I posted the post below in the forum on pornography. Another forum where believers are trying to claim that such a thing can't be sinful because the Bible does not "explicity" state it. I don't know what such people are looking for in Scripture, but I tend to believe that if they were truly to LOOK at Scripture and INTERNALIZE its message they would reach new convictions about such things. The quote below addresses the main argument being made to state that masturbation is not a sin either. Fine, if you want to say that the Bible does not say that touching ourselves is sinful, fine. You are right the word "touch" is not in the Bible. However, if you really want to tell me that you are keeping your thought life in the confines of Scripture while masturbating (unless you are married and it is an act within the confines of the marriage bed) then you are a better man than I. Once you succumb to the fleshly desire to touch your body is focused sexually, how do you keep your mind and heart from focusing on sexual things? Listen, I am not speaking from a point of view that is "naive," because I too have succumb to such temptation, and that is why I feel so strongly about training other believers concerning its "slippery slope" trend to say the least. Anytime I felt the "urge" (fleshly/physical/sexual desire) to touch, my mind almost, if not completely, certainly went to sexually arousing thoughts. Whether they would be what some here would call "innocent," like just about someone you found attractive or not makes no difference, because such thoughts are with a completely wrong focus.
Philippians 4:8
"Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on such things."
And please do not say that thinking about some member of the opposite sex that sexually arouses you is "lovely" because you think the person is "sexy." Please, don't even. That is a perverse distortion of Scripture if you do. Now fine, the whole inter-spousal masturbation debate is not one I'm about to argue against because its confined within the marriage bed, so I don't really care to have that argument brought up against mine any longer. I respect those of you who are willing to say at least that, "if you feel it goes against God's Word don't do it." I have a GREAT RESPECT for those of you who are willing to at least not try to lead others into what can be such a wretched captivity. At best, masturbation is nothing but fleshly desire and at worst it is a gateway to a world of unending sexual perversion, and either way I think it is Scripturally wrong. I am in the Marine Corps, and let's just say that is a place with no shame concerning this topic. There are many Marines who, though they know they aren't living God-honoring lives, have accepted Christ as their personal Savior and can tell you the time, place and exact desire of their heart when they accepted Christ. They believe Christ died, they accept that He took their sins, they believe in His name and have received His free gift of salvation. They meet the Biblical burden of a man who is saved in what they say they believe. Now, I say all that to say this, I have talked with a couple of them about this, because they are more than willing to do so. I have talked to those who don't know Christ and don't care to and those who claim to know Christ and admit they are living sinful lives. Either way, both have said to me, oh sure, of course masturbation is sinful. I do it, but even I know that. What would be the reason they'd admit that? Because they don't care if they are "wrong" according to the Scripture. They don't have the conviction of the Holy Spirit operating properly in their lives. Now, why, on the other hand, would "believers" so fervently argue for masturbation's being made Scripturally acceptable and even beneficial? Because they have conviction working in their life and rather than admitting they are sinning, they would like to say, "everybody does it," "its natural," and "the Bible doesn't actually come out and say 'Don't touch." All of which are completely inadequate as defenses and go against the sanctified, set apart lifestyle we as Christians are to lead.
Matthew 5:27-30
"'You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery"; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lost one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell."
Interesting...adultery, lust, eye, hand. That's an interesting progression Christ makes. The argument that we aren't under the law anymore is WEAK. The law of grace commands a more sanctified life in Christ than the law of Moses ever did. We have an even HIGHER standard. Moses and Israel received the law because their hearts were hard and the Lord needed His people to have guidelines. They had no internal guide (Holy Spirit) and they needed an external one.
Romans 6:1-21
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised form the dead, is never to die again; death no lnoger is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive form the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed form sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death."
Paul seems pretty riled about that thought, as am I. Why?, because the Lord wants us to be Holy as He is Holy! I have been discouraged greatly by the things those who say they are in Christ want to make acceptable to Him (and I'm not just referencing this thread, but many of the topics in this forum). Daniel777 is right, there is a complete lack of recognition for God's holiness in today's church and thus a complete lack of desire for ours. How sad.
Quote-(I just changed the words concerning "pornography"...its the same gist and meets the same arguments that are being made here)
What do you need Scripture to say to make it inherently sinful? The exact verbage? But even if you had such a statement, then you would begin rationalizing the level of sexual impropriety that must be attained for it to truly be considered sinful. It's like what was said to the rich man when he asked father Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house that his family might not also be cast into Hades, "And he said, "'Then he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment." But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them." But he said, "No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent." But he said to him, "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead."'" (Luke 16:27-31) Modern morality? When did morality become a current affair? Morality need be based solely on Scripture, not reciprocity, although if one followed Scripture one would meet that level of morality simultaneously.
Luke 9:25-29
"And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying 'Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' And He said to him, 'What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?' And he answered, '"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.'" And He said to him, 'You have answered correctly; Do this and you will live.' But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?'"
(Interesting how the desire to justify ourselves has always been out there, even though if we as believers are justified through Christ (I have the most capable Defender, why try self-defense?).
My interactions and affairs with humans, my interdependence with the rest of mankind, and my actions' affects on society does not determine their sinfulness. I apologize for the sense of indignity that I may have portrayed in some of these concepts, I am just very bewildered and discouraged by some of the claims I have seen made on these posts. "Ethics" and "morality" seem to be simply as the wonderful philosopher himself put it, "What a man can do, and what a man can't do." -Captain Jack Sparrow. Heh, it's a sad world when it becomes as the days in Israel during the period of the judges..."In those days, there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes." (Judges 17:6) There is nothing new under the sun and if you think that such concepts of "modern morality" are at all modern, they aren't. They are simply re-vamped and re-named and redistributed. I do not see how one could possibly see pornography as "morally" acceptable if their guideline for such decisions is Biblically based.
Matthew 5:27-30
"'You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery"; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a owman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to e thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and through it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.'"
The very nature of pornography is sexual arousal and lustful desires. (Pornography and masturbation most certainly come from the same lustful, fleshly desires)
2 Timothy 2:22
"Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart."
1 John 2:16
"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust fo the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world."
Galatians 4:16-21
"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flehs are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
(In relation to 1 John...)Lust of the flesh AND lust of the eyes. So, if lust were only about a desire to actually have sexual appeasement (such as masturbation), that would be lust of the flesh. So, lust of the eyes? Pornography. We know that such desires go against the Spirit, for Paul states it plainly. I understand, a "pornographic" magazine is not the sin...there is no sin in the nakedness of a person, but I know you are kidding to say a man looks on at such a thing without lusting, this just isn't the case. We all know better, and at least for those of us willing to do so, must admit it. We have become so desensitized in our society and culture.
Genesis 3:10-11
"He said, ' I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because i was naked; so I hid myself.' And He said, 'Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?'"
Where did that sense of "morality," "propriety," "decency," and simple softness toward the heart of God go?
Genesis 3:21
"The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them."
And mankind has been encouraging the taking off of and reveling in the taking off of it ever since. It's meant for a man and a wife within the confines of the marrital bed. Adam and Eve were clothed even though they were "spouses." There is an anointed time and place for such relations between a man and a woman and it is certainly not out in the open, as confirmed by such a passage. I respect you and love you as a brother in Christ, Dannager, but I plead with you not to pull or encourage other brothers away from Christ by claiming such deeds as deeds of righteousness (or acceptable deeds to say the least is your claim).
Much love in Christ.
