What do you like to see in Christian fantasy / sci-fi ?

HatGuy

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I'm a writer and have recently been exploring what's happening in the Christian sci-fi and fantasy scene. Enclave Publishing seems to be leading the space (or am I wrong)? I've gotten a few of their free books on my Kindle, but a lot of it seems to be aimed toward the YA market. I know that's a big market, so I can't blame them, but I'm wondering - is this it?

The reason for my main question is I was wondering what Christians actually WANT to read. Most of us probably see "Christian fiction" and think, meh. Yet we're happy to read C.S. Lewis which is quite obviously Christian, IMO. I'm wondering if that's because he's just famous, or if whatever else is out there is just not good enough. What would it take to actually make Christians give Christian fiction a chance? I'm obviously asking because I'm a writer and would love to be able to write the kind of novels ole Lewis did.

In my own fantasy novels I've tried to be a little more discreet than Lewis, but I worry that I just then appeal to no one. In my next book I'm thinking of being a little less discreet, but I'm not sure how to go about it. (P.S. - am I allowed to post a link here to my novels?).
 
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keith99

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I checked with my good friend Screwtape and he thought it would be amusing if I gave you what help I could. I wanted to be sure he would not be too upset with me sharing some things. He just said it will make the conquests all the sweeter!

Let's skip Narnia as it is a children's story and mainly a retelling for children (though well enough done that adults can enjoy it).

There is a modern (rather poor) imitation of Screwtape that has been touted on this board at least twice. I did not need any help from my infernal friends (yes I'm on speaking terms with a few, not just Screwtape) to see the obvious difference. Lewis took great care to limit sowing dissention. The imitation is an outright attack on the protestant Church by a Catholic writer. Where Lewis revealed Screwtapes strategy for sowing dissention he limited what he passed on to you Christians to divisions within the Anglican Church to avoid any chance of Lewis accidentally doing Screwtapes work for him. Lewis limited himself to divisions within 'his' side. He avoided any mention of or allusion to the Catholic Church lest he by the smallest of errors widened the split. Lewis also wrote about the temptations of average people, he held up a mirror and allowed individuals to see their own flaws, he did not accuse anyone. And since his readers would have to see the flaws they got a free half step towards correcting them.

Lewis had it a bit easier than you will. Today Christians have been trained to want adventure and justification. End time stories are all the rage and men get to see themselves as being on the winning side, good Christians now expect that. They will not like it if you hold up a mirror to their flaws or ask how might it be with a race that never fell. Screwtape and his fellows have done a fine job. I now see why he is not concerned with what little help I can give you.

Perhaps there is one small chance I can give you some education Screwtape had not thought about. He does tend to not focus as much on secular sources. You might want to read Inferno by Niven and Pournelle. Hmm and perhaps contrast it to The Great Divorce. Though do not even think of echoing what Lewis did there, Christians today would crucify you for looking at sexual issues as Lewis did there.

Lewis pretty much started with the standard of Science Fiction. Asking what if. What if there are beings who never fell, what if we could intercept Satan's communications.

Try to find an interesting what if from a Christian standpoint.

Heck how about just what if we do meet intelligent aliens. How might their ethics and religion(s) impact Christian thought. Hey! I just had an interesting thought. What if we met an alien race and they have only one religion? And I really mean only one. Just one sect and no dissent in a negative sense. You can decide if they have tails and horns and if they are bad or good.
 
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I checked with my good friend Screwtape and he thought it would be amusing if I gave you what help I could. I wanted to be sure he would not be too upset with me sharing some things. He just said it will make the conquests all the sweeter!

Let's skip Narnia as it is a children's story and mainly a retelling for children (though well enough done that adults can enjoy it).

There is a modern (rather poor) imitation of Screwtape that has been touted on this board at least twice. I did not need any help from my infernal friends (yes I'm on speaking terms with a few, not just Screwtape) to see the obvious difference. Lewis took great care to limit sowing dissention. The imitation is an outright attack on the protestant Church by a Catholic writer. Where Lewis revealed Screwtapes strategy for sowing dissention he limited what he passed on to you Christians to divisions within the Anglican Church to avoid any chance of Lewis accidentally doing Screwtapes work for him. Lewis limited himself to divisions within 'his' side. He avoided any mention of or allusion to the Catholic Church lest he by the smallest of errors widened the split. Lewis also wrote about the temptations of average people, he held up a mirror and allowed individuals to see their own flaws, he did not accuse anyone. And since his readers would have to see the flaws they got a free half step towards correcting them.

