what do you know about Islam?

[Futuwwa]

Zstar, there is no material on Muhammed's personal life in the Quran. All information on that comes from the hadiths.

 

[Montalban]

Moslems continually raise off-topic subjects here because they're afraid to deal with the issues. I've reminded them of this, but eventually I still respond to their distractions because I'm not worried about discussion. So, okay, you want a comparison, let's look.
Christian holy books: Silent on matter (according to Islam_mulia)
Islamic holy books: sets best example of man as marrying a nine year old girl
Christians: commended to marry a child? No.
Moslems: commended to marry a child? Yes. Though you don't have to.
Is it harmful? By today's reckoning it is. It's also, as noted by your colleagues 'unnecessary'. But in Islam is there something to say "Don't ever do this again?" No.
At best you've then got Christianity silent on an issue against Islam actually encouraging you to a harmful practice.
And as noted even in today’s 'modern' Islamic nations they still allow it - but don't give her other 'adult' rights.

 

[Zstar]

Zstar, there is no material on Muhammed's personal life in the Quran. All information on that comes from the hadiths.

Thanks! I'm very un-familiar with the Koran and have no idea what the "Hadiths" are but thinking they are the writtings of early Muslums.

When one says "everything he did and everything he said" is that refering to the said as Koran and the did as Hadiths?

 

[Montalban]

Zstar, there is no material on Muhammed's personal life in the Quran. All information on that comes from the hadiths.

We know of him, his personality.

"By the grace of Allah, you are gentle towards the people; if you had been stern and ill-tempered, they would have dispersed from round about you" Koran 3:159

And of course, we know is considered a 'prophet'
002.004

 

[Futuwwa]

Thanks! I'm very un-familiar with the Koran and have no idea what the "Hadiths" are but thinking they are the writtings of early Muslums.

The hadiths are compilations of oral accounts concerning the life of Muhammed and the history of the early Islamic community. They were penned down about two centuries after the events, which raises all kinds of reliability issues. The art of discerning the truth of the matter from the hadiths is a science in itself.

 

[Montalban]

The hadiths are compilations of oral accounts concerning the life of Muhammed and the history of the early Islamic community. They were penned down about two centuries after the events, which raises all kinds of reliability issues. The art of discerning the truth of the matter from the hadiths is a science in itself.

There's the so-called 'science of hadith' that is supposed to guarantee some Hadiths by showing a line of transmission

 

[Montalban]

Thanks! I'm very un-familiar with the Koran and have no idea what the "Hadiths" are but thinking they are the writtings of early Muslums.

When one says "everything he did and everything he said" is that refering to the said as Koran and the did as Hadiths?

Muhammed is mentioned in the Koran, speaking in first-person thus showing him to be the originator of the Koran.

Futuwwa, in defending Islam always manages to give arguments against it. Here he does so subtly by calling into question Hadiths - because these are our primary sources for Muhammed being with a child. But in doing so he calls his own 'holy books' into question as being unreliable.

"In Islam, the Arabic word sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad..., the Messenger of Allah, lived his life. The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur'an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/

You know someone is in trouble when, in order to defend their faith they end up attacking it

 

[Islam_mulia]

.

I'm still waiting for Islam_mulia to acknowledge another of his 'challenges' met when I sited an Islamic site about Muhammed being an example for you guys. Instead he keeps demanding where it says that you MUST marry a 9 year old.

I thought I replied this before. The 'example' that Muslims derive from the marriage of Muhammad (pbuh) to Aisha and his other wives is not on what age Muslims can or should marry, but rather on the importance of marriage on cementing ties between clans and tribes, bringing up a religious and happy family, etc.

Your only response to this, rather disappointingly, was rather you thought Muhammad (pbuh) only promotes non-platonic relationship.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Muhammed is mentioned in the Koran, speaking in first-person thus showing him to be the originator of the Koran.

For a person who is not knowledgeable in Arabic language and style, it is encouraged to read http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Grammar/robinson.html where the Quran follows classical Arabic style of shifting of pronouns from first to third persons speech, etc.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Moslems continually raise off-topic subjects here because they're afraid to deal with the issues. I've reminded them of this, but eventually I still respond to their distractions because I'm not worried about discussion. So, okay, you want a comparison, let's look.

Christian holy books: Silent on matter (according to Islam_mulia)

If you are not afraid of discussion, why do you not continue at this thread to explain why Christian scriptures and traditions do not object to child marriage? I know we are discussing Islam here, but for a Christian to gave judgement on Islamic belief would interest Muslims here to know how Christianity reponds to the same topic.

I am disappointed that while Christian have no qualms about questioning other people's faith but have no answer when asked to give a Christian response to the same issue.

Islamic holy books: sets best example of man as marrying a nine year old girl

I explained in one of my posts that the 'example' set by Muhammad (pbuh) was not on marrying a young woman. The focus of the marriage was on other things. You ignored the reason why marriage was institutionalised in the first place. If this is the 'example', then surely you would have millions of Muslim parents who would register their 9 year olds for marriage. Wouldn't that be so?

Christians: commended to marry a child? No.

No? Where does the bible or the writings of the early christian fathers said that it is not commended to marry a child.
This strikes me as odd. Child marriage was not a taboo for the Jews during Christ' time. Similarly for Paul's and other Apostles' time.

If you, the 21st century greatest critic of Islam, (sorry, I cant get over your statement that a 7th century christian writer like John of Damascus did not know how to respond to Islam), is so adamant that child marraige is wrong, you should want to tell the readers here why the bible and christian fathers and even Jesus and Paul had nothing to say about this 'crime'?

Moslems: commended to marry a child? Yes. Though you don't have to.
Is it harmful? By today's reckoning it is. It's also, as noted by your colleagues 'unnecessary'. But in Islam is there something to say "Don't ever do this again?" No.


