What do you see masturbating as? Sin? Sorry about all the topics you must have!

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

Masturbation is ot a sin. The Bible has done an excellent job of making clear actions that are sinful, of given us principles that, when applied, make it clear something is a sin.

There is no verse that even discusses masturbation. There is no passage that discusses the "sin" of self gratification. Onan was not masturbating; Onan was having sexual relations.

Masturbation can become a sin, as can any activity taken to excess, but it is not inherently sinful.

Yes, someone might leave you because of this. YOu read some of the posts - "filthy" "disgustng" and some believe it is a sin. Someone who felt that way might leave someone who admits to masturbation. I consider that a good thing: better to discover this difference of opinion before the marriage.

Dear Bliz,

I would be very interested to hear you respond to my earlier post. I understand both sides of this argument and see the "rationale" behind your statements. I would also say, that "self-gratification" is distinctly called sinful in many places in Scripture, and not just concerning sexual behavior. Following the teachings of Scripture, I have two natures (as a believer)...the old, sinful, and the new, in Christ. So, I live a life of flesh vs. spirit. I would be interested to hear how masturbation could possibly be a desire of the spirit.

Galatians 5:16-21
"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Obviously, "self-gratification" is doing that which I please...self-gratification could simply be worded...pleasing myself. If I am pleasing myself, in the flesh, how is it I can be pleasing God in the Spirit? I'm not speaking as the Gnostics who claim the body has no relevance, it does; but there is a difference between bodily needs and fleshly desires. The Gnostics say good can only come through the mind, so do what you please with your body...whether you mutilate or satiate it makes no difference. We, of course, know this not to be the case from some of the verses I have already quoted. Our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, we were bought at a price and are commanded to "glorify God with our bodies." God states His desire for us (spirit/soul/body) in

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I still desire to know how God is honored through masturbation, or how His sanctification of our body is being attained through it. If those aren't attained through it then...

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8
"Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you."

So if it is not accomplishing the sanctifying work God desires for our bodies (spirits, and souls) and it is not possessing our vessels in honor, and it is not honoring the Lord with our bodies then what is it?

I know God is honored in the marriage bed...it is a most intimate communion and fellowship between two believers joined together in Him...and we know it is in Him for He established it and Christ stated it.

Matthew 19:3-6
"Some Phariseees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, 'Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?' And he answered and said, 'Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?" So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.'"

1 Corinthians 6:13
"Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body."

I understand that if you need me to show you "masturbation is wrong" in Scripture I could never meet that burden of proof, however I believe if you really study the message of Scripture concerning such areas and look at the heart of the message it is made quite evident what the Lord's desire is for our bodies. Unless someone could show me how such an act as masturbation accomplishes God's desires for our bodies I cannot see how it is not sin. As James stated, "Therefore to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin." We as believers know the call God has given us for our lives in the sanctification of our bodies, souls and spirits and also that his glory and honor is to be manifested through the use of our bodies. If one desires to state that masturbation is entirely neutral and while it does not sanctify a believer it does not degrade one either, then that is one's prerogative, but I cannot see how a believer could truly come to such a conclusion when the Scriptural evidence and the nature of our God is honestly examined.

Thank you for the discussion. May the Lord be honored through our discourse.
Much love in Christ.

 

[Gukkor]

Did God give us the stuff to make kids, or to love ourselves?

Masturbation is a form of self-love. Self-love = selfishness.


Please read:
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/selfabuse.aspx

As I recall, the Lord said to love others as one loves oneself, not at the expense of loving oneself.

 

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

As I recall, the Lord said to love others as one loves oneself, not at the expense of loving oneself.

So what would you say about the way Christ loved us? That wasn't at the expense of "loving Himself"?

John 10:11
"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."

John 15:13
"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

Ephesians 5:28-30
"So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body."

I see God using the concept of loving another as oneself simply to interpret a spiritually appraised concept to spiritually depraved minds. How else will a man comprehend with what kind of love he is to love? God knows our prideful hearts, our self-absorption, our egocentricity and He knows our desire for self-preservation and He knows we would understand what kind of love He was implying if He stated it such a way.

However, I don't see Christ cherishing His body in the way He loved us.

