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The body may be consumed, but that part were God resides, that being the soul, that lives on never to die.
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WHAT, do you think, is hell?
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SoldierOfTheKing
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k2svpete
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There is no immortal soul, this is a false doctrine that has permeated Christianity over time without regard for what scripture has to say on the matter.
The understanding of this is fundamental to the OP. Hell, sheol, etc. mean grave. To contest otherwise is to disagree with the meaning of the words. We are told time and again, from the OT onwards that the faithful are sleeping, waiting to be resurrected into the kingdom of God when that is established. They are not in 'heaven'. Similarly, when people die, they do just that. The scriptures do not contend that people go to a place of torment where there souls are forever tortured as that is not consistent with teachings regarding soul. Soul simply means life.
Let us not ignore the message that Jesus taught for 3 1/2 years. The gospel. It is beautiful in its simplicity and it fulfills the promises made to Abraham way back when. This being that the kingdom of God is to be established on this earth with Jesus Christ as the head and the saints governing. A just and merciful ruler who will grant immortality to those who turn from their sinful ways and believe in Him and take on the characteristics of God.
The understanding of this is fundamental to the OP. Hell, sheol, etc. mean grave. To contest otherwise is to disagree with the meaning of the words. We are told time and again, from the OT onwards that the faithful are sleeping, waiting to be resurrected into the kingdom of God when that is established. They are not in 'heaven'. Similarly, when people die, they do just that. The scriptures do not contend that people go to a place of torment where there souls are forever tortured as that is not consistent with teachings regarding soul. Soul simply means life.
Let us not ignore the message that Jesus taught for 3 1/2 years. The gospel. It is beautiful in its simplicity and it fulfills the promises made to Abraham way back when. This being that the kingdom of God is to be established on this earth with Jesus Christ as the head and the saints governing. A just and merciful ruler who will grant immortality to those who turn from their sinful ways and believe in Him and take on the characteristics of God.
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Orthodoxy would have us believe that "hell" is a place represented by four seperate terms. They lump in Gehenna, Hades, Sheol, and the Lake of fire. However, if a student is interested in the truth he will have to research the original languages at some point. I believe that Gehenna could be an allusion to the coming Lake of fire- but to suggest that hades , sheol are the same as the lake of fire is ludicrous. Hades is translated into hell but the Lake of fire is NEVER
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Hell is a singular term that orthodoxy uses for 4 or 5 distinctly different terms. The lake of fire, which is never translated into "hell" is not yet in existence and is called the second death. My understanding is that sheol and hades are the abode of the first death- which is where we all will go. (re: ecc 9:10). Hades will not last forever- in Revelations it says that death and hades are cast into the lake of fire- this is the second death, the lake of fire..... I believe Jesus' teaching on Gehenna could be an allusion to the coming Lake of Fire but it would be dishonest to suggest that the lake of fire and Hades are the same thing.
Now. The lake of fire has a clear beginning. It also must have an end unlike what most believe. The "aionios punishment" ascribed to the lake of fire is not eternal- by the very definition of the root words here. "aion" in the koine greek is the noun most often translated "age"- the adjective form is "aionios" which literally means "pertaining to the respective age"- so anything "aionios" can only last as long as its respective age does. And although the early translators fumbled around with this term and try to juxtapose it wherever they found room for it- an honest student can quickly come to the realization that there is no room for this faulty translation. The epitome of proof of this is the very presence of the plural form of aion which is aionon/ aionas. If aionios means eternal then aion must mean eternity and therefore aionon/aionas would mean "eternities." In revelation several verses are translated into "forever and ever." But that is from "aionastonaionon" which is literally "ages of the ages." Titus 1:2 says ".....hope of eternal life (zoe aionios), which God, who does not lie, promises before the (pro cronon aionion)(before eonian times) literally..... But you see the translators have a problem here because they want to translate aionios as eternal in the first part of the verse but can't in the second because you can't have "before eternal times" can you.... The consistent and honest rendering is "....hope of eonian life, which God, who does not lie, promises before eonian times."
