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What do you mean when you say God "exists"?

DogmaHunter

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I guess the apple tree in my back yard is based on Faith as well than?

You're not making any sense.
You an easily demonstrate to anyone that this apple tree is real.

Unsurprisingly, you didn't comment on that list I gave you.
So, do you believe any of those things? Plenty of people accept them as "absolute reality".

Just ask Tom Cruise. He's an "Operating Thetan". And he's very serious about that.
Or any of the alien abductees. They are so convinced to have been anally probed on an alien space ship, they even pass lie detector tests.

Clearly, people considering fantastical things an "absolute reality", doesn't mean diddly squat, other then them merely believing it.
 
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DogmaHunter

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But others do see God as immanent. The count would be billions. Any more I think that not see the Divine in life is the delusion.

This is dishonest. No, "billions" don't agree on that at all.
Many of them see very different gods then you do and they see it in very different ways.

Even just within your own religion, there would be disagreement about it.
A quick look on this forum alone will already attest to that.
The handfull of christians we have here, can't even agree on it.

And please, let's stop pretending as if people believing things says anything more then them just believing things.

Even if 100% of people believe something, that doesn't mean that that thing is also true.

So, even if I would grant you that "billions" agree (which is not the case), then all you are doing is just engaging in the fallacious argument ad populum.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Seeing God as immanent isn't a definition. It's description of how they "see" the Divine.
They're not seeing at all. Immanence is an excuse for that not seeing. It's like putting on rose-colored glasses and claiming that the world is imbued with redness.
 
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SolomonVII

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Not really, Having faith in the Tao, for example, has real life experiential consequences in the martial artists breaking the brick with the head. Those who understand only in terms of physics often end up breaking the head with the brick instead. The vision usually starts as something beyond our present day circumstances and abilities
This is not to say that one cannot empirically discern the physical processes and mental conditioning that goes into the basic martial arts move. Fuller meaning also contains the purpose of such physical and mental preparations in order to exist on a higher plane of consciousness, which includes peace. Reducing the act to the physical act, while potential very useful, makes the violence the defining purpose as if the fuller Taoist or Buddhist philosophy of peace is tangential, rather than central, to the whole task.
Faith only orients us into the way of living that has a better form of life in our future as the ultimate goal. We see in Christ a better version of ourselves, the best even, and orient our life toward living his.
Faith is not the vision, but instead faith is the will to believe in the vision in order to realize it.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Not really, Having faith in the Tao, for example, has real life experiential consequences in the martial artists breaking the brick with the head. Those who understand only in terms of physics often end up breaking the head with the brick instead.

That's the result of training.
"Faith" will not turn you into a brick breaking martial artist.


This is not to say that one cannot empirically discern the physical processes and mental conditioning that goes into the basic martial arts move. Fuller meaning also contains the purpose of such physical and mental preparations in order to exist on a higher plane of consciousness, which includes peace.
Back in my competitive tennis days, before a match, I used to retreat somewhere quite by myself, preferably in the dark, where I would focus on controlling my breathing and mentally prepare myself for the match to come. I would enter what I called "warrior mode". And it sure helped.

There is nothing "supernatural" about this. There is nothing extra ordinary about the mental and even health benefits of meditation and alike. You call it "existing on a higher plane of consciousness", but those are just words. To me, it's just a mental state like any other. You call it "high consciousness". I called it "warrior mode".

I did that to clear the mind so that I could fully focus on the match and forget about that girl I had a crush on or that fight I had with my roommate.

It's just psychology.

Reducing the act to the physical act, while potential very useful, makes the violence the defining purpose as if the fuller Taoist or Buddhist philosophy of peace is tangential, rather than central, to the whole task.
Faith only orients us into the way of living that has a better form of life in our future as the ultimate goal. We see in Christ a better version of ourselves, the best even, and orient our life toward living his.
Faith is not the vision, but instead faith is the will to believe in the vision in order to realize it.

You attribute this stuff to supernatural things. I see no reason to do that at all.
It's still all physical at bottom. "faith" has nothing to do with this.
 
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dlamberth

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This is dishonest. No, "billions" don't agree on that at all.
Many of them see very different gods then you do and they see it in very different ways.

