What do you think of John Bunyan's views?

[Aldebaran]

I was reading a book by John Bunyan called the Strait Gate that someone referred to me (available free online) and it left me depressed. It seemed like his view throughout the book is that most people are going to hell, including Christians who think they are saved. He seems to think that most Christians are going to hell. Hardly uplifting!

I've read Pilgrim's Progress part 1 and 2 and enjoyed them, so I'm surprised to feel otherwise by the Strait Gate.

Anyone familiar with this book, I'd love to hear your opinion. I've looked up reviews on the book and they seem to be 100% positive. Hmmmm.

 

[Look Up]

I have not read the Strait Gate, but in Pilgrim's Progress recall the character Christian facing many temptations and trials to reach the Celestial City in mimicry of the temptations and trials that are the usual lot of Christians as the Christian life is represented and modeled in the NT (esp. by Jesus and the apostles).

Along the way in the allegory, Christian met Pliable (who turned back), ones in fear fleeing back down the path (away from the Celestial City) away from the Valley of the Shadow of Death, a thief who falsely (in allusion to a point of Biblical metaphor) jumped over the wall and later chose an easy way which led to his death, a Professor who argued himself into a cage, and other assorted "pseudo-Christian" failures.

A more significant question, in other words, is not how we feel about the possibility of tares among the wheat, but whether in fact pseudo-Christians for a time name the Name of Christ, but fall away, and of course whether we or our loved ones are truly Christian or not. There is a difference between assurance of salvation (a real possibility) and blind presumption (a common error).

Also worth noting is that the same path to the Celestial City for Christiana and the children in the second part of Pilgrim's Progress is much easier than for Christian--and of course one may ask what the effects were on the book of what Bunyan witnessed of English civil war, Restoration persecution (including Bunyan's own imprisonment), and the state of Christianity in England as Bunyan saw it in the 17th century.

In the NT, Peter exhorts his hearers to make their calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10) even as Paul exhorts the church at Corinth to test themselves to see whether they are in the faith (2 Cor. 13:5). John writes his first epistle with tests ("test the spirits to see whether they are from God") to discern the difference between Christian and false Christian (confessing Jesus as coming in the flesh, loving the brothers, etc.). And there are antecedents in the OT. Not all who are of Israel are Israel. The issue of the few who find the Strait Gate is not new; for those willing to consider it, the exhortation remains to make every effort to pass through the Strait and avoid the Broad Way.

 

[miamited]

Hi aldebaren,

The question of course is what does God say? Jesus spoke a bit about eternal salvation and how we can be deceived as to having it. The book's title obviously comes from Jesus' comments about the two gates he referenced in speaking about how we get to eternal life. He said that there were two roads that were found leading to two separate gates.

One is broad and many are on it. The other is narrow and few find it. However, most christians believe that this describes the difference between themselves as a whole group and the rest of the unbelieving world of people.

However, in speaking with his disciples at another point he seems to make clear that the warning about the two pathways isn't meant to merely separate christians from the world and the eternal destinies of each. He tells them that not everyone who says to him Lord, Lord will be saved. He says only those who do the will of his Father will be. He speaks of a day, likely the day of God's judgment, when many will clamor to him and 'remind' him of all the good 'christian' things they did in this life. His description describes people who even seem to have a faith greater than my own. They claim of themselves that they did mighty miracles and drove out demons in his name! But he turns them away saying that he never knew them.

So, yes, if eternal life with God our Creator is what we seek, understand that the way is narrow and the path is straight. Just because at some point in our life we felt led to go down front of a congregation and claim Jesus is Lord isn't the way to eternal life. The way to eternal life is to be born again. Renewed from the inside out. This renewal will change us.

It will change the way we understand sin. It will change our worldview. It will change what we believe we know and understand about our Creator. We will not be the same person in our understanding and our way of life once we are born again.

The reason all this will change is because Jesus told us that when we are born again, born of the Spirit of the living God, then his job in our lives was to convict us of sin and lead us into all truth.