Lewis had it a bit easier than you will. Today Christians have been trained to want adventure and justification. End time stories are all the rage and men get to see themselves as being on the winning side, good Christians now expect that. They will not like it if you hold up a mirror to their flaws or ask how might it be with a race that never fell. Screwtape and his fellows have done a fine job. I now see why he is not concerned with what little help I can give you.

Perhaps there is one small chance I can give you some education Screwtape had not thought about. He does tend to not focus as much on secular sources. You might want to read Inferno by Niven and Pournelle. Hmm and perhaps contrast it to The Great Divorce. Though do not even think of echoing what Lewis did there, Christians today would crucify you for looking at sexual issues as Lewis did there.

Lewis pretty much started with the standard of Science Fiction. Asking what if. What if there are beings who never fell, what if we could intercept Satan's communications.

Try to find an interesting what if from a Christian standpoint.

Heck how about just what if we do meet intelligent aliens. How might their ethics and religion(s) impact Christian thought. Hey! I just had an interesting thought. What if we met an alien race and they have only one religion? And I really mean only one. Just one sect and no dissent in a negative sense. You can decide if they have tails and horns and if they are bad or good.
Loved this reply - thank you!

I think you're completely right about the flaws thing. These days we want our Christian heroes to be squeaky clean human beings who we can hold up as a standard. It's a pretty fatal theological flaw in pop-Christianity. Great insight, thank you!
 
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brinny

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Heroes, but not the superficially squeaky-clean kind necessarily
4chsmu1.gif
 
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brinny

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I'm a writer and have recently been exploring what's happening in the Christian sci-fi and fantasy scene. Enclave Publishing seems to be leading the space (or am I wrong)? I've gotten a few of their free books on my Kindle, but a lot of it seems to be aimed toward the YA market. I know that's a big market, so I can't blame them, but I'm wondering - is this it?

The reason for my main question is I was wondering what Christians actually WANT to read. Most of us probably see "Christian fiction" and think, meh. Yet we're happy to read C.S. Lewis which is quite obviously Christian, IMO. I'm wondering if that's because he's just famous, or if whatever else is out there is just not good enough. What would it take to actually make Christians give Christian fiction a chance? I'm obviously asking because I'm a writer and would love to be able to write the kind of novels ole Lewis did.

In my own fantasy novels I've tried to be a little more discreet than Lewis, but I worry that I just then appeal to no one. In my next book I'm thinking of being a little less discreet, but I'm not sure how to go about it. (P.S. - am I allowed to post a link here to my novels?).
i may not speak for most Christians, but i would like to read about "real-ness" and those who are fearless in the face of staunch and knee-shaking opposition, but stand their ground, and are astutly smart about it, bewcause of the deep-rooted conviction of what injustices arenot s'posed to be, and they might die in the process, but will, with their last breathe fight against tyranny and injustice.
 
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HatGuy

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i may not speak for most Christians, but i would like to read about "real-ness" and those who are fearless in the face of staunch and knee-shaking opposition, but stand their ground, and are astutly smart about it, bewcause of the deep-rooted conviction of what injustices arenot s'posed to be, and they might die in the process, but will, with their last breathe fight against tyranny and injustice.
Thank you - that's awesome. Seeing their convictions grow, and then eventually having the guts to stand up for it after a few failures... that's nice character development.
 
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keith99

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i may not speak for most Christians, but i would like to read about "real-ness" and those who are fearless in the face of staunch and knee-shaking opposition, but stand their ground, and are astutly smart about it, bewcause of the deep-rooted conviction of what injustices arenot s'posed to be, and they might die in the process, but will, with their last breathe fight against tyranny and injustice.

No, not fearless. To paraphrase Heinlein, Fearlessness is not bravery, it is foolishness. The brave man is not fearless, the brave man is one who overcomes his fears.

Confusing bravery with fearlessness is not at all unique to Christians, but it may be more dangerous in a Christian or other work that is trying to teach moral lessons.

Thinking of bravery there is another flaw in simple thinking, we tend to think brave or coward, as if those who are brave are brave in all things and those who are not are not in all things. That is very unreal and getting back to a more real characterization of bravery could work very well in a Christian story. Let me give 2 examples in a non-Christian setting.