Even just within your own religion, there would be disagreement about it.
A quick look on this forum alone will already attest to that.
The handfull of christians we have here, can't even agree on it.

And please, let's stop pretending as if people believing things says anything more then them just believing things.

Even if 100% of people believe something, that doesn't mean that that thing is also true.

So, even if I would grant you that "billions" agree (which is not the case), then all you are doing is just engaging in the fallacious argument ad populum.
I fully understand why you don't understand. The modern Western consciousness has left behind the sense of the whole, which effects directly how we experience the Divine. The Western mind is greatly influenced by the Greek perspective, which in turn had a great influence on the the Abrahamic Religions view of God being Transcendent.

Now you can rightly argue that I'm "not" presenting a correct view of Christianity. But when you say that my comment about a Billion people knowing God as Immanent is "dishonest", that's just plain wrong. Just look around at the world. I don't think I'd be too wrong to say that it could be several Billion who know God as Immanent. I'm unable to think of of any other spiritual trajectories anywhere in the world where God is not experienced as Immanent. Maybe Zoroastrians? I don't know on that one. But it's like the Abrahamic religions are pretty much alone in this.

As an aside, the Christians I'm aware of that experience the Divine as immanent are for the most part Mystics, who by the way also get their clue from the Bible.
 
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Silmarien

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I fully understand why you don't understand. The modern Western consciousness has left behind the sense of the whole, which effects directly how we experience the Divine. The Western mind is greatly influenced by the Greek perspective, which in turn had a great influence on the the Abrahamic Religions view of God being Transcendent.

Now you can rightly argue that I'm "not" presenting a correct view of Christianity. But when you say that my comment about a Billion people knowing God as Immanent is "dishonest", that's just plain wrong. Just look around at the world. I don't think I'd be too wrong to say that it could be several Billion who know God as Immanent. I'm unable to think of of any other spiritual trajectories anywhere in the world where God is not experienced as Immanent. Maybe Zoroastrians? I don't know on that one. But it's like the Abrahamic religions are pretty much alone in this.

As an aside, the Christians I'm aware of that experience the Divine as immanent are for the most part Mystics, who by the way also get their clue from the Bible.

You're misrepresenting Christianity if you're claiming that it teaches that God is only transcendent. Traditionally, he is conceived of as both transcendent and immanent, so if people are ignoring the concept of immanence, they're departing from the historical understanding. There's a tension there--that which is utterly transcendent is also in some sense your innermost self. The former doesn't swallow up the latter.

I think what sets it apart from other religions theologically, aside from the whole Incarnation thing, is that it's ultimately dualistic instead of nondualistic. There is a distinction between God and universe, God and self, but that doesn't mean that the individual does not "receive" their being from God, so to speak. Immanence is still maintained, at least in more traditional theology. Not so sure about those branches of Protestantism that are openly hostile to Greek thought. (The modern Western mind is actually not very Greek at all. People have a hard time wrapping their heads around that way of thinking.)
 
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devolved

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Try "nothingness" in an experiential setting, maybe through contemplation or meditation. I think experiencing it from that perspective might give an understanding to your question.

I've done some extremely wild psych experiments on myself back in the days, including not sleeping for 3 full days, going blindfolded for a week, and doing meditation marathons for 8hrs at a time after some prolonged fasting.

In light of that... I still have no slightest clue what you are talking about :). Do you?

Can anyone truly describe God? Not really. If a person tried, they would never hit the mark. If they never hit the mark, what are they describing than?

Well, we never claim to describe God. We are describing our conceptual understanding, and as such there isn't anything problematic to "never hit the mark" as long as it's coherent-enough for us to function in our reality. We can barely describe ourselves with some degree of accuracy.

The question in the OP actually relates to what are we describing? Are we really describing a historical person, or are we describing an personified idea(L) ? That distinction is important.
 
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dlamberth

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Sorry for this. I dialed into the Immanence focus because it's just something I've been contemplating on a lot lately. And your giving me opportunity for further exploration. So bear with me please.

You're misrepresenting Christianity if you're claiming that it teaches that God is only transcendent. Traditionally, he is conceived of as both transcendent and immanent, so if people are ignoring the concept of immanence, they're departing from the historical understanding. There's a tension there--that which is utterly transcendent is also in some sense your innermost self. The former doesn't swallow up the latter.