So, in summation, I would likely agree with Mr. Bunyan on the subject.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Aldebaran]

Replying to Look Up and Ted:

The thing that bothers me here is that these views seem to suggest that Christ didn't take care of our salvation at the cross. It makes it sound like it's more up to us that it is up to Him. It seems like the idea is Christ paid for our sins and gives us salvation if we call upon Him, but it is up to us to hang onto that salvation and hope we don't let go of it during the rest of our lives. I understand that there are verses in the bible that make it sound this way and I've asked pastors about this, but they say that there are many more that says "once saved, always saved", and that Christ did it all, and that it's not up to us to retain our salvation.

 

[Look Up]

Replying to Look Up and Ted:

The thing that bothers me here is that these views seem to suggest that Christ didn't take care of our salvation at the cross. It makes it sound like it's more up to us that it is up to Him. It seems like the idea is Christ paid for our sins and gives us salvation if we call upon Him, but it is up to us to hang onto that salvation and hope we don't let go of it during the rest of our lives. I understand that there are verses in the bible that make it sound this way and I've asked pastors about this, but they say that there are many more that says "once saved, always saved", and that Christ did it all, and that it's not up to us to retain our salvation.

I think you address a tension I feel too, though I would not agree with "it's more up to us that it is up to Him" and the like (which seem to imply salvation by works of the law or the incompleteness of the atonement of Jesus to pay for sin). We have to ask ourselves whether what we are sensing is representative of the Scriptures or not. I have often asked myself why Jesus does not transport His own to heaven at once upon the moment of regeneration and conversion. Why all this wrestling with sin and ethics (when, as you say in a way that I think represents Scripture also, Christ has paid for all our sins)? Why "to grace so great a debtor daily I'm constrained to be" as a believer in Jesus?

But there it is. What do you make, not of our words, but of the Scripture passages miamited and I have cited or alluded to themselves (and others like them) which trouble you? How do you understand them? And then how do you understand the many relevant Scripture passages cited or alluded to in Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress?

 

[miamited]

Hi aldebaran,

No, Christ's work was sufficient for its purpose. The questions isn't whether or not Christ's work was exactly what the Scriptures claim it to be, but what constitutes true faith that God honors. We're all sinners so if even one person gains eternal life, then Christ's work was sufficient. However, I believe that Jesus was giving us fair warning that there is a way which seems right to a man, but in the end leads to destruction. Jesus said that his burden was light, not easy. The burden that Jesus puts on us is to love God and love others and believe God. It's a light burden, but it's so not easy in this world in which we live.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Aldebaran]

I think you address a tension I feel too, though I would not agree with "it's more up to us that it is up to Him" and the like (which seem to imply salvation by works of the law or the incompleteness of the atonement of Jesus to pay for sin). We have to ask ourselves whether what we are sensing is representative of the Scriptures or not. I have often asked myself why Jesus does not transport His own to heaven at once upon the moment of regeneration and conversion. Why all this wrestling with sin and ethics (when, as you say in a way that I think represents Scripture also, Christ has paid for all our sins)? Why "to grace so great a debtor daily I'm constrained to be" as a believer in Jesus?

But there it is. What do you make, not of our words, but of the Scripture passages miamited and I have cited or alluded to themselves (and others like them) which trouble you? How do you understand them? And then how do you understand the many relevant Scripture passages cited or alluded to in Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress?

As for those verses, I don't know. "give diligence to make your calling and election sure" could be taken to mean that I have to be diligent to make my "election" (something God has already given me), sure. It almost sounds to me like I'd have to be second guessing God for what He has already given me. I mean, let's look at election in another way. If the public elects a person to be President, does he stop being president when he slips up? Now back to Christianity....does a person become an adopted son of God when they're saved, but then become disowned by God when he falls away? The story of the prodigal son is an example used that says "Absolutely not!"

