‘God calls those things sin.’

‘That’s right, and God expects you to call what you did exactly what he says it was---that it was a sin.’

‘Well, Dad, I sinned by doing or saying this or that particular thing. Will you forgive me?’

“At that point, the father acknowledged that he freely and fully forgave his child for the particular sin that he confessed. A spiritually wise father or mother will also seek to instruct his or her child that forgiveness must be sought from God in exactly the same way. The language of Scripture is clear: ‘If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness’ (I John 1:9).”

---Pastor Martin, "Encouragement for Pastors' Wives" booklet, page 27 (available from Chapel Library). A Tribute to Pastor A.N. Martin for his 85th

 

[Hammster]

What exactly do you disagree with?

 

[PeterJames0510]

What exactly do you disagree with?

The tone in which the story comes off as. It's almost like the child did something wrong coming to Mommy and Daddy apologizing. He/she apologizes for their own sinfulness, which is something that many kids today (myself included when I was a child) simply do not do. Instead, we give excuses for what we do and try to run and hide.

My issue is the manner in which this 'teaching lesson' was given. "So kid? I'm hungry, what's it to ya?" And then the 'words of wisdom' come exuding out from the father.

I'm sorry, if my child did that - I would say 'Thank you son for being honest and up front about it. I hope you have also asked forgiveness from God.'

I mean, re-read the article. The kid knows its sin! He doesn't need a lecture from the parent.

 

[Hammster]

Did the child freely admit what he did, and turn himself in, so to speak? Or was he caught?

 

[PeterJames0510]

Did the child freely admit what he did, and turn himself in, so to speak? Or was he caught?

Well, the narrative says "If one of his children would come to him and say ..."

I am assuming the best in the kid as well as their reasons for coming. I'm assuming the kid is not saying "I sinned" and "I'm sorry" under coercion. But I don't know for sure, I think it's postulated as a hypothetical scenario and therefore- we don't know any of the details surrounding this incident. As it stands, I think it makes the kid look bad for asking. Do you really want a lecture from your parents when you come apologizing for something you did. That's not mercy.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Kids need not be spared the humiliation of taking a closer look at their own sins so as to not repeat them.

 

[PeterJames0510]

Kids need not be spared the humiliation of taking a closer look at their own sins so as to not repeat them.

Did you just say it's okay to berate a child over the sins they've asked forgiveness for?

 

[tturt]

It seems you would prefer a bottom line approach to begin with. ?

Sharing a meal is an established vehicle to communicate Acts ,2:46, Luk 15:2

 

[Hammster]

Well, the narrative says "If one of his children would come to him and say ..."

I am assuming the best in the kid as well as their reasons for coming. I'm assuming the kid is not saying "I sinned" and "I'm sorry" under coercion. But I don't know for sure, I think it's postulated as a hypothetical scenario and therefore- we don't know any of the details surrounding this incident. As it stands, I think it makes the kid look bad for asking. Do you really want a lecture from your parents when you come apologizing for something you did. That's not mercy.

You’ve identified the problem. You assume one scenario that paints this kid as a good kid. How old is he? How did he become good? Did his dad have anything to do with it?

 

[Hammster]

Did you just say it's okay to berate a child over the sins they've asked forgiveness for?

Berate? I don’t see any berating.

 

[PeterJames0510]

It seems you would prefer a bottom line approach to begin with. ?

Sharing a meal is an established vehicle to communicate Acts ,2:46, Luk 15:2

Oh, I don't mind talking about it; bottom lines are okay but not always useful.

I guess my point is that this story above is so subjective. But imagine your parent saying 'I'm hungry' and trying to use that as a launching off point to teach you that you should be sorry for and acknowledge your sins to God. I don't see that as loving and kind.

I see as loving and kind as saying "Thank you for coming to me about this problem and know that I always accept and forgive you."

Not some weird esoteric 'parable' that is supposed to make the parent out to be some sort of 'wise' person. Why can't we just be merciful and loving to our children, not esoteric and weird in our approach? The kid knew it was wrong; the kid knew it was sin. And in fact, I would think a wise parent might actually realize their kid might have beaten themselves up over their sin all night long (at least my son did so).

I really continue to stand by that original story is not the whole story and is not a loving way to approach parenting.

 

[PeterJames0510]

Berate? I don’t see any berating.

But I do. I mean listen to it:

"Kids need not be spared the humiliation of taking a closer look at their own sins so as to not repeat them."

I mean, why do we have to humiliate our kids? We're just trying to be godly in this world and learn how to love others and be merciful. We can say to our kids, 'Look, we need to respect and love our siblings and your little sis might be hurt now because of what you did. She's a human being too and needs God's love and we need to love and respect her and her feelings to.' - That's fine.

But trying to 'humiliate' your kids? That's a sure fire way to actually get your kids to not do what God wants.

 

[Hammster]

But I do. I mean listen to it:

"Kids need not be spared the humiliation of taking a closer look at their own sins so as to not repeat them."