Several questions come up.
1. You used the word "conceived". The act of "conceiving" makes me think of mental activity. One where we don't really know, but it's what we think something looks like. There's a deeper way to look at something like Immanence.

Immanence can be experienced as verb. It's alive and vibrant. It can be touched and a person can be touched by it. So if you look at it from that angle, and many do, Immanence is to be experienced, maybe even lived. Which means that it's not a concept at all.

2. Does Immanence of God reach into ones innermost self only as you described? Was that a concept? Does it reach into the Earth and maybe even into Life itSelf, or out to the furthest edge of the Cosmos, penetrating everything that exist? Those may seem like concept questions, but I don't mean them as such. I keep thinking that it's more like an Immanence a little bit that Christianity has. That's what I'm exploring here.

3. Lastly, if Immanence is within one's innermost self, does that make us gods? (little g) Our Soul is God breathed. Right? It's kind of like asking: Where does God reside?

There's a lot in Immanence to look at.
 
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Silmarien

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Sorry for this. I dialed into the Immanence focus because it's just something I've been contemplating on a lot lately. And your giving me opportunity for further exploration. So bear with me please.



Several questions come up.
1. You used the word "conceived". The act of "conceiving" makes me think of mental activity. One where we don't really know, but it's what we think something looks like. There's a deeper way to look at something like Immanence.

Immanence can be experienced as verb. It's alive and vibrant. It can be touched and a person can be touched by it. So if you look at it from that angle, and many do, Immanence is to be experienced, maybe even lived. Which means that it's not a concept at all.

2. Does Immanence of God reach into ones innermost self only as you described? Was that a concept? Does it reach into the Earth and maybe even into Life itSelf, or out to the furthest edge of the Cosmos, penetrating everything that exist? Those may seem like concept questions, but I don't mean them as such. I keep thinking that it's more like an Immanence a little bit that Christianity has. That's what I'm exploring here.

3. Lastly, if Immanence is within one's innermost self, does that make us gods? (little g) Our Soul is God breathed. Right? It's kind of like asking: Where does God reside?

There's a lot in Immanence to look at.

1. I use the word "conceive" because I'm working at the theoretical level. Transcendence and immanence are both concepts--God is perceived as simultaneously beyond the material world and present within at as that which is sustaining it in being from moment to moment. This is a pretty orthodox picture of God's relationship with physical reality.

Immanence is not a verb. It's a noun, and it is conceptual. It's a piece of language, and all language is representational. This does not rule out direct experience, but you're playing with language in a way that's not legitimate by equating that with immanence. And I think you're also drawing a sharp line between conceptual and experiential knowledge--scholasticism and mysticism have always been complementary.

2. There is neither Earth, cosmos, nor life itself without God, so yes, immanence would apply to these things as well. I'm not sure how your question can be anything except conceptual, since again, language is conceptual.

3. I would not consider us gods, though I do like the Judeo-Christian teaching that we're made in God's image. I don't think that piece of divinity, if you want to put it that way, is something we possess, though, so while I think it's something we really ought to marvel at, I'm hesitant to deify ourselves over it.
 
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dlamberth

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Immanence is not a verb. It's a noun, and it is conceptual.
For people who do have God as their reality, Immanence is a Verb.
Otherwise God is a concept.
And granted for many, that's what God is.

You brought up the mystics and scholasticism as being complementary. That's true. But maybe not the way your thinking. It's not something I can explain other than Mystics often are very curious people. And they tend to take their curiosity in different places. For instance, as experiencing God all around them as being very alive and vibrant in a Verb sort of way. The way I see it is that there is reading books kind of scholasticism, and actually doing scholasticism. Probable both is ideal. But if you study the Mystics, you will see their doing the doing part is different. So different that Immanence becomes a Verb. The question I ask is what do they experience in Immanence such that it does becomes a Verb?

If you ever feel inclined, read "Braiding Sweetgrass" by Robin Wall Kimmerer. It's a story of Kimmerer's spiritual journey as she discovers her American Indian heritage. She's a trained Botanist so she had a long ways to go to get back to her Native roots. Things happened when she started to experience trees, plants and everything around her as a Verb. That's my point.
 