As for 2 Cor 13:5--It almost makes it sound like Christ comes and goes based on how we are at any given time. But at the same time, I read that nothing can separate us from the love of God: Roman 8:31-39

 

[Look Up]

As for those verses, I don't know. "give diligence to make your calling and election sure" could be taken to mean that I have to be diligent to make my "election" (something God has already given me), sure. It almost sounds to me like I'd have to be second guessing God for what He has already given me. I mean, let's look at election in another way. If the public elects a person to be President, does he stop being president when he slips up? Now back to Christianity....does a person become an adopted son of God when they're saved, but then become disowned by God when he falls away? The story of the prodigal son is an example used that says "Absolutely not!"

As for 2 Cor 13:5--It almost makes it sound like Christ comes and goes based on how we are at any given time. But at the same time, I read that nothing can separate us from the love of God: Roman 8:31-39

Well, that is a start. It does some, but little to address issues and associated Scriptures central to your concern on this thread: (1) Are "most Christians [] going to hell"? (2) Is it true "that Christ didn't take care of our salvation [fully] at the cross" but that "it's more up to us that it is up to Him," and (3) "Does a person become an adopted son of God when they're saved, but then become disowned by God when he falls away?" And your response (despite my previous request) does not wrestle with a number of Scripture passages cited or alluded to above or others like them in Scripture. Nor does it go further into Bunyan.

Granted you also doubt affirmative answers to the above paragraph's questions are representative of Scripture (as probably do I, depending on what is meant), and you cite the Prodigal Son parable as supportive of the claim that those adopted in a Christ-saving way do not finally fall away. An elected President does not cease his office when or because he "slips up" (and I think the analogy represents the Scriptures on salvation of us sinners).

Whether Paul in 2 Cor. 13:5 meant what you think he "sounds like" is another question, but it raises one issue of several that think worth articulating:

1) Was Paul in 2 Cor. 13:5 theologically and logically consistent with himself in Rom. 8:31-39? Or more broadly, is the canon of Scriptures coherent? Is a harmonization of the whole possible, even if not always understood?

2) Do true Christians utterly "fall away"/apostatize (esp. after they are truly born again) or does the falling away demonstrate the apostate was never truly a Christian, never truly born again in the first place?

A subsidiary question to # 2 above is whether, once a person is fallen away, can his or her repentance be renewed (can he or she return to being a Christian).

And what does one do with passages of Scripture that suggest a person can fall away/apostatize (alluding for example to Hebrews 6)?
​

3) How many Christians will prove to be truly Christian "at the end of the day" and how do we know who is a Christian and who is not? (I realize that around the fringes, question # 3 is notoriously difficult, but it seems part of what troubles you.) Are there people who think they are Christians, but are not born again?

And what does one think of hard cases of people we know whose salvation may be in doubt in our minds or who have dropped out of church or renounced Christ? Or is it possible a true Christian can doubt his or her salvation, yet be truly saved?
​

4) If there is a conflict between what I think must follow and what the Scripture says is true, which do I believe? I ask the question for the principle of the thing, but have in mind particularly divine sovereignty/human responsibility issues.

At this point I could give more of my opinion (or further represent my camp), but I think preferable is to phrase the questions as above in hopes they help you do more of your own homework, so to speak, though I think by now we can both agree that the Scriptures indicate that if persons are to be saved it is because Jesus paid for all their sins with no exception AND that true Christians cannot utterly fall away/apostatize, but persevere in faith and holiness even if they also sin.

 

[Aldebaran]

Well, that is a start. It does some, but little to address issues and associated Scriptures central to your concern on this thread: (1) Are "most Christians [] going to hell"? (2) Is it true "that Christ didn't take care of our salvation [fully] at the cross" but that "it's more up to us that it is up to Him," and (3) "Does a person become an adopted son of God when they're saved, but then become disowned by God when he falls away?" And your response (despite my previous request) does not wrestle with a number of Scripture passages cited or alluded to above or others like them in Scripture. Nor does it go further into Bunyan.