Philippians 2:5-8
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

You are right in so much as this, God does not call us to be self-haters, my last post actually refutes that very thought. God expects the utmost from our bodies, souls and spirits. He wants us to be sanctified and Himself to be glorified, but He does not want us to be prideful or self-absorbed if that is the connotation of loving oneself. God desires us to be humble. God requires us to place ourselves (the whole self) in our proper place.

Luke 14:26-27
"'If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot by My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.'"

Obviously, Christ's intention is not to cause emnity amongst the family, for Scripture teaches against such a thought in several places. He does require we be willing to lay down our lives (not only in death but even more so in life [Romans 12:1-2]) and our priorities for His kingdom though.

As far as the whole, "self-love" concept goes with this topic...I believe the verbage is wrong. I do not believe that properly embodies what masturbation is. Just because one does not touch does not mean one does not "love" oneself, most certainly not. And masturbating is not necessarily a way of loving oneself either. Most of the time masturbation is encouraged by an outside source of lust (note: MOST OF THE TIME, for those who would want to start arguing that point). So, I believe that such a discussion is not truly pertinent to the discussion of "What is masturbation?". So with that in mind I will take no further time to address that issue as I have already taken quite of bit of time doing so.

Much love in Christ.

 

[Ave Maria]

Masturbation is not a sin. That is my opinion.

 

[Gukkor]

Masturbation is not a sin. That is my opinion.

I only wish more posts in threads about divisive issues could be as succinct as this.

 

[holo]

Did God give us the stuff to make kids, or to love ourselves?

Why did God give you a mourth? To speak or to eat?

Masturbation is a form of self-love. Self-love = selfishness.

If masturbation is selfish, what is the alternative, that is not selfish?

 

[R3quiem]

Why did God give you a mourth? To speak or to eat?

If masturbation is selfish, what is the alternative, that is not selfish?

I do believe that masturbation is a sin and is selfish.

But the same argument could be used for everything else. You could argue it's selfish to scratch a mosquito bite. It's selfish to eat, drink, or breath.

 

[Floatingaxe]

If masturbation is selfish, what is the alternative, that is not selfish?

It is self-denial. Take up your cross and follow Jesus, man. You do without! Do something more beneficial with your God-given free time! Sheesh!

 

[Abufihamat]

Yet another masturbation thread. Without lusting, masturbation isn't a sin, but with lusting, it is.

touching yourself cannot be considered a sin if the person you're expressing your love to has also, they're gratification and care planned for.​

Lust, at its core, is an act commited to achieve ones own gratification; to desire essentially, without share or good context.

​

It's wise to live a life that has a knowledge of External, Internal, and Spiritual respect.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::​

External Respect is an acknowledgement or reguard of someones own personal or spiritual boundaries and laws; whether Christian or otherwise.​

Someone can maintain External Respect even if you have lusted or masterbated plainly without it. For example, you find yourself one day sexually aroused and masterbating. In your head, thoughts of Tennis Rackets, Apples, and Random Gnomes float about your mind; assuming you encounter these objects in not just public but religiously minded places AND respect them under the conditions listed above, you are not commiting the sin of lust according to the laws of External Respect.

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Internal Respect is an acknowledgement or reguard of ones own physical being and emotional intricacies; its something you understand about yourself involving your own security.​

You know your a Christian, Catholic, Moslem or Judiac -- and while masterbating you encounter thoughts of hurtful dissent; your Imam decreeing you a heretic, ordering your stoning to death. Your preacher, removing you from the house of God, because everything you touch now is suddenly, "unclean". Your friends or family no longer loving or caring for you; and you ask yourself, "Where did this all come from? Is this true? Is this Gods message to me?"​

Q: Where did this all come from?
A: Fears. Ones own developing conscious, Jinn or Demon otherwise will feed off of them because all three are vunerable to change or perception of power. Your also convinced of these areas as being the result of cause and effect; essentially, the controlled results according to the rules you live by. In summary, an invisible reality with all the wrong rules of this reality.​

You might ask yourself these things:​

If these thoughts came out of fear, what am I afraid of?​

Notice that none of them involve God.​

Q: Is this true?
A: No.​

You won't know what anyone is capable of doing, but by reading they're perceived actions we can understand that feasibly, your perception of reality is extremely biased against your own imagination, concepts, form of expression, and value as a servant for God.​

In short, you don't know how to respect yourself and it would seem that when you try to establish your value, often times, you perceive that it is met with quite some force. God values you.​