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Silmarien

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For people who do have God as their reality, Immanence is a Verb.
Otherwise God is a concept.
And granted for many, that's what God is.

No, it's not. Immanence is still a noun, unless you think you can coherently use it in a sentence as a verb. Mysticism does not make conceptual language non-conceptual, and recognizing that language is conceptual doesn't mean that all knowledge must be so as well.

You've now defined God as Immanence (and thus reduced him to a concept in the process), and are using this as a weapon to attack anyone who thinks that theology can be approached conceptually instead of just through direct, intuitive experience. If you really like Meister Eckhart, perhaps you should explore the ways in which he was a scholastic instead of solely a mystic, because this anti-philosophical attack on conceptual language is really unnecessary.

You brought up the mystics and scholasticism as being complementary. That's true. But maybe not the way your thinking. It's not something I can explain other than Mystics often are very curious people. And they tend to take their curiosity in different places.

You do know that I started out with mysticism, right? Understanding linguistics doesn't mean I'm not familiar with mysticism as well. Mysticism doesn't need to involve the misuse of language. If you want to use the word "immanence" as a metaphor and talk about it as if it were a verb, then I have no problem with that, but declaring that it is a verb for those who know how to see properly is simply ridiculous. You are the one turning God into a concept here by insisting on certain linguistically charged conceptualizations.

The way I see it is that there is reading books kind of scholasticism, and actually doing scholasticism. Probable both is ideal. But if you study the Mystics, you will see their doing the doing part is different.

The scholastics and the mystics are the same people.
 
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dlamberth

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No, it's not. Immanence is still a noun, unless you think you can coherently use it in a sentence as a verb. Mysticism does not make conceptual language non-conceptual, and recognizing that language is conceptual doesn't mean that all knowledge must be so as well.
Mystics do use language differently. That's why they are often not understood and why they stay pretty private among themselves. The different language part of the Mystic is why so many have been punished, tried as heretics, imprisoned and some even burned at the stake, and today called incoherent.

You've now defined God as Immanence (and thus reduced him to a concept in the process), and are using this as a weapon to attack anyone who thinks that theology can be approached conceptually instead of just through direct, intuitive experience.
Your clearly missing the point. I'm not "defining" anything. I'm "experiencing"!

Conceptional knowing and inner experiential knowing are two different things that come from two different directions. For instance, a person can read about the Resurrection of Jesus Christ as a concept. Or they can actually can go through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ with Christ as One with Him.

If you really like Meister Eckhart, perhaps you should explore the ways in which he was a scholastic instead of solely a mystic, because this anti-philosophical attack on conceptual language is really unnecessary.
Meister Eckhart was accused of heresy and was tried as such in large part because the language he used wasn't understood by those in power. I'm being reminded here of why Mystics are not understood and why they stay silent.

Yes, Eckhart was a scholastic, I'd say even a genus. But he was also a great Mystic who would go inward and experience thing's like: "The Word lies hidden in the Soul, unknown and unheard unless room is made for it in the ground of hearing, otherwise it is not heard. All voices and sounds must cease and there must be pure stillness within, a still silence".

As an aside, Meister Eckhart teaches that every creature is a Word of God. And where "Christ is all and in all". Eckhart insisted that revelation came from two volumes, one written in nature and one in the Bible. "God loves all creatures equally and fills them with his being", Eckhart writes. I take that as an example of Immanence experienced as alive, vibrant and full of life with in Life itSelf.

You do know that I started out with mysticism, right? Understanding linguistics doesn't mean I'm not familiar with mysticism as well. Mysticism doesn't need to involve the misuse of language. If you want to use the word "immanence" as a metaphor and talk about it as if it were a verb, then I have no problem with that, but declaring that it is a verb for those who know how to see properly is simply ridiculous. You are the one turning God into a concept here by insisting on certain linguistically charged conceptualizations.
I don't think I said anything about seeing Immanence as a Verb as being the "proper" way to see it. What I'm saying is that's the way a Mystic would "experience" it. They see things differently. With your history of mysticism you than are aware of the "experiential" aspect of how Mystics work, right? Have you put yourself into a bee flying around flowers? Or maybe even into the Heart of Christ?