Granted you also doubt affirmative answers to the above paragraph's questions are representative of Scripture (as probably do I, depending on what is meant), and you cite the Prodigal Son parable as supportive of the claim that those adopted in a Christ-saving way do not finally fall away. An elected President does not cease his office when or because he "slips up" (and I think the analogy represents the Scriptures on salvation of us sinners).

Whether Paul in 2 Cor. 13:5 meant what you think he "sounds like" is another question, but it raises one issue of several that think worth articulating:

1) Was Paul in 2 Cor. 13:5 theologically and logically consistent with himself in Rom. 8:31-39? Or more broadly, is the canon of Scriptures coherent? Is a harmonization of the whole possible, even if not always understood?

2) Do true Christians utterly "fall away"/apostatize (esp. after they are truly born again) or does the falling away demonstrate the apostate was never truly a Christian, never truly born again in the first place?

A subsidiary question to # 2 above is whether, once a person is fallen away, can his or her repentance be renewed (can he or she return to being a Christian).

And what does one do with passages of Scripture that suggest a person can fall away/apostatize (alluding for example to Hebrews 6)?
​

3) How many Christians will prove to be truly Christian "at the end of the day" and how do we know who is a Christian and who is not? (I realize that around the fringes, question # 3 is notoriously difficult, but it seems part of what troubles you.) Are there people who think they are Christians, but are not born again?

And what does one think of hard cases of people we know whose salvation may be in doubt in our minds or who have dropped out of church or renounced Christ? Or is it possible a true Christian can doubt his or her salvation, yet be truly saved?
​

4) If there is a conflict between what I think must follow and what the Scripture says is true, which do I believe? I ask the question for the principle of the thing, but have in mind particularly divine sovereignty/human responsibility issues.

At this point I could give more of my opinion (or further represent my camp), but I think preferable is to phrase the questions as above in hopes they help you do more of your own homework, so to speak, though I think by now we can both agree that the Scriptures indicate that if persons are to be saved it is because Jesus paid for all their sins with no exception AND that true Christians cannot utterly fall away/apostatize, but persevere in faith and holiness even if they also sin.

I appreciate your elaborate reply, but it's getting beyond my comprehension. Maybe my depth of understanding isn't all that great, or maybe I have ADHD, but this is going way over my head!

I guess my opening post on this thread was to see if others who have read The Strait Gate feel the same way about it as I did, and if they thought that it conflicted with teachings as given to us in the scriptures. There are many denominations of Christianity which stem from different biblical teachings. The thing I'm not sure of is if the ones being emphasized by Bunyan fully represent what is taught in the bible as a whole.

 

[Look Up]

I appreciate your elaborate reply, but it's getting beyond my comprehension. Maybe my depth of understanding isn't all that great, or maybe I have ADHD, but this is going way over my head!

I guess my opening post on this thread was to see if others who have read The Strait Gate feel the same way about it as I did, and if they thought that it conflicted with teachings as given to us in the scriptures. There are many denominations of Christianity which stem from different biblical teachings. The thing I'm not sure of is if the ones being emphasized by Bunyan fully represent what is taught in the bible as a whole.

My questions # 1 through 4 arise naturally from what you have already written on this thread (which is where I derived my questions), suggesting that at some level you have already wrestled with them. Some you have also answered already, at least in part. Thus I don't believe the questions are "over your head" even if some can only be addressed tentatively (esp. # 3). What is needed is to work bit by bit, piece by piece. And that will take time. As to Bunyan, I have already offered my opinion, which appears enough for one at least for the present.

 

[Aldebaran]

My questions # 1 through 4 arise naturally from what you have already written on this thread (which is where I derived my questions), suggesting that at some level you have already wrestled with them. Some you have also answered already, at least in part. Thus I don't believe the questions are "over your head" even if some can only be addressed tentatively (esp. # 3). What is needed is to work bit by bit, piece by piece. And that will take time. As to Bunyan, I have already offered my opinion, which appears enough for one at least for the present.

