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WHAT DO YOU THINK? New Jerusalem

Dathen

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Revelation 21

The New Jerusalem

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man's measurement, which the angel was using. 18The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst. 21The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass. 22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

ISAIAH 65:17-25

New Heavens and a New Earth

17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain
or bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent's food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,"
says the LORD.


Beside the definite, and the things mentioned above, what do you think the new jerusalem will be like. What do you look foward too? Who do you want to speak to??
 

Dathen

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I personally look foward to this promise:

Isaiah 65:21-22

21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the works of their hands.
 
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tall73

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Alright, yet another use of my out clause in my farewell thread. Perhaps I should just skip the farewell thread.

The time described by Isaiah I do not believe is the new earth. As the texts you highlight point out, it certainly is not OUR conception of the new earth!

It is a time of ideal conditions brought about by covenant obedience that was open to the Israelites after their restoration from captivity. Before they had gone into captivity and suffered the curses of God under the covenant. These included famine, war, wild beasts attacking them, pestilence, etc.

Now he says that through their adherence to the covenant they can have a reversal of that condition so that the whole earthh will be renewed.

He uses very poetic language to convey just how good it will be.

But they didn't obtain it. Therefore John, as he often does, takes this OT imagery and reshapes it in the book of Revelation to show that

a. The wicked earth will receive the covenant curses (for instance the horsement involve war, famine, wild beasts of the earth, etc. all parts of the covenant curses)

b. The righteous will have a truly new heaven and earth and will be free from all death. God will be with them and be their God. The covenant will be completely fulfilled.

Therefore he takes the good news of Isaiah and makes it even better. The promise is fulfilled but in a much grander way. Now instead of just living as long as a tree there will now be no death at all:

Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."


Therefore Revelation is the culmination of the covenant theme, God and man are re-united and man enjoys the full blessing of God through His presence.
 
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tall73

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Correct, the new earth.

As to it being an assumption, notice the immediate context:

Isa 64:4 From of old no one has heard or perceived by the ear, no eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him.
Isa 64:5 You meet him who joyfully works righteousness, those who remember you in your ways. Behold, you were angry, and we sinned; in our sins we have been a long time, and shall we be saved?
Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Isa 64:7 There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Isa 64:9 Be not so terribly angry, O LORD, and remember not iniquity forever. Behold, please look, we are all your people.
Isa 64:10 Your holy cities have become a wilderness; Zion has become a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.
Isa 64:11 Our holy and beautiful house, where our fathers praised you, has been burned by fire, and all our pleasant places have become ruins.
Isa 64:12 Will you restrain yourself at these things, O LORD? Will you keep silent, and afflict us so terribly?
sa 65:1 I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me; I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me. I said, "Here am I, here am I," to a nation that was not called by my name.
Isa 65:2 I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, following their own devices;
Isa 65:3 a people who provoke me to my face continually, sacrificing in gardens and making offerings on bricks;

Isa 65:4 who sit in tombs, and spend the night in secret places; who eat pig's flesh, and broth of tainted meat is in their vessels;
Isa 65:5 who say, "Keep to yourself, do not come near me, for I am too holy for you." These are a smoke in my nostrils, a fire that burns all the day.
Isa 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: "I will not keep silent, but I will repay; I will indeed repay into their bosom
Isa 65:7 both your iniquities and your fathers' iniquities together, says the LORD; because they made offerings on the mountains and insulted me on the hills, I will measure into their bosom payment for their former deeds."
Isa 65:8 Thus says the LORD: "As the new wine is found in the cluster, and they say, 'Do not destroy it, for there is a blessing in it,' so I will do for my servants' sake, and not destroy them all.
Isa 65:9 I will bring forth offspring from Jacob, and from Judah possessors of my mountains; my chosen shall possess it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Isa 65:10 Sharon shall become a pasture for flocks, and the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down, for my people who have sought me.
Isa 65:11 But you who forsake the LORD, who forget my holy mountain, who set a table for Fortune and fill cups of mixed wine for Destiny,
Isa 65:12 I will destine you to the sword, and all of you shall bow down to the slaughter, because, when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not listen, but you did what was evil in my eyes and chose what I did not delight in."
Isa 65:13 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, my servants shall eat, but you shall be hungry; behold, my servants shall drink, but you shall be thirsty; behold, my servants shall rejoice, but you shall be put to shame;
Isa 65:14 behold, my servants shall sing for gladness of heart, but you shall cry out for pain of heart and shall wail for breaking of spirit.
Isa 65:15 You shall leave your name to my chosen for a curse, and the Lord GOD will put you to death, but his servants he will call by another name.
Isa 65:16 So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hidden from my eyes.