This also complies with the references to "the coming aion" the conclusion of this aion" which is rendered that Jesus is talking about the end of this world- but it is aion here- and it would sound akward if he was talking about the end of this eternity wouldn't it? also the "consummation of the aionon"- not eternities, and the list goes on.
But, most of us are not interested in upsetting the apple cart even if we compromise the truth..... If anyone would like to challenge my premise on this please feel free to do so.
God bless.
Now. The lake of fire has a clear beginning. It also must have an end unlike what most believe. The "aionios punishment" ascribed to the lake of fire is not eternal- by the very definition of the root words here. "aion" in the koine greek is the noun most often translated "age"- the adjective form is "aionios" which literally means "pertaining to the respective age"- so anything "aionios" can only last as long as its respective age does. And although the early translators fumbled around with this term and try to juxtapose it wherever they found room for it- an honest student can quickly come to the realization that there is no room for this faulty translation. The epitome of proof of this is the very presence of the plural form of aion which is aionon/ aionas. If aionios means eternal then aion must mean eternity and therefore aionon/aionas would mean "eternities." In revelation several verses are translated into "forever and ever." But that is from "aionastonaionon" which is literally "ages of the ages." Titus 1:2 says ".....hope of eternal life (zoe aionios), which God, who does not lie, promises before the (pro cronon aionion)(before eonian times) literally..... But you see the translators have a problem here because they want to translate aionios as eternal in the first part of the verse but can't in the second because you can't have "before eternal times" can you.... The consistent and honest rendering is "....hope of eonian life, which God, who does not lie, promises before eonian times."
This also complies with the references to "the coming aion" the conclusion of this aion" which is rendered that Jesus is talking about the end of this world- but it is aion here- and it would sound akward if he was talking about the end of this eternity wouldn't it? also the "consummation of the aionon"- not eternities, and the list goes on.
But, most of us are not interested in upsetting the apple cart even if we compromise the truth..... If anyone would like to challenge my premise on this please feel free to do so.
God bless.
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Hell is a singular term that orthodoxy uses for 4 or 5 distinctly different terms. The lake of fire, which is never translated into "hell" is not yet in existence and is called the second death. My understanding is that sheol and hades are the abode of the first death- which is where we all will go. (re: ecc 9:10). Hades will not last forever- in Revelations it says that death and hades are cast into the lake of fire- this is the second death, the lake of fire..... I believe Jesus' teaching on Gehenna could be an allusion to the coming Lake of Fire but it would be dishonest to suggest that the lake of fire and Hades are the same thing.
Now. The lake of fire has a clear beginning. It also must have an end unlike what most believe. The "aionios punishment" ascribed to the lake of fire is not eternal- by the very definition of the root words here. "aion" in the koine greek is the noun most often translated "age"- the adjective form is "aionios" which literally means "pertaining to the respective age"- so anything "aionios" can only last as long as its respective age does. And although the early translators fumbled around with this term and try to juxtapose it wherever they found room for it- an honest student can quickly come to the realization that there is no room for this faulty translation. The epitome of proof of this is the very presence of the plural form of aion which is aionon/ aionas. If aionios means eternal then aion must mean eternity and therefore aionon/aionas would mean "eternities." In revelation several verses are translated into "forever and ever." But that is from "aionastonaionon" which is literally "ages of the ages." Titus 1:2 says ".....hope of eternal life (zoe aionios), which God, who does not lie, promises before the (pro cronon aionion)(before eonian times) literally..... But you see the translators have a problem here because they want to translate aionios as eternal in the first part of the verse but can't in the second because you can't have "before eternal times" can you.... The consistent and honest rendering is "....hope of eonian life, which God, who does not lie, promises before eonian times."
This also complies with the references to "the coming aion" the conclusion of this aion" which is rendered that Jesus is talking about the end of this world- but it is aion here- and it would sound akward if he was talking about the end of this eternity wouldn't it? also the "consummation of the aionon"- not eternities, and the list goes on.
But, most of us are not interested in upsetting the apple cart even if we compromise the truth..... If anyone would like to challenge my premise on this please feel free to do so.
