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What do you see masturbating as? Sin? Sorry about all the topics you must have!
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Floatingaxe
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BloodwashedPilgrim
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Not to take away from the good point that you made, but Romans 14 has already been mentioned prior, not to be argumentative, just to show the truth.
You elaborated on it a little more in detail which was definitely worth doing in this thread, but the concept was already mentioned prior.
(Pg 9 by Bliz and Pg 10 by myself).
--By Bliz (referencing to 1 Cor. 8)--
Why do your assume that your personal experience will be normative for everyone else? You can know without a doubt that God does not YOU to do something, and I totally respect that and would never urge otherwise. But if there is something that God does not want any of us to do, He spells it out very clearly in Scripture.
Think of this as one of the issues like eating meat that had been offered to idols. The Bible does not tell the eaters to put down their forks or non eaters to chow down - the Bible tells the two groups how to get along with each other.
--By BloodwashedPilgrim (extending the thought of freedom in Christ to Romans 14 mentality)--
If I may, with no desire to offend anyone at all, point out that all of you speak of "God's Word" and "God's Will" and such things, but none of you have let Him do the speaking through His Word. Be this a case like Romans 14 (which was at least mentioned by Bliz) then let us not be a stumbling block to a brother by envoking him to do what we know he views as sin. So, for those of you that somehow feel the freedom in Christ to touch without being a sin, you make it a sin by causing brothers to stumble with your words which make it universally acceptable to God. Thank you for the few of you who actually consider the well-being of you spiritual brothers and praise God for you.
Much love in Christ!
You elaborated on it a little more in detail which was definitely worth doing in this thread, but the concept was already mentioned prior.
(Pg 9 by Bliz and Pg 10 by myself).
--By Bliz (referencing to 1 Cor. 8)--
Why do your assume that your personal experience will be normative for everyone else? You can know without a doubt that God does not YOU to do something, and I totally respect that and would never urge otherwise. But if there is something that God does not want any of us to do, He spells it out very clearly in Scripture.
Think of this as one of the issues like eating meat that had been offered to idols. The Bible does not tell the eaters to put down their forks or non eaters to chow down - the Bible tells the two groups how to get along with each other.
--By BloodwashedPilgrim (extending the thought of freedom in Christ to Romans 14 mentality)--
If I may, with no desire to offend anyone at all, point out that all of you speak of "God's Word" and "God's Will" and such things, but none of you have let Him do the speaking through His Word. Be this a case like Romans 14 (which was at least mentioned by Bliz) then let us not be a stumbling block to a brother by envoking him to do what we know he views as sin. So, for those of you that somehow feel the freedom in Christ to touch without being a sin, you make it a sin by causing brothers to stumble with your words which make it universally acceptable to God. Thank you for the few of you who actually consider the well-being of you spiritual brothers and praise God for you.
Much love in Christ!
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Thanks! and I completely agree with the danger of morality becoming relative...that is the last thing we need in a society where the relativistic and humanistic movement is stronger than ever right now. I would agree also with the fear people have of applying it because of that danger. Although, even though the Bible is magnificent in its entirety, it cannot possibly address every single issue directly...that is where the intervention of the Holy Spirit comes in and moves and convicts us as to what is right or wrong. Romans 8:26-27 (ESV) says
"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do." --Galatians 5:16-17
This is a big reason I see masturbation as being wrong...not just because of the conviction I have from the Spirit, but also from what I see sexual immorality as...succumbing to lust for personal pleasure and gain.
May His Spirit continue to move and convict,
Dmarketto
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Gukkor
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I can't speak for others, but for my part, it's never been my intention to actually encourage others to touch, especially not those who already think it's wrong, and simply disputing the claim that it is universally sinful does not constitute such encouragement. As I've said before, it doesn't offend my moral sensibilities that some people don't touch, and they certainly don't have to if they don't feel it to be right (in fact, IF someone thinks it to be a sin, I would encourage them NOT to do it, so long as they maintain that belief). However, if someone tells ME that it is wrong of ME to touch, I don't think it a stumbling block for others if I defend my position.
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Floatingaxe
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Floatingaxe
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Hi Dannager, 
oki here is my reply:
"Why? On what do you base such an argument?"