Ok, let's take a look at question #3. You're asking about who proves to be Christian at the end of the day. First, on any given day, I may fail many times. Yes, that's me. But does that mean I'm not a saved person by the blood of Jesus. I have asked Him into my life and to forgive me of my sins--past and present. But is that not worth anything if I'm the one who fails? Ephesians 2:9 tells me that Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. But the words of Bunyan seems to tell me that it IS about what I've done (or not done).

 

[Look Up]

Ok, let's take a look at question #3. You're asking about who proves to be Christian at the end of the day. First, on any given day, I may fail many times. Yes, that's me. But does that mean I'm not a saved person by the blood of Jesus. I have asked Him into my life and to forgive me of my sins--past and present. But is that not worth anything if I'm the one who fails? Ephesians 2:9 tells me that Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. But the words of Bunyan seems to tell me that it IS about what I've done (or not done).

Hi Aldebaran, I am glad you are wrestling with the issues, and wrestling with them as a Christian (I sin daily too, by the way), but I'm afraid I don't entirely follow the above and I'm hard pressed to know where I don't follow you. As an aside, what I meant in question # 3 by "at the end of the day" (in quotation marks there) was something like after a great and decisive test or death or the Second Coming or the Judgement--not that this seems to be significant to your point. True Christians persevere 'till "the end of the day," demonstrating that the faith within is genuine.

Taking a stab at where I don't follow you, take the sentence beginning "But is that not worth anything ... ." First I'm not sure what the antecedent of the word "that" is--your conversion, cleansing from past and present sins, daily failures, apparent vanity of sinning as one saved by the blood of Jesus, or something else. Then I'm not sure what you mean by "not worth anything."

My best guess is that you are saying something like your post # 4 on this thread: e.g., "It seems like the idea is Christ paid for our sins and gives us salvation if we call upon Him, but it is up to us to hang onto that salvation and hope we don't let go of it during the rest of our lives." But here you may be saying a wrinkle on that theme, more or less and so to speak. And before going further, let me also mention I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Bunyan apparently claiming "it IS about what I've done (or not done)" in your last sentence of post # 11 above. What is "it"?

From whatever I can sense at this point, my fear is I will cycle back to rehashing parts of my post # 5 (which may or may not be helpful to either of us). The Bible (in the view I share) indicates both that Jesus paid for all my sins without exception and that I must fight against sin and strive to love and obey God all the days of this life even though my love and obedience do nothing to effect my forgiveness or justification (in the Pauline sense). Take it or leave it. Such is God's good pleasure.

Whether Bunyan says the same in Pilgrim's Progress may be assumed given his ecclesiastical camp, but such would have to be argued at length for our purposes, a matter I think of lower priority (for me especially given my limited energies) than asking what Bunyan's chief source the Bible says on the matter. And as an extended allegory, I'm not sure how far we can press Bunyan's piece theologically in this subject matter. The author (or is it protagonist?) "dreams a dream."

Christ can bring glory to Himself by forgiving the sins of the truly born again (because He died and rose again) and He can bring glory to Himself by granting their (our) repentance. And when Christians sin, God is not pleased, for we bear His name and sin never pleases God. Holy action pleases God, for God is at work in Christians to will and to act according to His good purpose (therefore work our your salvation with fear and trembling, cf. Phil. 2:12-13). Thus if Christ succeeded in reconciling me by His death when I was His enemy (I am a former atheist), now that I stand reconciled to God, shall He save me any less by His resurrection life (alluding to the argument in Rom 5, esp. v. 10)? Christ saves His sheep at their conversion and He saves them as Christians. And Christians are obliged to follow their Good Shepherd. And His sheep wander and stray and are brought back by the Good Shepherd.

But in this last paragraph above I have gone far enough out on a limb guessing what you mean or where you are headed.