You just need to know how to belief in yourself and Gods promised protection of your journey on his Earth. A follow up query might be; "But how does this act justify they're actions?" It doesn't because Gods justice is singular only to him. Your Preacher masterbated and found God only because his father died, not because he had chronic wrist problems or still confronts his urges late at night in front of his computer screen. Your Imam has seven wives and four more children on the way next to his orginal five and your friends are pulling the pud all the same.​

Oh,
and all of that laughter coming out of, "Mommy and Daddys Room?" Well, Jesus just is'int telling the best Knock-Knock Jokes past 12 at night.​

"But why", you might confront, "does it seem like I believe they'd hate me for doing it? My preacher condemned it just last week in a sermon he gave -- what can I do?"​

Your preacher read the book of the holy gospel just the same as any snake can. God does not condemn touching yourself. He only condemns a lust which aims to hurt his creatures and earth. A lust that would force you to rape. A lust that would force you to condemn your enemies to a holocaust.​

Scientists, however much they claim to know, came to the conclusion that I've known as a, "non-denominational believer", in that touching yourself can help you resist the lust that might cause rape. It relieves the stress related to sexual frusterations that can otherwise lead to a disease ridden intercourse or premartial birth and can restore oneself to his own choices under God.​

You'll find that instead of desperately trying to find a lover to experience sex, avoiding Gods choices, that to a certain degree, you won't need one until God has prepared one for you. It's just another way to pass the time until God has set in stone which way he wants you to take.​

And without the added peer pressure to force yourself into sex simply for sexual identity and belonging, you'll instead be secure from the worlds diseases and mischoices.​

But assuming you have intercourse, God still has a plan for you and will always love you.​

Q: Is this Gods message to me?
A: No. This message was brought out of fear and our own conscious pities us into believing them.​

Demons or Jinn, if you find the spiritual realm extremely powerful to your own senses, will often manipulate or attempt to misguide you. It is important to choose yourself over any demon, whether its spirtual or a part of your imaginative belonging or emotional creation.​

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A Spirtual Respect would be one that carries with it an awareness of what forces are which, and what they are trying to achieve in you.​

Demons will work through Preachers, Teachers, or sometimes yourself. We are all susceptible -- those are the laws. So, continue fapping or choose not too -- either will not reduce the love God has for you or what plan he makes in your way.​

 

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

I don't understand what on earth you are really trying to say here brother. If you could show me your beliefs in a little more logical manner and maybe show me some Scripture, so that I'm not compelled to think that what you are stating is simply nothing more than your own personal opinion. Thanks for the time to reply though, brother.

Much love in Christ.

 

[Abufihamat]

If you could show me your beliefs in a little more logical manner and maybe show me some Scripture, so that I'm not compelled to think that what you are stating is simply nothing more than your own personal opinion.

What is logic, to you brother?
Gods word? Or your interpretation?

Additionally, what do you gather the message is trying to convey that you might feel is danerous enough to your opinions and critique, that you'd need defend yourself from it? I cannot readdress every issue if criticsm is not applied in the areas where a particular author thought due.

 

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

And one other quick point I need to make perfectly clear...no one ever said God will love you less if you touch, no one ever made that claim about any sin. Nothing can separate us from God's love or God himself being He is LOVE.

Romans 8:35-39
'Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, 'For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.' But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us form the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1 John 4:8
"The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love."

Much love in Christ.

 

[Abufihamat]

And one other quick point I need to make perfectly clear...no one ever said God will love you less if you touch, no one ever made that claim about any sin. Nothing can separate us from God's love or God himself being He is LOVE.

Thank you for sharing this thought with me.

For those of you not able to read something so long as my own post, this will deduce it for you; well, about half of it.

 

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

It is not a matter of "self-defense," simply a matter of discourse and discussion. I have no argumentative feelings. I am sorry to say that I simply found your form of discourse difficult to follow. I am not attacking any of your viewpoints, just trying to understand them. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Much love in Christ.

 

[Abufihamat]

I have no argumentative feelings. I am sorry to say that I simply found your form of discourse difficult to follow. I am not attacking any of your viewpoints, just trying to understand them.

You however, did.

What your really trying to get at, I'd conjecture, is the true meaning between all the lines. What did you interept?

 

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

You however, did.

