What do you think of the Crusades?

[Henaynei]

there is a student in another thread who is asking this question as s/he prepares to give a report on the subject

I invite you to express the truths about the Crusades from a Jewish and Messianic POV

BUT PLEASE do so without being part of any move to turn the thread into a battle ground over these truths.... go in peace and humility with a gentle heart and posting style/content....

that said:
the thread is here
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7249131

 

[Henaynei]

none of the Jews on this forum feel up to the call, no?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is not permitted.
(too many truthful posts get delted)
the crusades are still going on, against all true ones of Yhvh who honor Shabbat and Keep His Word.
It is happening veryy severely right now on the internet.... (many more , or a few?, posters will soon no longer be around)
Every post that exposes the one world gov and reveals its anti-c activity is delted. Y?
The u.s.a. authorities support what is wrong at every turn, and oppose what is right.
Under guise of 'xxxyyyzzz'...
That includes internet 'police' (mods)

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

What is the Jewish thought on the crusades? I know some but not a lot about them myself.

 

[Bananna]

As ignorant as I am of history, Crusades to take back the nation for God is well a very gorish way of saying evangelism today.Early Crusades sounded like evangelism turned bloody greed. Stamping their sins with the Popes approval. A sort of indulgence. Not sure if any of them were saved who went crusading. Pretty sure no one forced to convert was truely converted and if they were converted what were they converted to? Not the Gospel of Christ IMO. Maybe to slaves of indulgence.

 

[ContraMundum]

The Crusades were a response to Islamic imperialism over centuries that included the invasion of Europe itself. That being said, they were very poorly conducted and obviously unGodly.

There is no such thing as a "Messianic" Perspective on the Crusades. Let's not stoop to sloganeering, and stop pretending that some Messianic scholars got together and worked out a new version of history- nothing of the sort has happened or will in the near future. There is the facts, and the facts alone. No one sect of the church can lay claim to that.

 

[ContraMundum]

I
the crusades are still going on, against all true ones of Yhvh who honor Shabbat and Keep His Word.

Give us a break. You wouldn't know the first thing about being persecuted and slain for your beliefs, jeff. You live in a free country, post and say anything you like with very little real accountability, you can buy and sell, preach and write, and just about anything else. Don't even start thinking you can claim being persecuted when other Christians in the world actually get killed for their beliefs.

It is happening veryy severely right now on the internet.... (many more , or a few?, posters will soon no longer be around)

You're comparing people disagreeing with each other on the internet with the Crusades. That trivialises the true nature of the sins carried out during the Crusades.

'Nuff said.

Every post that exposes the one world gov and reveals its anti-c activity is delted. Y?

Because those posts never have any substance and they blame people for things they can't prove...that's why. (If your claim is really true, and I don't think it is)

The u.s.a. authorities support what is wrong at every turn, and oppose what is right.

Vote better and demand more accountability from the politicians then. It's no conspiracy, it's our own collective fault.

That includes internet 'police' (mods)

The mod staff don't care about your beliefs, they care about your actions on the forum.

 

[Bananna]

World wide the muslim extremists are slaughtering God's people, Jew and gentile. Right now they are slinging propaganda in our schools for muslims and against Christians. That is called cultural understanding rather that religious prejudice it is.The root of the crusades was greed and it still is. And we have seen less than reputable charlitans sneak in to the mods relm before. I've not seen them last there thankfully.bananna

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The Crusades were a response to Islamic imperialism over centuries that included the invasion of Europe itself. That being said, they were very poorly conducted and obviously unGodly.

There is no such thing as a "Messianic" Perspective on the Crusades. Let's not stoop to sloganeering, and stop pretending that some Messianic scholars got together and worked out a new version of history- nothing of the sort has happened or will in the near future. There is the facts, and the facts alone. No one sect of the church can lay claim to that.

Are you saying that what the Jews say happened is not true?

 

[ContraMundum]

Are you saying that what the Jews say happened is not true?

No, what made you think that? I'm just saying, to put it more simply if I could possibly, that there is no "Messianic" perspective. There's the facts, and no one owns them. I don't support a rosy view of the Crusades (as should have been obvious by my comments, spiritpsalmist).

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

No, what made you think that? I'm just saying, to put it more simply if I could possibly, that there is no "Messianic" perspective. There's the facts, and no one owns them. I don't support a rosy view of the Crusades (as should have been obvious by my comments, spiritpsalmist).

I'm sorry. I read it several times to try and understand what you were saying and I just got the impression that there were differing stories from both sides and that the Jews/Messianic side was not a fact. I would think that the Jew (or Messianic) would have a thought on it. Sorry I misunderstood. That is why I asked.