The whole context is

- Jerusalem and its sins
- God's plans to bring back a remnant
- God's plan to propser the remnant among Jacob and Judah after the captivity, but to curse the otheres.

The language of Isaiah therefore describes an ideal time after the restoration from captivity, but hints at the real new earth to come. While John recalls the promise of Isaiah but describes the real new earth to come.

In some ways it seems similar to Isaiah's weaving of the story of Satan in with the story of the king of Babylon, or the weaving of Ezekiel of the story of Satan, repleat with eden references, etc., into the story of the king of Tyre.

He is describing a restoration and compares it to the final restoration.
 
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tall73

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Now as we have looked at the context we can note the parallels between this passage and the covenant curses and blessings. The covenant curses and blessing are played out all throughout the Scriptures and appear often in the imagery used.

Here is the text in Leviticus outlining the covenant curses and blessings:

Lev 26:1 "You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the LORD your God.
Lev 26:2 You shall keep my Sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
Lev 26:3 "If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them,
Lev 26:4 then I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
Lev 26:5 Your threshing shall last to the time of the grape harvest, and the grape harvest shall last to the time for sowing. And you shall eat your bread to the full and dwell in your land securely.
Lev 26:6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid. And I will remove harmful beasts from the land, and the sword shall not go through your land.
Lev 26:7 You shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
Lev 26:8 Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall chase ten thousand, and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
Lev 26:9 I will turn to you and make you fruitful and multiply you and will confirm my covenant with you.
Lev 26:10 You shall eat old store long kept, and you shall clear out the old to make way for the new.
Lev 26:11 I will make my dwelling among you, and my soul shall not abhor you.
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you and will be your God, and you shall be my people.
Lev 26:13 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves. And I have broken the bars of your yoke and made you walk erect.
Lev 26:14 "But if you will not listen to me and will not do all these commandments,
Lev 26:15 if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,
Lev 26:16 then I will do this to you: I will visit you with panic, with wasting disease and fever that consume the eyes and make the heart ache. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
Lev 26:17 I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down before your enemies. Those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee when none pursues you.
Lev 26:18 And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins,
Lev 26:19 and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze.
Lev 26:20 And your strength shall be spent in vain, for your land shall not yield its increase, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit.
Lev 26:21 "Then if you walk contrary to me and will not listen to me, I will continue striking you, sevenfold for your sins.
Lev 26:22 And I will let loose the wild beasts against you, which shall bereave you of your children and destroy your livestock and make you few in number, so that your roads shall be deserted.
Lev 26:23 "And if by this discipline you are not turned to me but walk contrary to me,
Lev 26:24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I myself will strike you sevenfold for your sins.
Lev 26:25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall execute vengeance for the covenant. And if you gather within your cities, I will send pestilence among you, and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
Lev 26:26 When I break your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in a single oven and shall dole out your bread again by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied.
Lev 26:27 "But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me,
Lev 26:28 then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins.
Lev 26:29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
Lev 26:30 And I will destroy your high places and cut down your incense altars and cast your dead bodies upon the dead bodies of your idols, and my soul will abhor you.
Lev 26:31 And I will lay your cities waste and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your pleasing aromas.
Lev 26:32 And I myself will devastate the land, so that your enemies who settle in it shall be appalled at it.
Lev 26:33 And I will scatter you among the nations, and I will unsheathe the sword after you, and your land shall be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Lev 26:34 "Then the land shall enjoy its Sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its Sabbaths.
Lev 26:35 As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest that it did not have on your Sabbaths when you were dwelling in it.
Lev 26:36 And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies. The sound of a driven leaf shall put them to flight, and they shall flee as one flees from the sword, and they shall fall when none pursues.
Lev 26:37 They shall stumble over one another, as if to escape a sword, though none pursues. And you shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
Lev 26:38 And you shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
Lev 26:39 And those of you who are left shall rot away in your enemies' lands because of their iniquity, and also because of the iniquities of their fathers they shall rot away like them.
Lev 26:40 "But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery that they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me,
Lev 26:41 so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies--if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity,
Lev 26:42 then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.
Lev 26:43 But the land shall be abandoned by them and enjoy its Sabbaths while it lies desolate without them, and they shall make amends for their iniquity, because they spurned my rules and their soul abhorred my statutes.
Lev 26:44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not spurn them, neither will I abhor them so as to destroy them utterly and break my covenant with them, for I am the LORD their God.
Lev 26:45 But I will for their sake remember the covenant with their forefathers, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD."
Lev 26:46 These are the statutes and rules and laws that the LORD made between him and the people of Israel through Moses on Mount Sinai.


