What do you think of this page ?

[cygnusx1]

Here is a brief extract ;

A man distressed by my allegiance to Reformed theology recently gave me a book titled The Other Side of Calvinism (Laurence M. Vance, Vance Publications, 1991), a misguided nuclear attack on Calvinistic understanding and practice of theology. Vance passionately writes,

[size=-1]Nothing will deaden a church or put a young man out of the ministry any more than an adherence to Calvinism. Nothing will foster pride and indifference as will an affection for Calvinism. Nothing will destroy holiness and spirituality as an attachment to Calvinism. There is no greater violator of every hermeneutical, contextual, analytical, and exegetical interpretation of Scripture than Calvinism (pg. viii). [/size]​

Again he writes, "The doctrines of Calvinism will deaden and kill anything: prayer, faith, zeal, holiness" (pg.15). The entire book is a bitter tirade that should be read by all good Calvinists. He moves far beyond intellectual debate with brothers in the Lord. He's downright nasty. But it makes me ask, "What has been this man's experience with Calvinists that evokes the scathing hostility oozing from this book?"

What disturbs me most is not that he accuses Reformed people of being mean-spirited, heretical dispensers of unholy, devilish lies. What disturbs me most is not that Reformed theologians are accused of sick interpretation of Scripture and, therefore, are false witnesses of God. What disturbs me most is that he never accuses Calvinists of being great lovers of sinners. Is there evidence to support such an accusation if someone were bold enough to make it?

You may say, "Telling them the Truth is the highest form of love," and I will agree, but add "Beloved, let us not love in word only, but in word and in deed." How you tell the truth and how you practice the truth make the difference. Deeds of real love accompanying vital evangelism are often woefully missing from Reformed students of the Bible. Kinder, gentler Calvinism driven by demonstrative love seems to be a rare commodity. It ought not to be. Calvinism, above other understandings of the Bible, rests on the only true foundation for preaching about the loving God who has sovereignly guaranteed the success of the Gospel. The observation made of the early church was "Behold how they love one another." John, the Apostle of Love, gives clear criteria for determining true disciples of Jesus, finally boiling it down to I John 3:23, "And this is His command: to believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as He commanded us." Surely John missed a good opportunity to state clearly and succinctly the Five Points of Calvinism as the criteria of true discipleship!

http://www.rts.edu/quarterly/summer00/mcguire.html

 

[frumanchu]

I think history speaks for itself. Calvinism is behind some of the greatest evangelistic and missionary movements of the past few centuries. I know of not one single Calvinist who is uninterested in personal holiness, without compassion for the lost, dismissive of prayer, or less than zealous for Christ.

I'm willing to bet this man has not read through the Institutes, has not read much of any Spurgeon, has not read anything of Jonathan Edwards (beyond a scan of Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God for ammo) or George Whitefield... I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, because if he HAS read those things and is making the statements he is, he's a liar with a bone to pick. Plain and simple. I know of few other lies that irritate me more than the one that Calvinists are cold, heartless, prideful and indifferent. It's both historically ignorant and utterly insulting.

 

[cygnusx1]

I think history speaks for itself. Calvinism is behind some of the greatest evangelistic and missionary movements of the past few centuries. I know of not one single Calvinist who is uninterested in personal holiness, without compassion for the lost, dismissive of prayer, or less than zealous for Christ.

I'm willing to bet this man has not read through the Institutes, has not read much of any Spurgeon, has not read anything of Jonathan Edwards (beyond a scan of Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God for ammo) or George Whitefield... I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, because if he HAS read those things and is making the statements he is, he's a liar with a bone to pick. Plain and simple. I know of few other lies that irritate me more than the one that Calvinists are cold, heartless, prideful and indifferent. It's both historically ignorant and utterly insulting.

mmmmmmm , maybe I was wrong to select that quote from his page..... he is a Presbyterian Minister.

Dr. James McGuire is Senior Pastor of Ward Evangelical Presbyterian Church in Northville, Michigan, and moderator of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. An RTS alumnus, he also holds degrees from Belhaven College in Jackson, Mississippi, and McCormick Theological Seminary. He served as the founding pastor of Lakeside Presbyterian Church from 1973-1995. He is married to the former Lucy Whitsett and has three sons.

perhaps reading the article in it's entirety will put a different angle on it.