I mean, why do we have to humiliate our kids? We're just trying to be godly in this world and learn how to love others and be merciful. We can say to our kids, 'Look, we need to respect and love our siblings and your little sis might be hurt now because of what you did. She's a human being too and needs God's love and we need to love and respect her and her feelings to.' - That's fine.

But trying to 'humiliate' your kids? That's a sure fire way to actually get your kids to not do what God wants.

There’s a difference between humiliating someone, and someone experiencing humiliation for something they have done.

 

[PeterJames0510]

There’s a difference between humiliating someone, and someone experiencing humiliation for something they have done.

First of all as parents, if we know something we do is going to humiliate - we don't get to separate ourselves and say - well, we didn't humiliate them. We let their introspection of sin humiliate them, we encouraged it - but it wasn't us. No. We humiliate them.

Secondly, as we constantly tell our kids they are sinners and they have sin in their lives as believers - guess what? They are going to sin ... and sin ... and sin. This is basic.

What we need to teach them is that they are New Creatures, they have New Desires, they are Saints of God, they are Dead to Sin, they are complete in Christ, they have been lifted up to heavenly places in Christ Jesus, they have everything they need to live a godly life. All of this from Romans 6, Colossians 2, Ephesians 2, 2 Corinthians 5, 1 Peter 1.

The OLD way and the way apparently of many 'reformed' is to humiliate and berate our children. But the Bible way is to correct when necessary; but when they do come us to asking forgiveness, we can show them these scriptures to help them. Not sap the joy from their life and existence because we think they should feel 'more' guilt, 'more' humiliation, 'more' punishment for what they have done.

 

[Hammster]

First of all as parents, if we know something we do is going to humiliate - we don't get to separate ourselves and say - well, we didn't humiliate them. We let their introspection of sin humiliate them, we encouraged it - but it wasn't us. No. We humiliate them.

Secondly, as we constantly tell our kids they are sinners and they have sin in their lives as believers - guess what? They are going to sin ... and sin ... and sin. This is basic.

What we need to teach them is that they are New Creatures, they have New Desires, they are Saints of God, they are Dead to Sin, they are complete in Christ, they have been lifted up to heavenly places in Christ Jesus, they have everything they need to live a godly life. All of this from Romans 6, Colossians 2, Ephesians 2, 2 Corinthians 5, 1 Peter 1.

The OLD way and the way apparently of many 'reformed' is to humiliate and berate our children. But the Bible way is to correct when necessary; but when they do come us to asking forgiveness, we can show them these scriptures to help them. Not sap the joy from their life and existence because we think they should feel 'more' guilt, 'more' humiliation, 'more' punishment for what they have done.

You still aren’t making the discrimination between humiliating someone, and them being humiliated by what they’ve done.

 

[PeterJames0510]

You still aren’t making the discrimination between humiliating someone, and them being humiliated by what they’ve done.

I'm not making that distinction because there is no disctinction.

#1) If a parent says "Kids need not be spared the humiliation of taking a closer look at their own sins so as to not repeat them." - That is a parent *directly* saying they want their child to be humiliated. This is the way some people are; they feel that the more guilty, the more humiliated, the more awfully bad they feel about their sinfulness - that is somehow the 'magic' that will get them not to sin.

That kid may have beat themselves up all night over their sin and already know all about that grief (which by the way, if the child is taught correctly the things of God- they don't have to do.) In fact in the original story, the kid already knew he had done wrong and that it was sin. But now we've got some weird smart alecy parent who wants to "teach" the child ... teach them what? To be more humiliated, more guilty, more feeling terrible about themselves? The scriptures certainly don't teach us that is the remedy for sin.

This is what I mean; parents don't get to say 'Oh, I just let them/made them look at their sin ... but I wasn't the one who humiliated them, they did that on their own.' -- TRANSLATED: I kicked my kid to the curb!

#2) I'm not saying that a child shouldn't receive consequences for doing wrong; I'm saying we as parents ought *not* be active in trying to humiliate them ... especially when they've come to us already feeling bad about it.

 

[Hammster]

#2) I'm not saying that a child shouldn't receive consequences for doing wrong;

Can one of those consequences be the feeling of humiliation?

 

[PeterJames0510]

Can one of those consequences be the feeling of humiliation?

Absolutely.

That does not mean we should want our kids to go through that humiliation, nor should we distance ourselves when they do feel it. We also should own up and say 'Well, geez kid. I want you to feel guilty for what you've done and the best I thought to do was not to stop you from feeling humiliation from your sin.'

To be honest, with this scenario above - no wonder we have kids that reject God and reject the faith because they have jerks for parents!

 

[Hammster]

Absolutely

Then my point is made and confirmed.

 

[Hammster]

To be honest, with this scenario above - no wonder we have kids that reject God and reject the faith because they have jerks for parents!

There’s not enough info in the illustration to make any sort of determination.