 

[ContraMundum]

World wide the muslim extremists are slaughtering God's people, Jew and gentile.

Correct. Ever wonder why the rise in recent times?

Right now they are slinging propaganda in our schools for muslims and against Christians. That is called cultural understanding rather that religious prejudice it is.

Right....but many people are moderate Muslims who have been ill-treated and misunderstood, even tortured esp. since 9/11. Surely, educating the people about moderate Islamic ideals is not a bad thing, is it? Or are we becoming more and more like the superstitious fearful society of the witch trials era? I don't know. What do you think?

The root of the crusades was greed and it still is.

Kinda-sorta, but then again, you already mentioned that you were not an expert in the topic, which is fair enough, because it's messy anyway. Certainly the Crusades developed into imperialist greed, but then again, that's how Islam got the Holy Land in the first place. It's all bad. Thank God our Kingdom is not of this world.

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm sorry. I read it several times to try and understand what you were saying and I just got the impression that there were differing stories from both sides and that the Jews/Messianic side was not a fact. I would think that the Jew (or Messianic) would have a thought on it. Sorry I misunderstood. That is why I asked.

OK, fair enough. I'm sorry, I should respect your question more and spend some time on it.

As a Messianic Jew (who attends a mainstream church) I certainly think the Crusades are a topic too big to tackle and say "that's it". I despise what was done to the Jews in the name of Christ during the Crusades, but I also despise what was done to Orthodox Christians by those same bands of Western European soldiers and nobles. I feel equally appaled at what happened to the innocent Muslims.

However, on the other hand, I kind of understand why the Western Church felt under seige by Islamic imperialism, and why it struck at the heart of the matter, eg. freeing the "Holy Land" from the rule of Islam. It didn't work, but the subsequent assaults on Europe by Muslim armies and navies were soundly defeated, and since those times neither side has tried to take over the other (at least militarily. I am convinced that Muslims are trying to take over Europe from the inside, but it appears to be a dismal failure). In other words, I guess the Crusades helped end the continuous warring between Islam and the West for a time.

There was a really interesting article on the topic in "Christianity Today" magazine. You might be able to find it online somewhere.

 

[Henaynei]

There is no such thing as a "Messianic" Perspective on the Crusades. Let's not stoop to sloganeering, and stop pretending that some Messianic scholars got together and worked out a new version of history- nothing of the sort has happened or will in the near future. There is the facts, and the facts alone. No one sect of the church can lay claim to that.

Dear CM,

I am not good at saying such things and so I'll just barge ahead and pray for the best.... you replies to my posts lately in several threads have taken a seemingly brusque, belittling and abrasive tone. I admit to being disquieted by several of them.

Of course, there is such a thing as Messianic perspective on the Crusades, just as there is a Messianic Perspective on the place of the Law and such.... all based on the paradigm and differing vantage point of a Messianic. This is so especially of many Jewish Messianics, and definitely of many non-believing Jews. The church view that has prevailed for centuries of the glorious Crusades to deliver the Holy Land from the Infidel Muslims is myopic, to say the least. Among other disturbing and heinous actions and goals, the crusades also included raping, pillaging and burning Jews and their towns and their synagogues, even to hearding entire villages into their synagogue and burning it to the ground - and not just in the "Holy Land." We can try to excuse such excesses as being based on the bloodlust of the Crusades and the spiritual ignorance of the day, but that does not erase the fact of their occurance.

It is quite true that there is no monolith of Messianic authorities, nevertheless that does not obviate a Messianic response to this and many other issues and questions that intersect with MJism.

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[visionary]

There were many events called crusades in a whole lot of centuries.. which one are we speaking of... then we can talk about the details.

 

[Bananna]

Correct. Ever wonder why the rise in recent times?



Right....but many people are moderate Muslims who have been ill-treated and misunderstood, even tortured esp. since 9/11. Surely, educating the people about moderate Islamic ideals is not a bad thing, is it? Or are we becoming more and more like the superstitious fearful society of the witch trials era? I don't know. What do you think?

What they are doing is claiming moderate muslims the only muslims and all christians are not allowed to mention extremist positions and christians are not allowed to talk about christ and are being presented as religious fanatics.If they want moderate mainstream views of american muslims then they need to accept educating people on all moderate views of all religions. Muslims should not be the only ones that get to speak about religion in the schools.
Thus I said that it was pure prejudice (against christians and Jews).
We had a professor abducted by government for nine months for being married to a muslim woman and handling muslim cases in court. Next it will be the christians and the Jews that loose all rights and anyone else that refuses the NWO.
I'd say we have the makings of a new crusade coming our way.