God bless.
Now. The lake of fire has a clear beginning. It also must have an end unlike what most believe. The "aionios punishment" ascribed to the lake of fire is not eternal- by the very definition of the root words here. "aion" in the koine greek is the noun most often translated "age"- the adjective form is "aionios" which literally means "pertaining to the respective age"- so anything "aionios" can only last as long as its respective age does. And although the early translators fumbled around with this term and try to juxtapose it wherever they found room for it- an honest student can quickly come to the realization that there is no room for this faulty translation. The epitome of proof of this is the very presence of the plural form of aion which is aionon/ aionas. If aionios means eternal then aion must mean eternity and therefore aionon/aionas would mean "eternities." In revelation several verses are translated into "forever and ever." But that is from "aionastonaionon" which is literally "ages of the ages." Titus 1:2 says ".....hope of eternal life (zoe aionios), which God, who does not lie, promises before the (pro cronon aionion)(before eonian times) literally..... But you see the translators have a problem here because they want to translate aionios as eternal in the first part of the verse but can't in the second because you can't have "before eternal times" can you.... The consistent and honest rendering is "....hope of eonian life, which God, who does not lie, promises before eonian times."
This also complies with the references to "the coming aion" the conclusion of this aion" which is rendered that Jesus is talking about the end of this world- but it is aion here- and it would sound akward if he was talking about the end of this eternity wouldn't it? also the "consummation of the aionon"- not eternities, and the list goes on.
But, most of us are not interested in upsetting the apple cart even if we compromise the truth..... If anyone would like to challenge my premise on this please feel free to do so.
God bless.
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This is just my opinion...
When we die, I think we'll meet every soul we were exposed to on earth. Everyone we had an influence on, both good and bad. If our influence was good, we will feel that joy. If our influence was bad, we will feel their pain ...the pain we inflicted. In defining what "bad" is, what we do with intent to others is far worse that what we do to ourselves. If we intended to inflict pain, it will hurt and be with us always. That's my interpretation of hell, which is the knowledge of evil.
When we die, I think we'll meet every soul we were exposed to on earth. Everyone we had an influence on, both good and bad. If our influence was good, we will feel that joy. If our influence was bad, we will feel their pain ...the pain we inflicted. In defining what "bad" is, what we do with intent to others is far worse that what we do to ourselves. If we intended to inflict pain, it will hurt and be with us always. That's my interpretation of hell, which is the knowledge of evil.
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Gareth
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Although the scripture reads true, in context it reads in a different light. We can't take this scripture and try to make it fit something it doesn't. The whole point of the scripture when read in context is about serving God with a pure heart. Death is an unfortunate inevitability that happens to us all. In Israel's case God would not bless them if they refused his guidance. Look at verse 4 for example. Who do all souls belong to? Then look from verse 5 on to 20. The context of the scripture gives a totally different meaning when read in full. All souls sin. But there are greater sins that God holds an accounting for and for that reason the soul or person that commits them will be answerable to God.
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Gareth
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Don't worry we all do it.
Now are the things mentioned, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna and the Lake of Fire real physical places? Or are they pictorial of something else? For example the description of the Lake of Fire is found in Revelation. Certain things are at various times thrown into this lake of fire. Some conclude this is Hell. Is it? Scripture reads true when it says Satan will be thrown into it after he has tried to mislead mankind for the final time.
But who are his bed-fellows in the Lake of Fire? Revelation 20:10 states that before Satan is thrown in there, the False Prophet and the Wild Beast were already there. Are these real entities or are they symbolising something else? What do you think? Added to this, after Satan is thrown there Death and Hades are also thrown there. These last two things are not persons, are they? They don't feel or think like real people do nor do they feel pain or suffering. They are states or conditions not real as in flesh and blood. Satan however is real as a supernatural entity. Yet he is thrown into something that holds other things that are not physically existing.
Added to this that God is love, do you really think it is in God's heart to torment Satan for eternity? Rather then is not this Lake of Fire a symbol of everlasting destruction for once something goes in there it never comes out. If the Lake of Fire was real would not Jesus of put Satan there instead of the Abyss? No, the Lake of Fire is a symbolism of God erasing something forever so that those things like death or Satan will never afflict faithful mankind again. What do you understand?