 

[Aldebaran]

Hi Aldebaran, I am glad you are wrestling with the issues, and wrestling with them as a Christian (I sin daily too, by the way), but I'm afraid I don't entirely follow the above and I'm hard pressed to know where I don't follow you. As an aside, what I meant in question # 3 by "at the end of the day" (in quotation marks there) was something like after a great and decisive test or death or the Second Coming or the Judgement--not that this seems to be significant to your point. True Christians persevere 'till "the end of the day," demonstrating that the faith within is genuine.

Taking a stab at where I don't follow you, take the sentence beginning "But is that not worth anything ... ." First I'm not sure what the antecedent of the word "that" is--your conversion, cleansing from past and present sins, daily failures, apparent vanity of sinning as one saved by the blood of Jesus, or something else. Then I'm not sure what you mean by "not worth anything."

My best guess is that you are saying something like your post # 4 on this thread: e.g., "It seems like the idea is Christ paid for our sins and gives us salvation if we call upon Him, but it is up to us to hang onto that salvation and hope we don't let go of it during the rest of our lives." But here you may be saying a wrinkle on that theme, more or less and so to speak. And before going further, let me also mention I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Bunyan apparently claiming "it IS about what I've done (or not done)" in your last sentence of post # 11 above. What is "it"?

From whatever I can sense at this point, my fear is I will cycle back to rehashing parts of my post # 5 (which may or may not be helpful to either of us). The Bible (in the view I share) indicates both that Jesus paid for all my sins without exception and that I must fight against sin and strive to love and obey God all the days of this life even though my love and obedience do nothing to effect my forgiveness or justification (in the Pauline sense). Take it or leave it. Such is God's good pleasure.

Whether Bunyan says the same in Pilgrim's Progress may be assumed given his ecclesiastical camp, but such would have to be argued at length for our purposes, a matter I think of lower priority (for me especially given my limited energies) than asking what Bunyan's chief source the Bible says on the matter. And as an extended allegory, I'm not sure how far we can press Bunyan's piece theologically in this subject matter. The author (or is it protagonist?) "dreams a dream."

Christ can bring glory to Himself by forgiving the sins of the truly born again (because He died and rose again) and He can bring glory to Himself by granting their (our) repentance. And when Christians sin, God is not pleased, for we bear His name and sin never pleases God. Holy action pleases God, for God is at work in Christians to will and to act according to His good purpose (therefore work our your salvation with fear and trembling, cf. Phil. 2:12-13). Thus if Christ succeeded in reconciling me by His death when I was His enemy (I am a former atheist), now that I stand reconciled to God, shall He save me any less by His resurrection life (alluding to the argument in Rom 5, esp. v. 10)? Christ saves His sheep at their conversion and He saves them as Christians. And Christians are obliged to follow their Good Shepherd. And His sheep wander and stray and are brought back by the Good Shepherd.

But in this last paragraph above I have gone far enough out on a limb guessing what you mean or where you are headed.

I simply meant that if Christ died for our sins, and yet it's our own walk that we either stand or fall (which seems to be Bunyan's view), then Christ's death and resurrection would seem to have been for nothing because Bunyan appears to be saying that we're on our own after believing in Christ for our salvation.

 

[jargew]

John Bunyan helped the other loggers he worked with to the best of his potential, so his view on being a servant to others was quite in line with the teachings of the bible.
Based on the fact that he was very kind to his Ox, Babe, I assume he has a reasonable attitude towards animals as well.
However, I think John Bunyan should have cut down trees in a more environmentally conscious fashion instead of clear cutting.

 

[Aldebaran]

John Bunyan helped the other loggers he worked with to the best of his potential, so his view on being a servant to others was quite in line with the teachings of the bible.
Based on the fact that he was very kind to his Ox, Babe, I assume he has a reasonable attitude towards animals as well.
However, I think John Bunyan should have cut down trees in a more environmentally conscious fashion instead of clear cutting.

Nope, you're thinking of Paul Bunyan. I used to think they were the same as well.

