WHAT, do you think, is hell?

[Zaac]

I'm very intrigued by a book called Martin Zender Goes To Hell, which challenge most Christian doctrine using Scripture.

Here's what I find a little peculiar:
Some Christians seem to shrug off the fact that nonbelievers burn in a hell for eternity where they are tortured for ever. It doesn't seem to bother them.
Some even get excited, a kind "When my dad comes home, he's going to beat you up" revenge fantasy.
I have read about how one's flesh is torn off, only to grow back and be torn off again.
We have flesh in helL? We have bodies, just like on Earth? So, what is that thing decaying in the ground?

So why are you giving more credence to what's in that book than in God's word?

I think hell is simply cutting yourself off from others in selfishness. In the afterlife, it is a burnishing off of the things that prevent you from entering a realm of love, because selfishness, anger, and hatred won't allow it. However, I think hell is a place of healing, preparing you to be able to be one with God.

Then again, I believe that all people will eventually be returned to God, and we will all be one. To someone with a revenge fantasy, that would be a huge downer, making heaven their own hell.

Unfortunately that's not true. It's a nice thought, but it ain't true. A Holy God will put those who reject His Son ultimately in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Beanieboy]

So why are you giving more credence to what's in that book than in God's word?


.

You must have missed where I said "using Scripture."


Verses he lists:
big verses. big answers.

As in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be vivified, yet every man in his own order
—1 Corinthians 15:22-23
Even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just —Romans 5:19
For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all, the testimony in its own eras —1 Timothy 2:5-6
God is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers
—1 Timothy 4:10
God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all —Romans 11:32
All is out of God, through God, and into God
—Romans 11:36
All in heaven and on earth shall be headed up in Christ —Ephesians 1:10
Everything created will be reconciled to God, through the blood of His cross —Colossians 1:16-20, Romans 8:21
In the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father
—Philippians 2:10-11

Read the New Testament and notice that the doctrine of eternal torment appears, in some places, to be taught. But then so does the doctrine of Jesus saving the world, of the Lamb of God taking away the sin of the world, of God reconciling all creation to Himself, of Satan’s works being undone, and of good bettering evil. How can these opposing things appear to appear side-by-side in the same book? It’s a mark, I believe, of divine genius.

So, I'm intrgued by a book that challenges what is taught, which is not exactly Scriptural.

 

[KCKID]

As much as I'd like to I can't really respond to this topic until something important is cleared up.

In real life JTKirk and I are actual friends. He's been 'searching' for that spiritual 'something' to fill a hole inside for some time. Same with many of us. Before my Christianity began to wain he admired, I think, my Christian stance on a number of issues and was very influenced by them. Two years ago - just before my skepticism with regard to Christians themselves and the authenticity of the Bible generally began to affect my Christian walk - I subscribed to another Christian forum where I was known as Trekker06. I no longer participate in that forum and haven't done so for some time.

Now, JT has recently rediscovered this forum and has chosen for his own reasons to lift some of the threads I initiated on the other forum and, word for word, introduce them here. In this particular thread, for instance, post #8 is word for word one of MY responses from the other forum. In fact, I don't think JT has used anything original at all. Other thread titles of mine that JT has lifted are: For The Trekker: Are You Among The Few?; For Trekker: All We Have Is The Old Testament, the 4 Gospels, & Revelations; and, Is This What Christians Believe? Why he uses 'Trekker' at all I have no idea unless the inclusion of my former screen name somehow makes him feel better for having 'stolen' my contributions.

While I don't really mind what JT is doing (as I say, we ARE friends) I don't think that he should be using these thread titles and actual posts of mine without making this known to others on the board. After all, it IS a form of plagiarism. Since I've ALREADY made this known then perhaps an acknowledgment from JT might be in order. Then we can continue.

 

[JTKIRK]

As much as I'd like to I can't really respond to this topic until something important is cleared up.

In real life JTKirk and I are actual friends. He's been 'searching' for that spiritual 'something' to fill a hole inside for some time. Same with many of us. Before my Christianity began to wain he admired, I think, my Christian stance on a number of issues and was very influenced by them. Two years ago - just before my skepticism with regard to Christians themselves and the authenticity of the Bible generally began to affect my Christian walk - I subscribed to another Christian forum where I was known as Trekker06. I no longer participate in that forum and haven't done so for some time.