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Except that there is a clear punishment in a duration of time. To be destroying..... or to destroy signifies a singular event and is not the same as punishment or chastisement. Perhaps satan is destroyed there after his purpose is served but I'm more concerned with the population of people being chastised there.
One important point is that Death is the last enemy abolished before all is subjected to God that he would be all in all (1st corinthians 15 24+). The lake of fire is a death..... Death cannot and will not last forever. It is "aionios" punishment which is the adjective for "aion." If there is no more "aionon" (ages) there can, by definition, be no more "aionios" anything. That's why the Bible says all shall be vivified, reconciled, saved, because the very act of vivifying all nullifies death.....
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are we all really so fantastical to believe in such a fantastical place?
do we have proof hell exists?
why should one believe it exists without proof?
Isn't believing in imaginary things a form of mental illness? Some would agree.
do we have proof hell exists?
why should one believe it exists without proof?
Isn't believing in imaginary things a form of mental illness? Some would agree.
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Gareth
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For people to be chastised in hell they have to be alive do they not? You can hardly chastise someone if they're unconscious can you. For this idea of chastisement to work the human has to exist in some form i.e. as an immortal soul. However the Bible is clear that when we die we cease to exist. When Adam fell from perfection in Eden did he and Eve go to a hell? What did God tell him would happen to him? He was going back to the ground and nowhere else. His soul he got from God when God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.
If hell does exist then God must of made it. But this raises a disturbing question. Did God know man was going to fall and for that reason had to be tormented for his failure? Where is a God of love in this? When the people of Canaan put children through a tunnel of fire as a sacrifice why did God find this abhorrent when he allegedly had already made something far worse?
If only the bad people go to hell who decides who is actually bad? Many people have lived over time. Many never knew the true God so if they did bad things they did so out of ignorance, and if given the chance to live to God's standards might of been good people rather than bad. So when they died in their ignorance, where did they go? If man has an immortal soul those who are good go where? Not to heaven because before Jesus no-one had ascended to heaven from human flesh and blood.
So you might begin to see a paradox. Who said we have an immortal soul? Can they prove it? Abel was the first to be murdered on the earth. Where is his soul now? It simply according to scripture has ceased to exist as have all the souls that have existed. If the man Adam never fell from God favour he would be alive today as would be his progeny.
Why would God torment Satan forever? He has given that one plenty of time to prove his challenge to God and he will fail. When the final test on mankind is completed and Satan's challenge has been thoroughly defeated he will have sentence pronounced over him. As a mortal being he will be put to death. This is justice for all of the injustice he and his hordes have caused. Why would God seek revenge by tormenting Satan for eternity? He is better than Satan in all respects is he not?
If hell does exist then God must of made it. But this raises a disturbing question. Did God know man was going to fall and for that reason had to be tormented for his failure? Where is a God of love in this? When the people of Canaan put children through a tunnel of fire as a sacrifice why did God find this abhorrent when he allegedly had already made something far worse?
If only the bad people go to hell who decides who is actually bad? Many people have lived over time. Many never knew the true God so if they did bad things they did so out of ignorance, and if given the chance to live to God's standards might of been good people rather than bad. So when they died in their ignorance, where did they go? If man has an immortal soul those who are good go where? Not to heaven because before Jesus no-one had ascended to heaven from human flesh and blood.
So you might begin to see a paradox. Who said we have an immortal soul? Can they prove it? Abel was the first to be murdered on the earth. Where is his soul now? It simply according to scripture has ceased to exist as have all the souls that have existed. If the man Adam never fell from God favour he would be alive today as would be his progeny.
Why would God torment Satan forever? He has given that one plenty of time to prove his challenge to God and he will fail. When the final test on mankind is completed and Satan's challenge has been thoroughly defeated he will have sentence pronounced over him. As a mortal being he will be put to death. This is justice for all of the injustice he and his hordes have caused. Why would God seek revenge by tormenting Satan for eternity? He is better than Satan in all respects is he not?