Here's some other examples from Mystics themselves:
Hieldegard of Bingen talked about the "greening power of the Divine". That's what she saw in Nature that it best understood when taken as a Verb being experienced.

Pieerre Teilhard de Charden saw the essence of Christ with in an evolving Universe. It's a Cosmic Christ perspective that is best understood when taken as a Verb being experienced.

Mother Teresa of Calcutta has taken a beating here in this forum, but the following story about one of her sisters that I came across in "The Inner Eye of Love". by William Johnson is an example of Immanence as something other than a Noun.
“During the mass,” I said, “you saw that the priest touched the body of Christ with great love and tenderness. When you touch the poor today, you too will be touching the body of Christ. Give them the same love and tenderness.” When they return several hours later, the new sister came up to me, her face shining with joy, “I have been touching the body of Christ of three hours,“ she said. I asked her what she had done, “Just as we arrived, the sister brought in a man covered with maggots. He had been picked up from drain. I have been taking care of him, I have been touching Christ. I know it was him,” she said.

The scholastics and the mystics are the same people.
That's a rare thing actually. Most scholastics don't have a clue of mysticism. That's because they mainly work in the head and have no clue about knowledge gained from their inner experience, or gnosis (little g). Moving out of the head and into inner experience is why Mystics such as Eckhart use Apophatic Divinity as a tool to get there.

There is one scholastic that very much was a Mystic. And that's Einstein. I've read where he would put himself into his equations and ride them to see where they went.
 
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Silmarien

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Mystics do use language differently. That's why they are often not understood and why they stay pretty private among themselves. The different language part of the Mystic is why so many have been punished, tried as heretics, imprisoned and some even burned at the stake, and today called incoherent.

I'm not calling what you're saying incoherent because I find mystical language difficult to understand. You're taking theological vocabulary and being purposefully obscurantist with it, tearing down grammatical categories in the process. Perhaps a talented poet could do this in a meaningful manner, but simply declaring "immanence" to be a verb makes no sense.

If you would like to demonstrate otherwise, you are welcome to use it in a sentence as a verb. You can start by explaining whether "immanence" is a transitive or intransitive verb, because I'd love to know whether or not we can immanence other objects.

Your clearly missing the point. I'm not "defining" anything. I'm "experiencing"!

No, you're defining things. You're saying that we have to recognize that immanence is a verb in order to have God as a reality instead of as a concept. Why is the grammatical status of the word "immanence" a requirement for mystical experience?

Meister Eckhart was accused of heresy and was tried as such in large part because the language he used wasn't understood by those in power. I'm being reminded here of why Mystics are not understood and why they stay silent.

Don't play the victim card here. You are the one looking down on everything that isn't mystical experience as second rate and dividing the world sharply into mystics and non-mystics. It is not that simple, and to claim that there are sharp lines between Christian theology and Christian mysticism is just inaccurate. This does not mean that people have to use theological terms in as loose a fashion as you do in order to view God as something other than a concept.

You are being totalitarian here and then acting persecuted about it. And I think you're also presenting a very black and white picture of the Eckhart heresy accusations, since there are tons of factors involved in something like that.

As an aside, Meister Eckhart teaches that every creature is a Word of God. And where "Christ is all and in all". Eckhart insisted that revelation came from two volumes, one written in nature and one in the Bible. "God loves all creatures equally and fills them with his being", Eckhart writes. I take that as an example of Immanence experienced as alive, vibrant and full of life with in Life itSelf.

It is very normal within Catholicism to say that there are two books, the Bible and nature, so this is certainly not unique to Eckhart. I have no problem saying that there is an experiential dimension to divine immanence. I do have a problem saying that immanence is a verb, however, since it's not.

I don't think I said anything about seeing Immanence as a Verb as being the "proper" way to see it. What I'm saying is that's the way a Mystic would "experience" it. They see things differently. With your history of mysticism you than are aware of the "experiential" aspect of how Mystics work, right? Have you put yourself into a bee flying around flowers? Or maybe even into the Heart of Christ?

Actually, yes. Putting myself in animals is the sort of thing I do. This doesn't mean that I experience nouns as verbs, though. There is no conflict between mysticism and correct syntax.

