What do you mean by "Trinity"?

[Lazarus Short]

My view is that God is multi-layered and multi-dimensional. As far as number, I know the Bible tells me there is Father, Son, and Seven Spirits. That makes nine, a trinity of trinities.

 

[Erose]

One distinction between the Divine Persons that gets overlooked is the fact that their knowledge of their relations is distinct. I.e. The Father knows that He isn't the Son; the Son knows He isn't the Father or the Spirit, which all three above is explicitly found in Scripture. One would assume that the Father also knows He isn't the Spirit, and the Spirit knows He isn't the Father or the Son. This distinction of relational perception is IMO important; but does not seem to be a matter of discussion even among the Fathers.


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[Erose]

My view is that God is multi-layered and multi-dimensional. As far as number, I know the Bible tells me there is Father, Son, and Seven Spirits. That makes nine, a trinity of trinities.

The Bible does not teach that the seven spirit are God. Just because something is a spirit does not make it divine.

I have to admit that this is the first I've heard of such a heresy.


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[ViaCrucis]

I think the phrasing "one God and three persons" is probably preferable. God is one and three. One in ousia, three in hypostasis. The threeness refers to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; the oneness to God's being, God's ousia; of which the three, indeed, are. Not a multiplicity of ousia, but an absolute oneness of ousia. What the Father is, so is the Son; what the Father and Son are, so is the Holy Spirit. The one God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hoghead1]

I think the phrasing "one God and three persons" is probably preferable. God is one and three. One in ousia, three in hypostasis. The threeness refers to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; the oneness to God's being, God's ousia; of which the three, indeed, are. Not a multiplicity of ousia, but an absolute oneness of ousia. What the Father is, so is the Son; what the Father and Son are, so is the Holy Spirit. The one God.

-CryptoLutheran

It sounds like you are saying there are three separate personalities who all share the same nature, that is, divinity or Deity. The problem is that still gives you three gods. Wotan, Flicka, and Friea are all deity, but there are still three gods here. Three men all have in common human nature, but there are still three men.

 

[Hoghead1]

One distinction between the Divine Persons that gets overlooked is the fact that their knowledge of their relations is distinct. I.e. The Father knows that He isn't the Son; the Son knows He isn't the Father or the Spirit, which all three above is explicitly found in Scripture. One would assume that the Father also knows He isn't the Spirit, and the Spirit knows He isn't the Father or the Son. This distinction of relational perception is IMO important; but does not seem to be a matter of discussion even among the Fathers.


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Yes, but that simply yields tritheism.

 

[Hoghead1]

My view is that God is multi-layered and multi-dimensional. As far as number, I know the Bible tells me there is Father, Son, and Seven Spirits. That makes nine, a trinity of trinities.

Where did you get the seven spirits? They were never identified as Deity. Also, in what way is God multi-dimensional?

 

[Hoghead1]

Tritheism by definition would require three beings; the Christian understanding of the Trinity is that there is one being.

It seems that you are trying to establish a materialistic model for the Trinity. Which obviously won't work.


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If you go on the notion that the Trinity represents three separate, unique personalities, then you definitely have three gods. If you truly believe there is but one God, then there must be one overall personality there.

 

[Erose]

Yes, but that simply yields tritheism.

Only if there are three divine beings. Which there isn't.

 

[Erose]

If you go on the notion that the Trinity represents three separate, unique personalities, then you definitely have three gods. If you truly believe there is but one God, then there must be one overall personality there.

Nope, you are failing to see the point. Three gods requires three beings. There is nothing that mandates that a personality is a being, only that a being may or may not have a personality.

 

[Hoghead1]

Only if there are three divine beings. Which there isn't.

Yes, but you posit three divine personalities, right? That's tritheism.

 

[Erose]

It sounds like you are saying there are three separate personalities who all share the same nature, that is, divinity or Deity. The problem is that still gives you three gods. Wotan, Flicka, and Friea are all deity, but there are still three gods here. Three men all have in common human nature, but there are still three men.

Woten, Flicka, and Friea are three divine beings so yes they would be three gods if they existed.