Back when comic books were called comic books Amazing (or was it astounding) Tales told a story of a mousy bald man who went to a Gypsy woman for a baldness cure. She sold him a bottle of ointment to rub on his head before going to bed. She said it would cure all ailments of the head. The first night he dreamed he was at Thermopylae, he cut and ran. He woke up with bruises where the leather straps of the shield would have been. Next night he dreamed he was on the Titanic, he dressed as a woman to get on a lifeboat and woke up soaking wet, salt water wet. There may have been one more, not sure. The last night he dreamed that he was working on the Panama Canal, there he volunteered for field trials in Yellow Fever research. He woke up with a high fever. The doctor he saw said it was the first case of yellow fever in decades in the area. He then threw the rest away, he was cured, yes even cured of caring so much about hair.

The other is Starman Jones by Heinlein. Written in the 40s so key elements fail now (but could be reworked, we would just need a computer failure). It uses one of the common ways to get beyond Faster than Light limits. There are jump points, places that if you hit them just right take you to a different part of the galaxy. The protagonist, Max, is a poor farmboy, stuck with his mom and her current bully of a boyfriend. The society also has basically hereditary professions, ship navigators are one such and the boys uncle was one. He gave the boy his guild books. After a bad incident he takes the books, his meager belongings and leaves the backwoods farm in the middle of the night. He soon meets a man, Sam, who has actually been a spacer who 'helps' him. Great help, the man steals the books and tries to turn them in to the guild for a reward. The books technically were guild property. Max makes it to guild headquarters thinking his uncle had specified him as his heir to guild membership. He had not, it looks like it was just a failure to do the paperwork, but Max is pretty much out of luck. Only pretty much, Sam had tied to get the deposit Max's uncle had to give the guild for the books, he had failed and the guild had the books. Sam was given the deposit. Oh and Max is a math wiz and has an eidetic memory. The books are mostly tables, mainly just logarithms to a lot of decimal points. Getting into space is rather difficult you are 1 percenter rich, an emigrant and that one trip packed like sardines or crew. But to be crew means hereditary guild membership, even for simple things analogous to crew on a cruise ship. Sam and Max are reunited, Max now has money and Sam has questionable connections and experience. Sam can teach Max enough to pass for a pursers mate (I think) and can get forged documents. Sam is straight with Max this time, he lets him know that the forgery will be found out when they return and the trip information is sent to guild headquarters. It is just enough for one trip one where they will eventually jump ship on a nice planet.

It does not work out quite that way. Max shows his math skills and manages to get a chance at being a navigator, at least an apprentice. He is also found out as a fake, but that may be OK as he now has friends in the right places, problems still but solvable. I don't think he ratted out Sam. Things are looking great. But making jumps is a high stress deal. You have to hit spot on, so the ship has to right in the groove, a little off and if you are lucky there is no jump, unlucky and you jump to somewhere unknown. Oh and no computers as we know them mainly done by hand. Yup a jump goes wrong and they end up in unknown space. And from here the adventure starts. I'll omit that except to say that the captain who tried to make a large correction and messed up the sign suffered from guilt and eventually suicided and the navigator who made the initial mistake was unstable and destroyed all the guild books. The only hope is Max and what is in his head. At first they seek a habitable planet, but eventually they decide trying to get home is what nearly everyone wants. They end up on a peaceful planet and decide settling might work. Turns out it is not so peaceful, the top species are centaurs and hostile. Max and his girlfriend are captured and Sam eventually becomes a rescue squad of one to save them. He succeeds but the last bit to the ship is open ground, too much open ground. Sam explains to Max just how important he is, that if Max does not make it they are all pretty much doomed. They try to cross to the ship, they are spotted and while Max and his girlfriend continue Sam turns and fires with textbook perfection, not moving from that position until he is trampled to death.

They then take off and get lucky. With much more in the open one of the ships officers deduces that Sam was almost surely a Space Marine who missed a ships movement and never had the courage to face the music. He did however have the courage to die bravely.
 
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keith99

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You are a gifted writer.

You also misunderstood what i meant by "fearlessness".

My gifts as a writer are rather limited. But I have read many of the best and sometimes their echoes are pretty good.
 
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Wgw

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Although I myself am a conservative Orthodox Christian, this does not limit the scope of the sort of SF I enjoy. It has not stopped me from writing an SF story with a lesbian protagonist, by the way (and no, I don't find it a turn on, lest anyone decides to go there). In general, the SF stories I am working on are Christian primarily in that they depict a regime modelled on the Byzantine Empire amd various successor states (Russia and Austria-Hungary), a regime which I personally like, but which many people, including the aforementioned protagonist, would regard as dystopic, and which I am disinclined to morally idealize in the stories.

I don't like SF to be preachy. CS Lewis came rather too close to preachiness in the Space Trilogy but was saved as it were by his brilliant narrative skill. Atheist SF, when it gets preachy, is intolerable; I have encountered too much SF where an atheist author decides to use the genre as a vehicle from which he might rubbish religion.
 