Now, JT has recently rediscovered this forum and has chosen for his own reasons to lift some of the threads I initiated on the other forum and, word for word, introduce them here. In this particular thread, for instance, post #8 is word for word one of MY responses from the other forum. In fact, I don't think JT has used anything original at all. Other thread titles of mine that JT has lifted are: For The Trekker: Are You Among The Few?; For Trekker: All We Have Is The Old Testament, the 4 Gospels, & Revelations; and, Is This What Christians Believe? Why he uses 'Trekker' at all I have no idea unless the inclusion of my former screen name somehow makes him feel better for having 'stolen' my contributions.

While I don't really mind what JT is doing (as I say, we ARE friends) I don't think that he should be using these thread titles and actual posts of mine without making this known to others on the board. After all, it IS a form of plagiarism. Since I've ALREADY made this known then perhaps an acknowledgment from JT might be in order. Then we can continue.

No worries KC we already have discussed this. You know what is going on so lets see how they roll out.

 

[Beanieboy]

Do you have no thoughts of your own, JT?

I have a suspicion that all of us have a different idea of God, and in its totality, is probably far more accurate than our own understanding alone, so your thoughts and views are just as needed as anyone else's.

I'm less concerned about form or style, and more concerned about the content.

 

[KCKID]

Do you have no thoughts of your own, JT?

Oh, he does ...if I can speak for JT before he comes online. He and I have discussed these type issues a great deal over the years.

 

[StarVoyager]

Hell is whatever you think it is.

So if one do not believe in a hell when there is not one, but if you do thing there is a hell than it exists. Really, i would say that this would be imposable.

 

[tcampen]

You're trying to understand the things of the spirit with the flesh. Just as there is a fleshly "real world", there is a spiritual "real world". There is indeed a spiritual realm and even though you can't physically see that realm, it is nonetheless all around us.

Ahhhhh, yes. And there is also the secret Gremlin realm. It, too, is all around us, although you can physically see it.

Prove me wrong. See the problem? See the point?

Again, no one of Christ expects those thinking in the flesh to have a comprehension of the things of the spirit. The Bible says...

Meaningless dribble unless you can provide REAL support for this contention. Otherwise, you can continue to talk about those secret Gremlins...er...what was it again?

(By the way, this is not to demean your personal revelation of faith, but to simply point out that your claims of an objective reality of a very particular spiritual realm are no more founded than the Secret Gremlin realm. Unless you care to present REAL evidence to the contrary.)

Are you a Christian? Have you asked Jesus Christ, the one who spoke of hell so many times, if hell is real even though you can't see it?

I did, and Jesus told me there is no such thing as hell. Now what?

If you are a Christian who believes in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, where is He? He said He was goiing back to His Father and His Father is in heaven.

God told me something very different than this.

So if you are a follower of Jesus Christ and He is in heaven that you ALSO cannot physically see or have any idea of how to physically get there, why is it so hard to believe that hell is just as real?

Because YOUR concept of hell is utterly irrational by ANY conceivable standard, even God is laughing at it.

 

[WatersMoon110]

MOD HAT ON

Thread moved from Ethics & Morality to Unorthodox Theology.

MOD HAT OFF
​

 

[Garyzenuf]

You're trying to understand the things of the spirit with the flesh. Just as there is a fleshly "real world", there is a spiritual "real world". There is indeed a spiritual realm and even though you can't physically see that realm, it is nonetheless all around us.

See, this is where you lose me Zaac, Do you mean another dimension? I watched a show the other night touching on different dimensions existing parallel to ours (they were trying to figure out why gravity is such a weak force compared to the other three, think it might be getting swallowed up by other dimensions).

As much as I don't understand this line of reasoning, at least it does attempt to explain some things that are unknown. You just say theres a "spiritual realm" all around us which we can't see, but is there none the less, which of course, explains nothing.

*

 

[Blackmarch]

[FONT=&quot]Christians believe emphatically that there is a literal heaven. They also believe emphatically that there is a literal hell. While we are given a brief description of heaven in the Bible (streets of gold, walls of jasper, etc.) hell is presented in rather vague terms. As long as Christians believe that hell is the future and the everlasting abode for unrepentant sinners, what precisely IS hell and WHERE is it 'geographically' located? Is it literal or is it figurative? Whatever your belief, please state your reasons for believing as you do[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

The complete absence of God and heaven and the assurance and/or peace thereof. If it is a specific location I would not know where it is (unless you mean the Hell in Michigan ).
As for being a place where a sinner spends the rest of his time I do not agree with as I have not seen the bible say that save for those who have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost (which is not an easy thing to do). And if someone is willing to repent at some point then it would be unjust to keep them there forever would be unjust.

