What do you lose by not being Orthodox?

[Dorothea]

The ritual of the Church reminds us that God is unchanging and calls us away from ourselves - from our need to be entertained or our desire for worship to "speak to us" as though it were at all about us.

Worship isn't about you. It is about God. That's it. You gain whatever benefit from worship that you gain precisely because it calls you OUT of yourself. It is a blessed invitation for a couple hours, just a couple, NOT to think of yourself or your needs, your desires, your aesthetics, your tastes, your opinions, your pride.

And that's what this is: pride.

If you dislike the Orthodox liturgy, then that isn't a reason to stop attending or not to convert. That's actually a GIFT from God to you - that is God inviting you DEEPER into worship since it is precisely at the point that worship stops speaking to us that it can begin to point towards God.

If the people around you are hypocrites, look to yourself first and correct your own hypocrisy. Even still, let them be an ascesis. Loving those who are perfect and sinless is (ought to be) easy; loving those who wrong you or whom you see wronging others - that is hard. Their sin becomes an occasion for you to practice salvation - to practice responding to evil NOT with evil but with LOVE.

Disliking liturgical aesthetics or the people one worships with are not valid reasons to avoid or cease attending services. They are, in fact, REALLY GOOD reasons to keep going, and are gifts given by God if one can change one's perspective and see them through the eyes of faith.

I write this as someone who, at many times (and for long stretches) dislikes the aesthetics of the services. I LONG for those times - I actually sigh a sigh of relief when I'm finally at a point where the service has bored me. It takes longer and longer the more services I attend, but finally, when I reach that point - when the ascesis of the services allows me to let go of my ego and pride - at THAT point I can start to pray, and really pray, because finally, at that point, some small part of my inner self has shut up enough to hear what God might have to say.

Orthodox worship uses beauty, yes, but it isn't about beauty. It functions as an ascesis to quiet the heart of the attendee not so that they may experience something ecstatic, but so that they may lay their selfishness aside and enter into an authentic worship of God. It uses beauty, it uses ascesis, but it is ABOUT God, and God alone. It is not about us.

Very few things are about us.

 

[Dorothea]

Thanks. That is a different way of looking at the liturgy which sounds sensible. In practice, it didn't work that way for me. I suppose it is like the Indian sweat lodges, spiritual dances, chanting, meditation, yoga, etc. I suspect different methods work for different people.

On the hypocrisy issue, I wasn't concerned as much about hypocrisy in other people; I was concerned about hypocrisy in me. As I was trying to be "Orthodox" that was hypocrisy. All the stuff that Orthodox are supposed to do was doing that to me.

Also, I think God has been sending me hints to get away from Orthodoxy. But who knows. Maybe I hear the message I want to hear.

Well, to be totally honest, God wouldn't be telling you to get away from Orthodoxy. That would be the enemy. There have been many experiences where people went to the Orthodox liturgies and wanted to flee. This is NOT from God. The enemy doesn't want the person in His Church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Tremendous...

The ritual of the Church reminds us that God is unchanging and calls us away from ourselves - from our need to be entertained or our desire for worship to "speak to us" as though it were at all about us.

Worship isn't about you. It is about God. That's it. You gain whatever benefit from worship that you gain precisely because it calls you OUT of yourself. It is a blessed invitation for a couple hours, just a couple, NOT to think of yourself or your needs, your desires, your aesthetics, your tastes, your opinions, your pride.

And that's what this is: pride.

If you dislike the Orthodox liturgy, then that isn't a reason to stop attending or not to convert. That's actually a GIFT from God to you - that is God inviting you DEEPER into worship since it is precisely at the point that worship stops speaking to us that it can begin to point towards God.

If the people around you are hypocrites, look to yourself first and correct your own hypocrisy. Even still, let them be an ascesis. Loving those who are perfect and sinless is (ought to be) easy; loving those who wrong you or whom you see wronging others - that is hard. Their sin becomes an occasion for you to practice salvation - to practice responding to evil NOT with evil but with LOVE.