That's a rare thing actually. Most scholastics don't have a clue of mysticism. That's because they mainly work in the head and have no clue about knowledge gained from their inner experience, or gnosis (little g). Moving out of the head and into inner experience is why Mystics such as Eckhart use Apophatic Divinity as a tool to get there.

Perhaps it is you who doesn't have a clue about what scholasticism is? I don't know why you would think that people associated with religious orders would have no understanding of contemplation or inner experience. It's pretty normal to be able to operate both within the realm of conceptual knowledge and within that of direct experience. Apophatic theology does come up regularly also.
 
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dlamberth

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I'm not calling what you're saying incoherent because I find mystical language difficult to understand. You're taking theological vocabulary and being purposefully obscurantist with it, tearing down grammatical categories in the process. Perhaps a talented poet could do this in a meaningful manner, but simply declaring "immanence" to be a verb makes no sense.
I've tried to give example of Immanence experienced as a Verb. Even with that you keep saying no.

If you would like to demonstrate otherwise, you are welcome to use it in a sentence as a verb. You can start by explaining whether "immanence" is a transitive or intransitive verb, because I'd love to know whether or not we can immanence other objects.
Immanence in Creation.

But also, you'll laugh at this, Creation can also be seen as a Verb by the mystic. I think that's how one would talk about Cosmic Christ for instance. Would that satisfy your Immanence of other objects request?

No, you're defining things. You're saying that we have to recognize that immanence is a verb in order to have God as a reality instead of as a concept. Why is the grammatical status of the word "immanence" a requirement for mystical experience?
I feel that what I'm trying to say is that Immanence can be experienced. It's not a requirement to do so, but doing so does give a deeper and fuller flavor of the Divine with in this Creation. Again, that's not a requirement.

Don't play the victim card here. You are the one looking down on everything that isn't mystical experience as second rate and dividing the world sharply into mystics and non-mystics. It is not that simple, and to claim that there are sharp lines between Christian theology and Christian mysticism is just inaccurate. This does not mean that people have to use theological terms in as loose a fashion as you do in order to view God as something other than a concept.
Your correct in one account, I do question concepts because with God, if a person want's to have God as their absolute reality, they have to move pass concepts. For instance, it would be a messy relationship with my wife if I viewed her as a concept.

I've not made any claims that there are sharp lines between Christian theology and Christian mysticism. I have no idea where you get that from. To be clear, my claim is that it's through the mystic experience that theology becomes alive, vibrant and full of life.

For example in quoting the Poet Dorothee Soelle, "The goal of the Christian religion is not the idolizing of Christ, not christology, but that we all are in Christ, as a mystical expression goes, that we have a part in the life of Christ".

You are being totalitarian here and then acting persecuted about it. And I think you're also presenting a very black and white picture of the Eckhart heresy accusations, since there are tons of factors involved in something like that.
Agreed. There was more going on, the Inquisition for one, politics for another. But clearly the language of Meister Eckhart was not understood. St John of the Crosss had the same problems as did Mother Teresa of Availia as also did the Beguines Sisterhood in Eckhart's day and so many more.

It is very normal within Catholicism to say that there are two books, the Bible and nature, so this is certainly not unique to Eckhart. I have no problem saying that there is an experiential dimension to divine immanence. I do have a problem saying that immanence is a verb, however, since it's not.
In this exchange with you, and I do thank you for it, I've been wondering if when you started with mysticism as you say, was it as a scholar or was it as a Mystic?

Actually, yes. Putting myself in animals is the sort of thing I do. This doesn't mean that I experience nouns as verbs, though. There is no conflict between mysticism and correct syntax.
What you know of as nouns, even the Indigenous experience as Verbs. Mystics are not alone in this.

Perhaps it is you who doesn't have a clue about what scholasticism is? I don't know why you would think that people associated with religious orders would have no understanding of contemplation or inner experience. It's pretty normal to be able to operate both within the realm of conceptual knowledge and within that of direct experience. Apophatic theology does come up regularly also.
You keep coming up with stuff out of thin air. I have no idea where people associated with religious orders comment comes from. Just so you know, I hang with Trappist Monks. I'm very fortunate that Our Lady of Guadalupe Trappist Abbey is a 45min. drive from my house. Yes they operate with conceptional knowledge...but they do not stop there. Which is what I believe your doing with Immanence.
 