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Wgw

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No, not fearless. To paraphrase Heinlein, Fearlessness is not bravery, it is foolishness. The brave man is not fearless, the brave man is one who overcomes his fears.

Confusing bravery with fearlessness is not at all unique to Christians, but it may be more dangerous in a Christian or other work that is trying to teach moral lessons.

Thinking of bravery there is another flaw in simple thinking, we tend to think brave or coward, as if those who are brave are brave in all things and those who are not are not in all things. That is very unreal and getting back to a more real characterization of bravery could work very well in a Christian story. Let me give 2 examples in a non-Christian setting.

Back when comic books were called comic books Amazing (or was it astounding) Tales told a story of a mousy bald man who went to a Gypsy woman for a baldness cure. She sold him a bottle of ointment to rub on his head before going to bed. She said it would cure all ailments of the head. The first night he dreamed he was at Thermopylae, he cut and ran. He woke up with bruises where the leather straps of the shield would have been. Next night he dreamed he was on the Titanic, he dressed as a woman to get on a lifeboat and woke up soaking wet, salt water wet. There may have been one more, not sure. The last night he dreamed that he was working on the Panama Canal, there he volunteered for field trials in Yellow Fever research. He woke up with a high fever. The doctor he saw said it was the first case of yellow fever in decades in the area. He then threw the rest away, he was cured, yes even cured of caring so much about hair.

The other is Starman Jones by Heinlein. Written in the 40s so key elements fail now (but could be reworked, we would just need a computer failure). It uses one of the common ways to get beyond Faster than Light limits. There are jump points, places that if you hit them just right take you to a different part of the galaxy. The protagonist, Max, is a poor farmboy, stuck with his mom and her current bully of a boyfriend. The society also has basically hereditary professions, ship navigators are one such and the boys uncle was one. He gave the boy his guild books. After a bad incident he takes the books, his meager belongings and leaves the backwoods farm in the middle of the night. He soon meets a man, Sam, who has actually been a spacer who 'helps' him. Great help, the man steals the books and tries to turn them in to the guild for a reward. The books technically were guild property. Max makes it to guild headquarters thinking his uncle had specified him as his heir to guild membership. He had not, it looks like it was just a failure to do the paperwork, but Max is pretty much out of luck. Only pretty much, Sam had tied to get the deposit Max's uncle had to give the guild for the books, he had failed and the guild had the books. Sam was given the deposit. Oh and Max is a math wiz and has an eidetic memory. The books are mostly tables, mainly just logarithms to a lot of decimal points. Getting into space is rather difficult you are 1 percenter rich, an emigrant and that one trip packed like sardines or crew. But to be crew means hereditary guild membership, even for simple things analogous to crew on a cruise ship. Sam and Max are reunited, Max now has money and Sam has questionable connections and experience. Sam can teach Max enough to pass for a pursers mate (I think) and can get forged documents. Sam is straight with Max this time, he lets him know that the forgery will be found out when they return and the trip information is sent to guild headquarters. It is just enough for one trip one where they will eventually jump ship on a nice planet.

It does not work out quite that way. Max shows his math skills and manages to get a chance at being a navigator, at least an apprentice. He is also found out as a fake, but that may be OK as he now has friends in the right places, problems still but solvable. I don't think he ratted out Sam. Things are looking great. But making jumps is a high stress deal. You have to hit spot on, so the ship has to right in the groove, a little off and if you are lucky there is no jump, unlucky and you jump to somewhere unknown. Oh and no computers as we know them mainly done by hand. Yup a jump goes wrong and they end up in unknown space. And from here the adventure starts. I'll omit that except to say that the captain who tried to make a large correction and messed up the sign suffered from guilt and eventually suicided and the navigator who made the initial mistake was unstable and destroyed all the guild books. The only hope is Max and what is in his head. At first they seek a habitable planet, but eventually they decide trying to get home is what nearly everyone wants. They end up on a peaceful planet and decide settling might work. Turns out it is not so peaceful, the top species are centaurs and hostile. Max and his girlfriend are captured and Sam eventually becomes a rescue squad of one to save them. He succeeds but the last bit to the ship is open ground, too much open ground. Sam explains to Max just how important he is, that if Max does not make it they are all pretty much doomed. They try to cross to the ship, they are spotted and while Max and his girlfriend continue Sam turns and fires with textbook perfection, not moving from that position until he is trampled to death.