What your really trying to get at, I'd conjecture, is the true meaning between all the lines. What did you interept?

Well, what does the laughter coming from "Mommy and Daddy's" room have to do with masturbation? Unless you are implying that either Mommy or Daddy are alone in there making some sort of illicit sounds. I'm also not sure how the fantasies of gnomes and tennis rackets are pertinent, unless you are just claiming that as long as my thoughts are not sexually illicit and my heart is not lustful, masturbation is justifiable. The idea that masturbation helps one to control their sexual desires and keep them from being focused outwardly against others does not justify it. Paul says that not being able to control yourself is the reason to marry, not touch.

1 Corinthians 7:9
"But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

And this "guilt complex" that is causing you to be outcast in your fantasies during masturbation means what?

I apologize if you feel as though I am attacking you in any way, that is certainly not the intent. I very much so appreciate your discussion.

Much love in Christ.

 

[Abufihamat]

Well, what does the laughter coming from "Mommy and Daddy's" have to do with masturbation?

The sub-topic at hand. If Mommy and Daddy were without lust, would they be having maritial sex? Or is that a desire to share love? Is that not perfectly legal according to his tenants?

I'm also not sure how the fantasies of gnomes and tennis rackets is pertinent, unless you are just claiming that as long as my thoughts are not sexually illicit and my heart is not lustful, masturbation is justifiable.

The context was, whatever floats your boat. Lust, is expressed as much outwardly as inwardly. If you reserve to hunt someone down to rape them, then it is lust.

If you reserve to experience a mutual sexual experience in your mind reguarding whatever, it is indeed desire, but nowhere near as dangerous as lust; and desire is not a sin, for if we did'nt desire, would we also desire not to eat?

Or to believe in God?

The idea that masturbation helps one to control their sexual desires and keep them from being focused outwardly against others does not justify it.

Yes it does.

Because lust destroys. Fighting lust, in any method possible, is indeed a proper application.

"But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

Self-control however can be gained -- for without it in these times friend, most people have the passion for intercourse before marriage, and still burn with passion for others after.

And this "guilt complex" that is causing you to be outcast is your fantasies during masturbation means what?

The Questionaire was ment to illustrate and provide answers to several important questions concerning fantasies and touching yourself altogether, and that above all, the only entity you should be concerned with is God.

Now, unless you want people to bow before they're preachers as well ... as the questionaire states, these people are not for whom you should be concerned with.

 

[BloodwashedPilgrim]

So, your thoughts concerning any of my earlier discourses set out from Scripture are that I have "interpreted them incorrectly"? Is that true? Because I very much so agree with you, pleasing the Lord is all that really matters, and He wants our sanctification and His glorification.

Galatians 1:10
"For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ."

 

[Touma]

Although its never mentioned in the bible, I do believe it is a sin, because:
1) its near impossible not to lust while doing it. I've tried to go that route, but it fails
2) Most of the time, its addicting, and if we have addiction, then we are not relying on God fully.
3) we are giving in to natural desires, not necessary for living. We are to be focused on things from above, not things of the earth.

 

[Abufihamat]

Because I very much so agree with you, pleasing the Lord is all that really matters, and He wants our sanctification and His glorification.

Indeed. Which is where I advised against listening to religious peer pressure and I'am one to agree with you here.

An excellent quote by the way, so why is it your so cautious about what I said? According to you, where on exactly the same page.

1) its near impossible not to lust while doing it. I've tried to go that route, but it fails

It is not impossible and lust is infact sometimes very different given a different of context. Investigate it and report your findings. Don't worry -- if you continue to choose as you will, it is not something I will condemn of a brother. It will only mean that explicity, you chose to know.

2) Most of the time, its addicting, and if we have addiction, then we are not relying on God fully.

When we ate from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, we immediately had gained the overall concepts behind good and evil, choice and submission.

Because it is a mans choice to touch or not, the act itself is often salvaged up as being an addicting act but I beg to differ. Everytime that I have, it was a choice. "You choose your addiction", as those DARE Counselors say.

3) we are giving in to natural desires, not necessary for living. We are to be focused on things from above, not things of the earth.

Is'int hunger a natural desire? Lust is'int natural but it is created from something called sexual frusteration or repression.

These, are the truths from behind the fruit that tempted us. Good or Evil, is up for you to interpret.