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
In this case soul means person not the spirit of that person and you will notice that all have sinned and all can will and do in fact die. Christians die just like everyone else. This has nothing to do with the so called hell.
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SoldierOfTheKing
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Soul Searcher said:
That's just the point. A soul is a person. People to not have souls, they are souls.
Soul Searcher said:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16
Christians don't die; they only sleep.
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
1 Thessalonians 4:13,14
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k2svpete
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I think both of you are on the same track, just a difference of terminology. Incidentally, I agree with you. 'Perish', as given in John 3:16 is not the same as dying. Each of us have our alloted time and then our body dies to be broken back down to dust.
However, upon Christ's return, our bodies are resurrected. Our mind is as if it has been sleeping since our death and is restored.
However, upon Christ's return, our bodies are resurrected. Our mind is as if it has been sleeping since our death and is restored.
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
We are both body and spirit. Our spirit is what is said to live on and while it is joined with the body the body is a living soul. The issue is clouded in the translations from Greek in the NT as soul is used more like spirit and confuses many.
Our bodies are not resurected, they return to dust from where they came, our spirit returns to God from where it came. Each and every one of us.
Our bodies are not resurected, they return to dust from where they came, our spirit returns to God from where it came. Each and every one of us.
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LightSeaker
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Agreed. That's because our souls are an activity of God. God dwells within. That place of within is within our souls.
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JoeNah
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I just logged on to this thread. I haven't the foggiest idea who has responded and said what, nor how many pages of answers there are. I DON'T WANT ANYONE TO GO TO HELL! I WOULD BE GLORIOUSLY THRILLED AND ELATED IF EVERYONE GOT INTO HEAVEN! I honestly believe that all of us who believe in a literal lake of fire, don't want anyone to go there!
The Bible talks about a Lake of Fire! Jesus talked about the righteous dead being in a separate place from the unrighteous dead, and those in each place could view the other (Luke 16:19-31) He made it very plain that there wasn't any possible way for the residents in either place to be able to pass to the other. Yes, it is a parable, but I don't think Jesus would have wasted His valuable time on something this important if Hell was not a real place, and all that happened at death was a cessation of existence.
If I got to Heaven and found out that I was wrong, all along, and somehow EVERYONE made it into Heaven, I would be VERY HAPPY! I WOULD BE JUBILANT! After I had turned a few thousand cartwheels in celebration, I would then sit down somewhere, and invite all who would want to take part, to line up, and I would then proceed to very gladly and jubilantly kiss a certain part of their anatomy.
But we're not there yet. I would rather preach, and warn others about the consequences of not asking Jesus to do in their hearts, that which only He can do, AND WANTS VERY MUCH TO DO, and tell them that eternity in a literal LAKE OF FIRE (Revelation 20:15) is that consequence, and be wrong, rather than proclaim that there isn't any such thing as Hell, and be wrong.
The Bible talks about a Lake of Fire! Jesus talked about the righteous dead being in a separate place from the unrighteous dead, and those in each place could view the other (Luke 16:19-31) He made it very plain that there wasn't any possible way for the residents in either place to be able to pass to the other. Yes, it is a parable, but I don't think Jesus would have wasted His valuable time on something this important if Hell was not a real place, and all that happened at death was a cessation of existence.
If I got to Heaven and found out that I was wrong, all along, and somehow EVERYONE made it into Heaven, I would be VERY HAPPY! I WOULD BE JUBILANT! After I had turned a few thousand cartwheels in celebration, I would then sit down somewhere, and invite all who would want to take part, to line up, and I would then proceed to very gladly and jubilantly kiss a certain part of their anatomy.
But we're not there yet. I would rather preach, and warn others about the consequences of not asking Jesus to do in their hearts, that which only He can do, AND WANTS VERY MUCH TO DO, and tell them that eternity in a literal LAKE OF FIRE (Revelation 20:15) is that consequence, and be wrong, rather than proclaim that there isn't any such thing as Hell, and be wrong.
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