Now that you have read the points above, note the similarities to our previous context for your passage.

The people were in captivity, away from their land as promised, due to disobedience. They suffered from beasts, pestilence, etc. They suffered from famine. It mentions eating their own children which happened in the siege of Jerusalem. These curses were carried out on Israel throughout their long history.

But it also speaks of blessings that could have been theirs. Health, food with no one to take it away from them, etc.

And it also spoke of restoration if they prayed and cried out to God and forsook their wickedness. That is what we see above in the context of your passage and in the main passage.



Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.
Isa 65:19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.
Isa 65:20 No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.

Health, not killed by sword or famine or pestilence, which were of the curses.

Isa 65:21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Food not taken by others, which was one of the curses.

Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them.
Isa 65:24 Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain," says the LORD.

The wild beasts will not destroy them or their livestock, which was one of the curses.

The passage then is a promise of the covenant blessings to those returning from exile in language they were familiar with.
 
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Dathen

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Ahhhhh:thumbsup: . I see know. But is it possible that this is an example of duel prophecy. Meaning for the Isralites as you said, but then yet again for the new earth.

Such as when Jesus said about the destruction of Jerusalem, to the end of time in Matthew 24.. Is it considerable of duel prophecy??????
 
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tall73

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Ahhhhh:thumbsup: . I see know. But is it possible that this is an example of duel prophecy. Meaning for the Isralites as you said, but then yet again for the new earth.

Such as when Jesus said about the destruction of Jerusalem, to the end of time in Matthew 24.. Is it considerable of duel prophecy??????

Well I suppose you could take it that way. But then you have the problem of people dying where Revelation and other places say they don't die or live eternally.
 
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Dathen

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Isaiah 65:20

20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.

I'm guessing that's a text you're referring to there. It's always been a challenge for me to understand, but I assumed that it was just a symbolic way to describe the pleasures of it.

Though your theory really fits that text. I suppose some points are duel prophecy, and some arn't!!!?? Or even it all is for Israel???? What do other people think??? (Apart from me and tall)

The part that's highlighted green could be the people in NEW Jerusalem, looking down and speaking of those that were in hell. They didn't reach 100 in the new earth so they are cursed, or dead, non existant.

Like the text that says "they will be considered least in the kingdom of God"
Of course we know everyone is equal in Gods kingdom, except God, so that text all refers to the people in the lake of fire, being considered least!!!!
 
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