 

[Holy Roller]

The church view that has prevailed for centuries of the glorious Crusades to deliver the Holy Land from the Infidel Muslims is myopic, to say the least. Among other disturbing and heinous actions and goals, the crusades also included raping, pillaging and burning Jews and their towns and their synagogues...

b'Shalom
Henaynei

I saw it coming...
...I saw it coming from miles and miles away...

 

[Holy Roller]

The truth of the matter is is that the crusades were initially blind to any religion. They simply started out as a way for the Byzantine empire to defend itself against the Turks, whom in 1048 were in concentrated bands stealing and in general just terrorizing the Byzantines.
The Emperor Alexios and Michael VII had to appeal to Pope Urban around 1050-1057, which is the cause for all liberal educators (as well as people who thrive off playing the victim) to ascribe a religious, Christian explanation for the crusades when in fact they were never Christian at the outset.
Emporer Fulin also appealed to China, furter reinforcing the truth about these just wars.
Later, after many Turks occupied what is now Israel and Lebanon, Pope Urban II declared Just War against the occupiers and retook the area, including Jerusalem.

Many liberal, secular educators will want to decieve students into beliving that the crusades were a set of atrocities committed by bloodthirsty Christian warriors so that these warriors will go to heaven as martyrs. I urge you not to believe them; these liberal educators will do anything to denounce Christianity (because the liberal educator incorrectly percieves Christianity as being intolerant, thus an enemy that has to be destroyed), even if it means lying about history.
If the crusades were about bloodthirsty Christians committing atrocities against Jewish or Muslim victims, then why did Pope Urban's men also war against other Christians? Why don't the liberal educators tell you that the Pope was sending in his men to help the secularish Byzantine empire?
Why do they refues to tell you that the Byzantine empire had to look to China as well as the land under the Pope's juristiction?
I'll tell you why. If the liberal educator told you all that, you'd connect the obvious dots that prove the crusades were not about religions. They weren't about Christians committing atrocities against Jews or Muslims. The crusades were simply a time in our history a lot like the Wild West: warring bands of Turks causing trouble they knew they could get away with because there weren't an effective policing agency of any kind.
Etc, etc, etc.

 

[ContraMundum]

Dear CM,

I am not good at saying such things and so I'll just barge ahead and pray for the best.... you replies to my posts lately in several threads have taken a seemingly brusque, belittling and abrasive tone. I admit to being disquieted by several of them.

To be candid and fair, I find your posts equally annoying and frustrating, and their tone very condescending.

Perhaps you might leave it there.

Of course, there is such a thing as Messianic perspective on the Crusades, just as there is a Messianic Perspective on the place of the Law and such.... all based on the paradigm and differing vantage point of a Messianic.

I don't think there is. Why? Because there is no one "Messianic" perspective on the place of the law, no one "Messianic" perspective on what makes one Messianic, no one "Messianic" perspective on just about anything at all really. Therefore how anyone can claim that there is some official Messianic perspective on something as elusive and complicated as the Crusades? The idea would be purely mythical, if not brashly absurd, given the state of MJism at present. Many many years in the future, when Messiancs have gotten more organised and had members attain a decent level of recognisable scholarship. Until then, it's open slather.

What you mean by "Messianic Perspective" really only amounts to personal opinions and perspectives. Unless of course, you can provide for us an official position paper on the topic universally agreed to by all claiming to be Messianic, which you know is not currently possible.

The church view that has prevailed for centuries of the glorious Crusades to deliver the Holy Land from the Infidel Muslims is myopic, to say the least.

Funny, I've never heard that view in church.

Among other disturbing and heinous actions and goals, the crusades also included raping, pillaging and burning Jews and their towns and their synagogues, even to hearding entire villages into their synagogue and burning it to the ground - and not just in the "Holy Land." We can try to excuse such excesses as being based on the bloodlust of the Crusades and the spiritual ignorance of the day, but that does not erase the fact of their occurance.

Yes, and not one person here disagrees with that. However, some of us say that even that statement is not nearly close to telling the whole truth.

It is quite true that there is no monolith of Messianic authorities, nevertheless that does not obviate a Messianic response to this and many other issues and questions that intersect with MJism.

...right....so it becomes only personal opinions. This Messianic Jew generally agrees with you, but objects to others speaking on his behalf as if there is one monolithic sect that speaks for me.

 

[Henaynei]

To ALL my brothers and sisters in this thread, and this forum

Gmar HaTima Tova v' Tzom Kal
A good sealing and an easy fast....