 

[Imblessed]

I'll tell you one thing. I'm new to calvinism and reformed thought, but I can assure you that this has not been my experience yet. I've finally found a group of people who truly DO love one another, and support one another, and truly do yearn to do the will of God.

I've seen disagreements among us, even "big" ones, dealt with in love and humility toward each other, never reverting to name calling or slander.

I don't know where this guy gets his info---I guess every group has it's extremists--but it's just not true of any calvinists or reformers I'VE ever met.

Our church is a calvinist church, and it's one of the most evangelical churches in town, and there are a LOT of churches in this town(above average). The love that the members of our church have for eachother and our community is evident in everything we do. It's WAY far from "[size=-1]Nothing will deaden a church or put a young man out of the ministry any more than an adherence to Calvinism" [/size]

I didn't actually go to the page Cygnusx1, what you cut and pasted was enough for me to know that I don't really want to go there......I'm just not ready for that kind of reading right now...

 

[cygnusx1]

It's WAY far from "[size=-1]Nothing will deaden a church or put a young man out of the ministry any more than an adherence to Calvinism" [/size]

Hi imblessed

you do realise that that is a quote from an anti-Calvinist to the Reformed Pastor (I think it came from Vance's book) and NOT the Reformed Pastor speaking .

I didn't actually go to the page Cygnusx1, what you cut and pasted was enough for me to know that I don't really want to go there......I'm just not ready for that kind of reading right now...

Fair enough , I think I quoted the page without thinking of how it might be received ...... my mistake.

 

[Imblessed]

Hi imblessed

you do realise that that is a quote from an anti-Calvinist to the Reformed Pastor (I think it came from Vance's book) and NOT the Reformed Pastor speaking .


Fair enough , I think I quoted the page without thinking of how it might be received ...... my mistake.

yes, I realized it was the anti-calvinist speaking- i take it the page is actually the reformed pastor's response to the anti-calvinist book??

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

The vitriolic rhetoric and indefensible dogmatic accusations made by the anti-calvinist author is but part of a dispensationalist attack against Covenant Theology spurned on about the same time by Hal make a false prediction a day Lindsey in his book, "The Coming Holocaust", in which Lindsey irresponsible accuses Covenant Theology of being the instrument for another holocaust against the Jews in the USA.

Yet another in the same vein is titled, "The Dark Side of Calvinism".

As we have all seen, there is a great deal of hatred for Calvinism and Calvinists that goes far beyond mere agreeing to disagree or lively debating.

I'm afraid that many dispensationalists these days think they are the one true church and the only arbitors of truth.

 

[cygnusx1]

yes, I realized it was the anti-calvinist speaking- i take it the page is actually the reformed pastor's response to the anti-calvinist book??

Yes Imblessed , what the Reformed Pastor was questioning (he gave his reasons at the beginning) was why some have such a negative effect towards Calvinist's. (there may be many reasons , he just was dealing with things from his experience)

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

"The doctrines of Calvinism will deaden and kill anything: prayer, faith, zeal, holiness"

That's funny, I experienced the exact opposite. As I came to understand and accept the doctrines of Calvinism, I also experienced a growth in the life of my prayer, faith, zeal, and holiness. I used to just give up because I kept doubting my salvation everytime I caught myself sinning, and other false doctrines I believed cause me to do even worse things. At any rate, I was pretty much in the dumps before I migrated to Calvinism. I shouldn't have been so surprised at how much people hate Calvinism, though. I used to hate it with a fierce passion.

 

[Tertiumquid]

A man distressed by my allegiance to Reformed theology recently gave me a book titled The Other Side of Calvinism (Laurence M. Vance, Vance Publications, 1991), a misguided nuclear attack on Calvinistic understanding and practice of theology.

Hi Cyg- you're lucky, I actually bought my copy of Vance's book. Do you have the revised version, or the original? If I recall Vance is a KJV only guy (though I haven't looked into his work in quite some time, so I might have him confused with someone else). Someone, I think on these forums actually e-mailed a review that one was done on Vance's book from a Reformed perspective. If you're interested, i'll try to track it down, though whoever it was will probably respond in this thread. I'm fairly certain I met the guy here. Here is a link for all you folks who don't go and buy non-Reformed books attacking the truth like me:

http://www.vancepublications.com/articles%20by%20lmv.htm

Vance passionately writes,

Nothing will deaden a church or put a young man out of the ministry any more than an adherence to Calvinism. Nothing will foster pride and indifference as will an affection for Calvinism. Nothing will destroy holiness and spirituality as an attachment to Calvinism. There is no greater violator of every hermeneutical, contextual, analytical, and exegetical interpretation of Scripture than Calvinism (pg. viii). ​

Again he writes, "The doctrines of Calvinism will deaden and kill anything: prayer, faith, zeal, holiness" (pg.15).