They then take off and get lucky. With much more in the open one of the ships officers deduces that Sam was almost surely a Space Marine who missed a ships movement and never had the courage to face the music. He did however have the courage to die bravely.

Starman Jones was very good, one of the better Heinlein juveniles.
 
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HatGuy

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Some great stuff here. I'm also not interested in things being too preachy, but also want something that's not so vague that you might not have bothered even writing it. Finding that balance is a skill that'll probably take a long time to develop.

I found I enjoyed the last of Lewis's space trilogy more than the others. It may have been the writing style, however.

I recently stumbled upon the "Lamb amongst the Stars" series. Just read a long sample of it and it seems really interesting. Anyone read it?
 
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Confusing bravery with fearlessness is not at all unique to Christians, but it may be more dangerous in a Christian or other work that is trying to teach moral lessons.
I do think this limits what Christian-influenced fiction is trying to do. For my part, I'm never trying to teach a moral lesson - what I find far more interesting is finding a way to move people, and make them question if they really know as much of the world as they think they do.

Perhaps Frank Peretti's THE OATH was trying to teach a moral lesson, but for some reason it seems to me he just did a good job of it, and it went beyond morality to actually pointing to something of the gospel: how we all sin and how we all try to avoid admitting that, and how we all actually need a power outside of us to deliver us from it. (If you haven't read Peretti's THE OATH I don't want to put any spoilers here).
 
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Have you ever read Kathy Tyer's Firebird trilogy? (I understand she's written the next installment, but I haven't gotten to it yet. :confused2:) It's definitely a Christian scifi story, but it's set in another universe. Basically imagining a Jesus-type figure coming in a universe with multiple space-faring civilizations including a people who have force-like powers. I'm doing a bad job of describing it, but I felt it was thoroughly enjoyable and interesting. Not preachy at all either. (You might know Tyer's from her Star Wars novels.)
 
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keith99

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Starman Jones was very good, one of the better Heinlein juveniles.

Podkayne of Mars is also rather good. As written that is, not so much as published. A story that is about consequences changes when they are all but eliminated.
 
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I do think this limits what Christian-influenced fiction is trying to do. For my part, I'm never trying to teach a moral lesson - what I find far more interesting is finding a way to move people, and make them question if they really know as much of the world as they think they do.

Perhaps Frank Peretti's THE OATH was trying to teach a moral lesson, but for some reason it seems to me he just did a good job of it, and it went beyond morality to actually pointing to something of the gospel: how we all sin and how we all try to avoid admitting that, and how we all actually need a power outside of us to deliver us from it. (If you haven't read Peretti's THE OATH I don't want to put any spoilers here).
I wrote a whole novel only to realize at the end that I might have chosen the wrong creatures to portray as sharing the image of God with mankind and had to discard the whole thing. Why it could not have realized it before I spent al that time writing is beyond me.
 
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Well science fiction is still fiction. Ask yourself if the theme of your story is a parable. For me I have imagined quite horrid stories in the science fiction field as well as the fantasy field. Know your target audience and pray for good judgement. Because hey I have stories about aliens. I have actually many stories about aliens. I'm at the stage if the writing should even be done. Do I believe there are cultures on distant planets 1,00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.3 miles away? Point is I don't have a clue. I would need more resources and more study in physics thought to conclude that. If God revealed to humanity that there was life, as we know it, on another system well it's up to us to find common love for one another because the Creator of the Universe both created us. But hey I have never had a Martian experience other than it's a planet that I sometimes see in the sky and that there were other deities who were associated with Mars.
 
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I'm a writer and have recently been exploring what's happening in the Christian sci-fi and fantasy scene. Enclave Publishing seems to be leading the space (or am I wrong)? I've gotten a few of their free books on my Kindle, but a lot of it seems to be aimed toward the YA market. I know that's a big market, so I can't blame them, but I'm wondering - is this it?

The reason for my main question is I was wondering what Christians actually WANT to read. Most of us probably see "Christian fiction" and think, meh. Yet we're happy to read C.S. Lewis which is quite obviously Christian, IMO. I'm wondering if that's because he's just famous, or if whatever else is out there is just not good enough. What would it take to actually make Christians give Christian fiction a chance? I'm obviously asking because I'm a writer and would love to be able to write the kind of novels ole Lewis did.

In my own fantasy novels I've tried to be a little more discreet than Lewis, but I worry that I just then appeal to no one. In my next book I'm thinking of being a little less discreet, but I'm not sure how to go about it. (P.S. - am I allowed to post a link here to my novels?).

I like fantasy stories like J.R Tolkein. He did a good job at writing Christian literature that was discreet.
 
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