Well, I consider masturbation to be a corruption of sex because it involves one person, not two. People never feel sexual desire for themselves, certainly that would be very odd and unnatural...so let's say a man is attracted to a woman. If they are married, then sex would be the normal response to this. But if they are not married, and the man masturbates when he is thinking of her, then isn't he just giving in to lust? And didn't Jesus say: "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart". I don't know, maybe some people touch for reasons other than lust. I don't know what those reasons might be, but in that case, it might not be a sin for them. But if lust is involved, it sure sounds like a sin.
"Haha, no, not only because of that. It's fine because it is healthy, harms no one, and has not been declared sinful. I've never once seen an argument for masturbation being sinful that didn't hinge on someone being raised a certain way, or having a faulty interpretation of scripture. Many times such a view is bolstered by the desire to appear righteous."
Well, I can't pretend to be perfectly righteous, I wasn't raised to think that masturbation is a sin, so I guess that maybe I have a faulty interpretation of scripture ...who knows...Honestly though I feel that it's a sin because it comes from/leads to lust (the proper response to lust is sex within marriage).
"it's healthy":
I don't know if this is true, but I'll assume it is for now. But didn't Jesus say that we should be prepared to make sacrifices for Him? "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." I guess my response to this is: if masturbation causes someone to sin (for example, to lust), then it's better for them to stop doing it. Healthy or not. If somehow, a person is able to do it without feeling lust, then they should examine their reasons for doing it... for example, if they do it because of stress, maybe they should try turning to God instead? That's really up to them and between them and God.
"Harms no one":
But does it harm the person doing it? Does it harm their relationship with God? I don't know. If they become addicted, if they feel lust, if it leads them to sin, then it harms them. Sin leads to death...
"has not been declared sinful":
by whom? By the Bible? Well, that's fair enough...although the Bible doesn't really give us a list of rules to live by. It's a spiritual book that's meant to be read spiritually.
"God has such bigger fish to fry."
True
but He does intend to make us perfect. Of course He still loves us as we are
"All major professional medical and psychiatric organizations consider it healthy and normal. It relieves stress and sexual frustration and has even shown to be beneficial in dealing with certain forms of male cancer. As for it being addictive, anything can be addictive. Food can be addictive. Internet use can be addictive. People make the mistake of attributing non-chemical addiction to an activity rather than the person. An addiction-prone personality is usually to blame in cases like this, and you will often find that even if a certain activity is stopped, that person will simply move onto the next addiction. Addiction-prone personalities are something that can be treated.:"
That's a good point. hmm... I guess I'll say this: if masturbation causes someone to sin, or if they become addicted to it, then they're putting their soul in danger and should stop. But there are many stories of people who are addicted to it, so I must conclude that it's easy to get addicted to. That's dangerous.
"No, you're right, but things that do harm others unduly are sins. I'm just ruling out all the conditions that could make it sinful. The big ones are: do you feel personally convicted by it? (I do not.) Is it shown to be sinful by a thoughtful, proper understanding of scriptural morality? (It is not.) Does it violate the ethic of reciprocity (the "Golden Rule")? (It doesn't.)"
If you do not feel convicted that it's wrong, then maybe you're in not much danger from it. But if someone does feel that it's wrong, then maybe the Holy Spirit is warning them.
"It's something witnessed in nature, in young children and by all cultures. It is as normal as scratching an itch."
Not sure about this...then murder is normal, cause it's witnessed in all cultures and in all times. Of course I'm not comparing this to murder, lol
oki here is my reply:"Why? On what do you base such an argument?"
Well, I consider masturbation to be a corruption of sex because it involves one person, not two. People never feel sexual desire for themselves, certainly that would be very odd and unnatural...so let's say a man is attracted to a woman. If they are married, then sex would be the normal response to this. But if they are not married, and the man masturbates when he is thinking of her, then isn't he just giving in to lust? And didn't Jesus say: "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart". I don't know, maybe some people touch for reasons other than lust. I don't know what those reasons might be, but in that case, it might not be a sin for them. But if lust is involved, it sure sounds like a sin.
"Haha, no, not only because of that. It's fine because it is healthy, harms no one, and has not been declared sinful. I've never once seen an argument for masturbation being sinful that didn't hinge on someone being raised a certain way, or having a faulty interpretation of scripture. Many times such a view is bolstered by the desire to appear righteous."