Yawn. Part of duping people is the use of highly rhetorical emotional argument. Not impressed.

The entire book is a bitter tirade that should be read by all good Calvinists. He moves far beyond intellectual debate with brothers in the Lord. He's downright nasty. But it makes me ask, "What has been this man's experience with Calvinists that evokes the scathing hostility oozing from this book?"

It's his Mona Lisa. I'm not sure people should read it, or if its even readable due to its length. I use it for research purposes to see what those on the "other side" are saying.

What disturbs me most is not that he accuses Reformed people of being mean-spirited, heretical dispensers of unholy, devilish lies. What disturbs me most is not that Reformed theologians are accused of sick interpretation of Scripture and, therefore, are false witnesses of God. What disturbs me most is that he never accuses Calvinists of being great lovers of sinners. Is there evidence to support such an accusation if someone were bold enough to make it?

More emotional rhetoric. Like, what type of scientific test did he do to come to this conclusion? Now, I enjoy a good debate, and I don't mind if things get a little "rough" (that's why I like Luther so much). But really, his book could be half the size and be taken more seriously if cut out this type of nonsense.

You may say, "Telling them the Truth is the highest form of love," and I will agree, but add "Beloved, let us not love in word only, but in word and in deed." How you tell the truth and how you practice the truth make the difference. Deeds of real love accompanying vital evangelism are often woefully missing from Reformed students of the Bible. Kinder, gentler Calvinism driven by demonstrative love seems to be a rare commodity.

Yes and no.

With non-Reformed friends and family, I never get nasty, because I realize not everyone is ready to have their traditions messed with. Secondly, I think that Calvin not treating the subject of Predestination/election till much later in the Institutes is very telling. Even Luther discouraged his pupils from probing the secret councils of God. I usually assume my non-Reformed friends are not ready to hear the truth. I normally wait for them to ask me, and then we talk about it.

On the other hand, let us not back down from challenges, as they can be used, even with "debate". Luther used to get quite animated when he debate via writing. Luther felt he was following the example of Christ. Luther asks rhetorically if the Lord used abusive language against his enemies: “Was he abusive when he called the Jews an adulterous and perverse generation, an offspring of vipers, hypocrites, and children of the Devil?… The truth, which one is conscious of possessing, cannot be patient against its obstinate and intractable enemies.” In similar fashion, Luther responded to his opponent Latomus:

“He [Latomus] says that I lack the evangelical modesty which I enjoin, and that this is especially true of the book in which I replied to the sophists of Louvain when they condemned my teachings.  Now I have never insisted that anyone consider me modest or holy, but only that everyone recognize what the gospel is. If they do this, I give anyone freedom to attack my life to his heart’s content. My boast is that I have injured no one’s life or reputation, but only sharply reproached, as godless and sacrilegious, those assertions, inventions, and doctrines which are against the Word of God. I do not apologize for this, for I have good precedents. John the Baptist [Luke 3:7] and Christ after him [Matt. 23:33] called the Pharisees the “offspring of vipers.” So excessive and outrageous was this abuse of such learned, holy, powerful, and honored men that they said in reply that He had a demon [John 7:20]. If in this instance Latomus had been judge, I wonder what the verdict would have been! Elsewhere Christ calls them “blind” [Matt. 23:16], “crooked,” “liars,” “sons of the devil” [John 8:44, 55]. Good God, even Paul lacked evangelical modesty when he anathematized the teachers of the Galatians [Gal. 1:8] who were, I suppose, great men. Others he calls “dogs” [Phil. 3:2], “empty talkers” [***. 1:10], “deceivers” [Col. 2:4, 8]. Further, he accused to his face the magician Elymas with being a “son of the devil, full of all deceit and villainy [Acts 13:10].”

Now don't misunderstand, i'm not suggesting we follow Luther here. Only to point out, there are times that we must not back down from being challenged because we don't want to appear unloving.

Blessings,
James Swan