Disliking liturgical aesthetics or the people one worships with are not valid reasons to avoid or cease attending services. They are, in fact, REALLY GOOD reasons to keep going, and are gifts given by God if one can change one's perspective and see them through the eyes of faith.

I write this as someone who, at many times (and for long stretches) dislikes the aesthetics of the services. I LONG for those times - I actually sigh a sigh of relief when I'm finally at a point where the service has bored me. It takes longer and longer the more services I attend, but finally, when I reach that point - when the ascesis of the services allows me to let go of my ego and pride - at THAT point I can start to pray, and really pray, because finally, at that point, some small part of my inner self has shut up enough to hear what God might have to say.

Orthodox worship uses beauty, yes, but it isn't about beauty. It functions as an ascesis to quiet the heart of the attendee not so that they may experience something ecstatic, but so that they may lay their selfishness aside and enter into an authentic worship of God. It uses beauty, it uses ascesis, but it is ABOUT God, and God alone. It is not about us.

Very few things are about us.

 

[Macarius]

Thanks. That is a different way of looking at the liturgy which sounds sensible. In practice, it didn't work that way for me. I suppose it is like the Indian sweat lodges, spiritual dances, chanting, meditation, yoga, etc. I suspect different methods work for different people.

Did you dislike and / or feel put-off or bored during services?

If so, then it worked perfectly.

 

[Knee V]

Everyone who is seeking God is on a path, or road, to finding Him. When you drive down any given road there are things put in place to help you stay on the road and know how to get to your destination: pavement, lane dividers, signs, guard rails, lights, etc. The more of those things there are, the better chance you have of staying on the road. But the more of those things you take away, the more likely it is that you might lose your way, veer off the road, and not get to your destination.

What one loses by not being Orthodox is all these "helps" on the road. All that Christ has given the Church was given to her in order to help us stay on the right road, going in the right direction. The Scriptures, Councils, icons, incense, etc, are there in order to help us stay on the path of finding the True God and coming to know Him. The farther one goes from Orthodoxy, the more of these aids one loses, and the more likely it is that one will no longer be seeking the true Christ.

To be sure, just because one is Orthodox doesn't mean that one will stay on the road. I can ignore the signs and drive off the road thinking I know my way better than the Church. Also, many people who are not Orthodox are on a path to finding Christ, and just because someone doesn't have all the benefits that Christ has given to the Church doesn't mean that they will necessarily veer off the road or that they won't reach their destination. So not only can we not say that non-Orthodox will not be saved, but we also cannot say that all Orthodox will be saved. The signs and guardrails on the road do not guarantee a successful trip, nor does the lack thereof guarantee a disaster.

 

[Nephi]

Since you're thinking in a way of "it's all about how I feel," then nothing anyone says will make you feel differently. Honestly, it seems more like you're just trying to justify the conclusions you've reached than genuinely trying to ask for help. I don't mean this as criticism, but I don't think this thread has any real purpose.

 

[cloudyday2]

Since you're thinking in a way of "it's all about how I feel," then nothing anyone says will make you feel differently. Honestly, it seems more like you're just trying to justify the conclusions you've reached than genuinely trying to ask for help. I don't mean this as criticism, but I don't think this thread has any real purpose.

Hmmm. I'm sorry you feel that way.

I started the thread, because I have some concerns about participating in communion at a non-Orthodox church. So I wanted to understand the Orthodox view of non-Orthodox.

I think the responses helped with that question.

 

[Nephi]

Hmmm. I'm sorry you feel that way.

I started the thread, because I have some concerns about participating in communion at a non-Orthodox church. So I wanted to understand the Orthodox view of non-Orthodox.

I think the responses helped with that question.

Well then I misunderstood the purpose - sorry. Also, sorry again if my previous remark came off rather snide. Re-reading it, it doesn't come across as polite at all.

 

[cloudyday2]

Well then I misunderstood the purpose - sorry. Also, sorry again if my previous remark came off rather snide. Re-reading it, it doesn't come across as polite at all.

No problem. I think you're right that the thread was getting off topic into a debate.