 

[Lazarus Short]

The Bible does not teach that the seven spirit are God. Just because something is a spirit does not make it divine.

I have to admit that this is the first I've heard of such a heresy.

We all know of the Spirit of Life mentioned in the creation of Adam. Now if we go all the way to the other end of the Bible, we find mention of the Seven Spirits of God in the Revelation. They are listed in Isaiah 11:2. So you see, the Bible does teach it, but to pick it up, we must connect widely-seprated dots, and since the Bible teaches it, how is it a heresy? If the commonly-accepted Holy Spirit is God, why not the other six? No, I can't wrap my mind around it adequately, but I just accept it.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Where did you get the seven spirits? They were never identified as Deity. Also, in what way is God multi-dimensional?

They are mentioned more than once in the Revelation, and listed in Isaiah 11:2. If the Holy Spirit is Deity, why not the other six of the Seven Spirits of God? As for multi-dimensionality, I remember realizing that we are multi-layered and multi-dimensional, and being created in the image of God, I guessed that God is too. It may be an overreach, but I think not. A Being that knows the end from the beginning almost must be multi-dimensional, IMHO.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Wotan, Flicka, and Friea are all deity, but there are still three gods here. Three men all have in common human nature, but there are still three men.

And that's the difference, those are three gods, and there are many men. I'm talking about the Trinity, one God. Not three. One ousia, not three.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Erose]

We all know of the Spirit of Life mentioned in the creation of Adam. Now if we go all the way to the other end of the Bible, we find mention of the Seven Spirits of God in the Revelation. They are listed in Isaiah 11:2. So you see, the Bible does teach it, but to pick it up, we must connect widely-seprated dots, and since the Bible teaches it, how is it a heresy? If the commonly-accepted Holy Spirit is God, why not the other six? No, I can't wrap my mind around it adequately, but I just accept it.

You have to connect those dots with very curvy lines my friend, and no the Bible doesn't teach this.

 

[Tree of Life]

Here's a very famous visual representation of the Trinity that I think sums up the doctrine nicely:

 

[Lazarus Short]

You have to connect those dots with very curvy lines my friend, and no the Bible doesn't teach this.

I can only guess that you did not follow up and search it out yourself. The whole trouble with creeds and statements of doctrine is that they reveal things, but conceal things not mentioned. An unbiased read of the Bible can lead one to unexpected riches.

 

[BobRyan]

The Trinity is a central Christian teaching and a very problematic one, always was. It is no simple matter. For example. from your above formulation, I came away wondering how your view is anything other than tritheism.

The question is - how do you define "Trinity" - not 'do you like the doctrine' -

This is about stating what it is --

 

[BobRyan]

I believe the answer is different for East and West. For a traditional Western Definition I checked the Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org). Here's what they say:

"Inasmuch as the relations, and they alone, are distinct realities in the Godhead, it follows that the Divine Persons are none other than these relations. The Father is the Divine Paternity, the Son the Divine Filiation, the Holy Spirit the Divine Procession. Here it must be borne in mind that the relations are not mere accidental determinations as these abstract terms might suggest. Whatever is in God must needs be subsistent. He is the Supreme Substance, transcending the divisions of the Aristotelean categories. Hence, at one and the same time He is both substance and relation. (How it is that there should be in God real relations, though it is altogether impossible that quantity or quality should be found in Him, is a question involving a discussion regarding the metaphysics of relations, which would be out of place in an article such as the present.)"

I think this is pretty far from tri-theism.

While I appreciate the fact that the quote you gave appears to allow for One God in three persons "the Divine Persons are none other than these relations. The Father is the Divine Paternity, the Son the Divine Filiation, the Holy Spirit... " much of the rest of it is related to "the metaphysics of relations, which would be out of place" in a straightforward topic and definition such as we have here.


And of course - lawyer-eeze looks like hand waiving as in -- "He is the supreme substance".

Who on earth goes around saying "God is the supreme substance"? - i doubt we have heard much of that on this forum.

What is more "transcending the divisions of the Aristotelean categories" - looks like more hand waiving.

But a handy quote all the same.