Well, I can't pretend to be perfectly righteous, I wasn't raised to think that masturbation is a sin, so I guess that maybe I have a faulty interpretation of scripture
...who knows...Honestly though I feel that it's a sin because it comes from/leads to lust (the proper response to lust is sex within marriage). "it's healthy":
I don't know if this is true, but I'll assume it is for now. But didn't Jesus say that we should be prepared to make sacrifices for Him? "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." I guess my response to this is: if masturbation causes someone to sin (for example, to lust), then it's better for them to stop doing it. Healthy or not. If somehow, a person is able to do it without feeling lust, then they should examine their reasons for doing it... for example, if they do it because of stress, maybe they should try turning to God instead? That's really up to them and between them and God.
"Harms no one":
But does it harm the person doing it? Does it harm their relationship with God? I don't know. If they become addicted, if they feel lust, if it leads them to sin, then it harms them. Sin leads to death...
"has not been declared sinful":
by whom? By the Bible? Well, that's fair enough...although the Bible doesn't really give us a list of rules to live by. It's a spiritual book that's meant to be read spiritually.
"God has such bigger fish to fry."
True
but He does intend to make us perfect. Of course He still loves us as we are "All major professional medical and psychiatric organizations consider it healthy and normal. It relieves stress and sexual frustration and has even shown to be beneficial in dealing with certain forms of male cancer. As for it being addictive, anything can be addictive. Food can be addictive. Internet use can be addictive. People make the mistake of attributing non-chemical addiction to an activity rather than the person. An addiction-prone personality is usually to blame in cases like this, and you will often find that even if a certain activity is stopped, that person will simply move onto the next addiction. Addiction-prone personalities are something that can be treated.:"
That's a good point. hmm... I guess I'll say this: if masturbation causes someone to sin, or if they become addicted to it, then they're putting their soul in danger and should stop. But there are many stories of people who are addicted to it, so I must conclude that it's easy to get addicted to. That's dangerous.
"No, you're right, but things that do harm others unduly are sins. I'm just ruling out all the conditions that could make it sinful. The big ones are: do you feel personally convicted by it? (I do not.) Is it shown to be sinful by a thoughtful, proper understanding of scriptural morality? (It is not.) Does it violate the ethic of reciprocity (the "Golden Rule")? (It doesn't.)"
If you do not feel convicted that it's wrong, then maybe you're in not much danger from it. But if someone does feel that it's wrong, then maybe the Holy Spirit is warning them.
"It's something witnessed in nature, in young children and by all cultures. It is as normal as scratching an itch."
Not sure about this...then murder is normal, cause it's witnessed in all cultures and in all times. Of course I'm not comparing this to murder, lol
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I also don't believe that something becomes bad just because we enjoy it (after all, as Christians, we enjoy worshipping God!). I like what John Piper said, that we glorify God by being satisfied in Him.
But the problem with masturbation is that in essense, isn't it enjoying lust outside of marriage? Is that a right or wrong thing to enjoy? The Bible seems to tell us it's wrong... So unless a person does it for reasons other than lust, I have to conclude that it's wrong because it comes from/leads to, sin.
Enjoying something is sort of like praising it. So if we're talking about God, a movie, a spouse, etc etc etc, then it's good to enjoy it. But enjoying lust, or oneself, that seems wrong and self serving. It's taking the focus away from what's really praise-worthy.
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Gukkor
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But again, despite what anyone says or how it may appear, lust and masturbation aren't one and the same. Granted, some people cannot separate the two, for whatever reason, and such people should indeed avoid masturbating. However, many people, myself included, can do so. In such cases, would you still consider it wrong?
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I asked you about Christian cancer patients, Floatingaxe. What about them? Give a straight answer to a question for once, without resorting to meaningless rhetoric.
I am neither judging nor criticizing God. I am criticizing you for having a ridiculous perception of the nature of the divine. Accept the criticism instead of deflecting it. God doesn't appreciate being used as your scapegoat.
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Then give the gradebook back to God and stop acting like he appointed you teaching assistant.
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Jedi
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In short: nope. The common Christian really has no idea what "lust" really is. Lust is not "sexual desire." Never does scripture narrow the definition as such. Scripture does use "lust" to refer to things - anything - we pursue more than we should. We can lust after power, pleasure, sleep, anything. Yet there is no indication that thinking sexual thoughts or enjoying sexual feelings outside of marriage falls under this definition.
People are just afraid of enjoying something so powerful when scripture doesn't spell it out for them: "this is okay."
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Floatingaxe
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Floatingaxe
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Floatingaxe
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