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Silmarien

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I've tried to give example of Immanence experienced as a Verb. Even with that you keep saying no.

No, you haven't. Until you can use the word "immanence" as a verb in a sentence, you have not given an example of immanence operating as a verb. Can we immanence each other? I have no idea what that would even mean.

Immanence in Creation.

But also, you'll laugh at this, Creation can also be seen as a Verb by the mystic. I think that's how one would talk about Cosmic Christ for instance. Would that satisfy your Immanence of other objects request?

"Immanence in Creation" does not involve the use of the word "immanence" as a verb. It is still a noun, as is creation, for that matter. Michelangelo did not creation the Sistine Chapel. If you want to say that Creation is active and participatory rather than passive, that is appropriate and I would actually agree with it. That doesn't make creation a verb, though.

I think I know what you're saying. You're insisting on a nonsensical way to describe it, though, so it's hard to be sure. I do not like the abuse of language.

I feel that what I'm trying to say is that Immanence can be experienced. It's not a requirement to do so, but doing so does give a deeper and fuller flavor of the Divine with in this Creation. Again, that's not a requirement.

That is fine. That doesn't make it a verb, though.

Your correct in one account, I do question concepts because with God, if a person want's to have God as their absolute reality, they have to move pass concepts.

I'm unaware of anyone who would contest that. Obviously sitting back and contemplating the idea of God instead of being open to the reality of God is a Bad Idea. What theologian has ever said otherwise?

In this exchange with you, and I do thank you for it, I've been wondering if when you started with mysticism as you say, was it as a scholar or was it as a Mystic?

Neither, really, though my temperament lended itself more to the second.

You keep coming up with stuff out of thin air. I have no idea where people associated with religious orders comment comes from. Just so you know, I hang with Trappist Monks. I'm very fortunate that Our Lady of Guadalupe Trappist Abbey is a 45min. drive from my house. Yes they operate with conceptional knowledge...but they do not stop there. Which is what I believe your doing with Immanence.

Who do you think the scholastics were? They were primarily Dominicans and Franciscans, which means people associated with religious orders. I don't know why you think that Dominicans and Franciscans would not value contemplation.

I also don't know why you think I stop with conceptual knowledge. This whole conversation started because I pretty explicitly brought up intuitive knowledge and some ideas drawn from the mystical understanding of reality. Immanence is a concept, but concepts often refer to real things, and in this case I do think that it refers to something that can be directly encountered. That does not make the word "immanence" anything more than a conceptual representation, though, no matter how much you'd like to deify the word.
 
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DogmaHunter

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I fully understand why you don't understand. The modern Western consciousness has left behind the sense of the whole, which effects directly how we experience the Divine. The Western mind is greatly influenced by the Greek perspective, which in turn had a great influence on the the Abrahamic Religions view of God being Transcendent.

This is all just abstract word salad. Try something concrete.

Now you can rightly argue that I'm "not" presenting a correct view of Christianity. But when you say that my comment about a Billion people knowing God as Immanent is "dishonest", that's just plain wrong.

It's not.

Just look around at the world

I do. I see hundreds, thousands, of different cultures with even more religions and gods being invented in each of those cultures.


I don't think I'd be too wrong to say that it could be several Billion who know God as Immanent

Plenty of them will see this god very very differently then you do. So to claim that you are looking at the same thing, seems wrong right of the bat.

Secondly, it's not "know", it's "believe". And as I pointed out already, "beliefs" are just that: beliefs.

Thirdly, as I also pointed out, this is just a fallacious argument from populatiry.


I'm unable to think of of any other spiritual trajectories anywhere in the world where God is not experienced as Immanent. Maybe Zoroastrians? I don't know on that one. But it's like the Abrahamic religions are pretty much alone in this.

As an aside, the Christians I'm aware of that experience the Divine as immanent are for the most part Mystics, who by the way also get their clue from the Bible.
They get their clues from lots of places: bibles, imagination, hearsay, dreams,....

In short: from just about all sources, except the one that actually matters: objective evidence.
 
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