 

[Look Up]

I simply meant that if Christ died for our sins, and yet it's our own walk that we either stand or fall (which seems to be Bunyan's view), then Christ's death and resurrection would seem to have been for nothing because Bunyan appears to be saying that we're on our own after believing in Christ for our salvation.

You are surely not alone in feeling left to your own devices as a Christian, though the operative word, "seem" makes all the difference.

You have already cited Rom. 8:31-39 which at the least suggests God does not abandon His sheep as orphans to fend for themselves. And there are other passages that no doubt come to mind with a little thought. God does not leave us as orphans, but gives us His Holy Spirit (John 14 & 16). "I will never leave you or forsake you" (Heb. 13:5). I had already cited from Phil 2:13--God is at work in [here, the church at Philippi] to will and to do according to His good purpose. "Fear thou not for I am with thee" (Isa. 41:10 in KJ-ese). And so on. I will not spend more time on that here; no doubt you can cite other verses. Granted the Spirit of God left Hezekiah to test him per the Chronicler, but the Christian never walks alone even if it sometimes "seems" that way.

Note also that the God who works in the Christian for sanctification (growth in holiness) also ordains means to that end. And the means sometimes are tangible, such as in the form of fellow Christians. I think here we approach a point in Pilgrim's Progress.

In that tale, protagonist Christian is helped by the exhortation and instruction of evangelist--here I mean after Christian's burden falls from his back at the foot of the cross. Christian also is refreshed at the Arbor "which the Lord of the Hill hath placed there for the refreshment of the spirits of Pilgrims." Christian also receives instruction and encouragement and armor at the Palace Beautiful, companionship nearly the whole way in Faithful and then Hopeful, the whip and assorted help from Shining Ones, is kept from dispatching himself in Doubting Castle by Hopeful, is encouraged by the vision of the Celestial City using the Shepherd's looking glass, receives encouragement and exhortation from the roll at his bosom (the Scriptures), and so on. In the Valley of the Shadow of Death Christian recalls that God is with him as Psalm 23 says. After winning the battle with Apollyon, Christian thanks God for His help in that deliverance (and why thank God if He is not there and not helpful?). Hopeful later tells Christian that even the "waters [of death] are no sign that God hath forsaken you."

If Christian's trials are real and he is engaged directly in them, why does such difficulty or the use of means in facing difficulty imply God is not with Christian and in all those events? I believe Bunyan would say and has implied (as above and more) that God was with Christian the whole time.

Jesus in the NT curiously prays not that His sheep would be taken out of the world, but that His Father would keep them (1) in His name and (2) from the Evil One (John 17:11, 15). And Paul exhorts the believers in Galatia in summary form to continue in the faith, for "through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22, arguably a major theme in Acts). Is Pilgrim's Progress thematically so different? God is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before His presence, etc. (Jude 24). God is near, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. On such basis then, the Christian has a duty to follow Jesus and walk in His steps.

 

[dms1972]

I was reading a book by John Bunyan called the Strait Gate that someone referred to me (available free online) and it left me depressed. It seemed like his view throughout the book is that most people are going to hell, including Christians who think they are saved. He seems to think that most Christians are going to hell. Hardly uplifting!

I've read Pilgrim's Progress part 1 and 2 and enjoyed them, so I'm surprised to feel otherwise by the Strait Gate.

I have only glanced at it online, so I am not sure. I think the subject should be tackled in a balanced way. On the one hand their is the sin of presumption, but you don't want to go to the other extreme of despair. There needs to be emphasis on Hope, to balance what he says about difficulty.

Josef Pieper (who is a Thomist theologian) writes very well on that and the errors of presumption and despair, see his book Faith, Hope, Love.

 

[Aldebaran]

You are surely not alone in feeling left to your own devices as a Christian, though the operative word, "seem" makes all the difference.