 

[TurntoChrist1985]

One cannot believe in the Bible and not believe in the eternal nature of hell, it's written clearly and in multiple places. Hell may not be a physical location that one can just stumble upon.

 

[izarya]

I believe God is present in some form everywhere. Hell is here and now.

 

[superwimp]

Hello,

My belief about hell is strongly influenced by the Edgar Cayce readings. My understanding is that eventually we will no longer be allowed to reincarnate. We will have what the bible defines as the last judgement. We will all go to heaven. The entities which have not achieved the ability to forgive will lose there memory because we can't all live together if some people are carrying grudges. This loss of memory is hell. The moral here is to forgive your neighbor.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Hell is a figurative concept created by humans primarily as a means of controlling behavior through fear.

That pretty much sums it up.

There is also a more literal meaning which refers to the grave. Despite what many if not most churchs teach fire is a good thing and the lake of fire seems to point to purification in the presence of God rather than eternal seperation or eternal suffering.

 

[LightSeaker]

One cannot believe in the Bible and not believe in the eternal nature of hell, it's written clearly and in multiple places.

Yet, one can know and experience God and still not believe in any images or concepts of Hell.

.

 

[Soul Searcher]

One cannot believe in the Bible and not believe in the eternal nature of hell, it's written clearly and in multiple places. Hell may not be a physical location that one can just stumble upon.

Actually you will not find the phrase "eternal hell" in any place in any bible. What you will find is a few mentions of punishment, destruction, fire, smoke sometimes accompanied by words that either say or imply forever yet if you read carefully you will see that in bible such as the KJV that hell is not eternal and gives up the dead which are there and in others such as the YLT you will not find the word hell anywhere within its pages.

IMO one has to be blind to the love of God to believe in any form of eternal torment.

 

[izarya]

The word hell is derived or translated in the Bible from the Hebrew words Gahanna and sheol, as well as from the Greek word Hades. Gehanna is derived from the Hebrew word Hinnom, and was Jerusalem’s garbage dump that lay outside of the city walls; quite similar to today’s landfills. It was full of pits and smoldering flames from burning refuse. For a Jew, who would have been much concerned with proper burial, to have his remains discarded in Gehanna after death would have been a truly shameful fate, but it is a far cry from the fiery pit we imagine today.

Not only was the city’s waste was burned there, but also historically this was the same place where the worshipers of Baal had sacrificed their children in the fire, therefore the smoldering stench of it became a symbol of torment, the place of separation from God.

The original name of this place was the Valley of Hinnom was also known as Tophet. Jeremiah prophesied that The Most High would burry the wicked of Jerusalem in Tophet until there was no more room to burry (Jeremiah 19:1-14). He also warns that this valley will be called the "Valley of Slaughter" (Jer 7:30-33). This prophecy was of course fulfilled by the Romans upon their siege and subsequent capture of the city after Jewish revolt.Hades on the other hand[/FONT][FONT=&quot], from the Greek, literally means "unseen," which explains its use to refer to the nether world of the dead (known as the "shades") and the presiding god of that region, Hades.

Hades happens to be the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Sheol, also meaning "unseen" (which occurs 65 times in the Bible; the original King James version only translates it as "Hell" 31 times). Although the initial referent of the Hebrew and Greek words are the same, it is important to note that while the Greeks had built a complex nether world mythology around the word Hades, the Hebrew Sheol does not share those associations.

Much of the reason why a lot of these images are found in the New Testament but not in the old is that, like it or not, Judaism had suffered eclecticism, Israel had picked up many traditions and beliefs from the nations that they had been in captivity under and exposed to throughout the years.

Besides this, by the time Christ was here there had been a “Hellenization” of Judaism that had occurred, knowing this He chose to speak to them in language they could understand rather than try to correct their theology at that time (which even today would be an exercise in futility).

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

What happens to a body that is thrown into fire? It would be consumed. The notion that immortality can be achieved without fellowship with the God who alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16) is the only thing that causes confusion regarding this matter.

 

[pclarkwilson]

If God is truly omniscient, and I believe he is, then he knew everything about everyone before creation. he knew the end from the beginning, he knew every thought that every person would ever have. He knew every choice that every person would be presented with and which option we would take in every instance.

Knowing that a huge percentage of everyone who ever lived would be eternally damned...why would he ever create anything? Only a ogre would so such a thing and God is not a ogre. There is no eternal damnation. This interpretation has to be wrong.