You have already cited Rom. 8:31-39 which at the least suggests God does not abandon His sheep as orphans to fend for themselves. And there are other passages that no doubt come to mind with a little thought. God does not leave us as orphans, but gives us His Holy Spirit (John 14 & 16). "I will never leave you or forsake you" (Heb. 13:5). I had already cited from Phil 2:13--God is at work in [here, the church at Philippi] to will and to do according to His good purpose. "Fear thou not for I am with thee" (Isa. 41:10 in KJ-ese). And so on. I will not spend more time on that here; no doubt you can cite other verses. Granted the Spirit of God left Hezekiah to test him per the Chronicler, but the Christian never walks alone even if it sometimes "seems" that way.

I wasn't referring to what I felt, but what Bunyan was saying.

Note also that the God who works in the Christian for sanctification (growth in holiness) also ordains means to that end. And the means sometimes are tangible, such as in the form of fellow Christians. I think here we approach a point in Pilgrim's Progress.

In that tale, protagonist Christian is helped by the exhortation and instruction of evangelist--here I mean after Christian's burden falls from his back at the foot of the cross. Christian also is refreshed at the Arbor "which the Lord of the Hill hath placed there for the refreshment of the spirits of Pilgrims." Christian also receives instruction and encouragement and armor at the Palace Beautiful, companionship nearly the whole way in Faithful and then Hopeful, the whip and assorted help from Shining Ones, is kept from dispatching himself in Doubting Castle by Hopeful, is encouraged by the vision of the Celestial City using the Shepherd's looking glass, receives encouragement and exhortation from the roll at his bosom (the Scriptures), and so on. In the Valley of the Shadow of Death Christian recalls that God is with him as Psalm 23 says. After winning the battle with Apollyon, Christian thanks God for His help in that deliverance (and why thank God if He is not there and not helpful?). Hopeful later tells Christian that even the "waters [of death] are no sign that God hath forsaken you."

If Christian's trials are real and he is engaged directly in them, why does such difficulty or the use of means in facing difficulty imply God is not with Christian and in all those events? I believe Bunyan would say and has implied (as above and more) that God was with Christian the whole time.

Jesus in the NT curiously prays not that His sheep would be taken out of the world, but that His Father would keep them (1) in His name and (2) from the Evil One (John 17:11, 15). And Paul exhorts the believers in Galatia in summary form to continue in the faith, for "through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22, arguably a major theme in Acts). Is Pilgrim's Progress thematically so different? God is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before His presence, etc. (Jude 24). God is near, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. On such basis then, the Christian has a duty to follow Jesus and walk in His steps.

I agree with you about Pilgrim's Progress. I enjoyed that book. It's the Straight Gate that seemed to have a different theme and conclusion to it.

 

[Aldebaran]

I have only glanced at it online, so I am not sure. I think the subject should be tackled in a balanced way. On the one hand their is the sin of presumption, but you don't want to go to the other extreme of despair. There needs to be emphasis on Hope, to balance what he says about difficulty.

Josef Pieper (who is a Thomist theologian) writes very well on that and the errors of presumption and despair, see his book Faith, Hope, Love.

I've only seen the online version as well, although I'm pretty sure it's the same as the original. I actually saved the PDF of it. It's only 107KB in size. I read a good portion (too depressing to read all) of it and it lead me to dispair. Then I pick up the bible and start reading and then all the points Bunyan made which lead me to dispair come right back again. The last thing I need is dispair when reading the bible.

 

[dms1972]

what were you reading in the Bible?

Scripture is to awaken, or impart Hope in Christ. Its not something we can work up, but we can ask for it pray for it, and meditate on those verses that are to encourage us and promise God's help.

I know what despair can be like, it took me a quite a while to learn to feed on the scriptures, and I still have difficult times.

Psalm 43:5 Why are you in despair, my soul? Why are you disturbed within me? Hope in God, because I will praise him once again, since his presence saves me and he is my God.

Psalm 40:1-2 I waited patiently for the LORD to help me, and he turned to me and heard my cry. He lifted me out of the pit of despair, out of the mud and the mire. He set my feet on solid ground and steadied me as I walked along.