At best you've then got Christianity silent on an issue against Islam actually encouraging you to a harmful practice.
And as noted even in today’s 'modern' Islamic nations they still allow it - but don't give her other 'adult' rights.

Where does Islam encourage marrying a child? I would understand Islam do allow Muslims to marry a young woman provided it does not pose any danger or social difficulties to any of the spouses.

The other thing that you have not responded is why you use a modern-day non-religious approach to discussing early marriage. Are you too shy to use your Christian teachings to advise us why you think Muslims are wrong??

 

[Montalban]

I thought I replied this before. The 'example' that Muslims derive from the marriage of Muhammad to Aisha and his other wives is not on what age Muslims can or should marry, but rather on the importance of marriage on cementing ties between clans and tribes, bringing up a religious and happy family, etc.

Firstly you demanded to know where it was a 'law'. I said it was just an example. YOU argued against this. Now you're caught out again by now saying it is an example. But you ignore that his wives are 'archetypes'; that is the 'type' of person you're permitted to marry.

Your only response to this, rather disappointingly, was rather you thought Muhammad only promotes non-platonic relationship.

Actually that was an attempt at humour based on either yours, or another's attempts to say that it was about having children. He only had one child with all those wives and concubines.

 

[Montalban]

For a person who is not knowledgeable in Arabic language and style, it is encouraged to read http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Grammar/robinson.html where the Quran follows classical Arabic style of shifting of pronouns from first to third persons speech, etc.

That might be so in Arabic. But when translating into English, they choose what English word best conveys the sense of meaning of the original Arabic. And first person means "I" did this, or "I" say this, etc. And it's not about changing from your god saying "I" but "I Muhammed". So again you miss the mark. It is Muhammed speaking!

 

[Montalban]

If you are not afraid of discussion, why do you not continue at this thread to explain why Christian scriptures and traditions do not object to child marriage?

I addressed the argument from alleged silence already. I specifically mentioned John of Damascus whom you raised. I addressed the title of the treatise that backs up my claim about not knowing how to respond and you, laughably ignore that. You shouldn't raise evidence that doesn't help your argument.

An argument from (alleged) silence doesn't help. Ignore that. Press on

The title of his work, doesn't help you either... as it backs up my claim that Christians were unsure how to respond to Islam. Ignore that. Press on

I know we are discussing Islam here, but for a Christian to gave judgement on Islamic belief would interest Muslims here to know how Christianity reponds to the same topic.

But it's irrelevant to that topic. Ignore that. Press on

I am disappointed that while Christian have no qualms about questioning other people's faith but have no answer when asked to give a Christian response to the same issue.

I'm disappointed you continually have to resort to misrepresentation. Not only do I respond, I have to put up with you evading and going off-topic. Ignore that. Press on. You choose to express a lack of argument. That's fine by me

I explained in one of my posts that the 'example' set by Muhammad was not on marrying a young woman. The focus of the marriage was on other things.

No. That's just you repeating yourself. The evidence says that Muhammed married a young girl, therefore Moslems can marry young.

You ignored the reason why marriage was institutionalised in the first place. If this is the 'example', then surely you would have millions of Muslim parents who would register their 9 year olds for marriage. Wouldn't that be so?

*sigh* back to an argument I never made. I have never said it is a legal requirement that all shall marry children. Given that, why should they register them all? Given that I've said this about a half dozen times, why would you resort to repeating this straw-man.

No? Where does the bible or the writings of the early christian fathers said that it is not commended to marry a child.
This strikes me as odd. Child marriage was not a taboo for the Jews during Christ' time. Similarly for Paul's and other Apostles' time.

I've dealt with this too. Even if it weren't 'taboo' at that time there's no (according to you) Chrisitan texts on the subject at all therefore there's nothing to say that it SHOULD be allowed to continue on forever either. You've got the example of Muhammed for all time, and as noted I've sited Islamic advice sites. You simply have not only to continue this off-topic investigation of Christianity, you have to ignore that evidence I cited, and repeat your own reworking of the 'archetypes' of Islamic marriage.

If you, the 21st century greatest critic of Islam, (sorry, I cant get over your statement that a 7th century christian writer like John of Damascus did not know how to respond to Islam),

I can't get over you again ignore that he treated your faith as a heresy of Christianity

In point of fact you've made so many attempts at dodging points I can't see any reason for addressing anything else from your post.

You cite NO evidence for your idea on Islamic marriage.

You ignore evidence even from John of Damascus - whom YOU cited - who calls your faith a heresy.

You continue with an off-topic examination of Christianity, and even though I respond, you still go on as if I haven't.

You've yet to show why an argument of alleged non-discussion proves that it was condoned. You just 'suppose' that it must be so. Innuendo is not an argument.

And you continue to straw-man my argument regarding requirements for Moslems to marry children.

You manage to cram all those errors into such a small post. Still, if you want to advertise Islamic argument, that's up to you.

 

[Montalban]

Originally it was in the Ottoman Empire, then the British Protectorate of Palestine and now Israel.

Baha'u'llah didn't have any choice about where he got exiled and Akka was under Muslim rule at the time.


So please don't disappoint me and drag out the sorry canard about Jewish conspiracies.

I thought that the Baha'i orginated in Iran. How'd they end up under Turkish (Ottoman) rule?

 

[beamishboy]

The rise in the number of Muslims is misleading. This is because in many Muslim countries, a Muslim is NOT ALLOWED to leave the religion. A Muslim who leaves Islam is considered an apostate and under Islamic law, he should be executed.

In my discussion with Muslims in CF, I'm surprised to note that many Muslims are of the personal view that Muslims who become non-Muslims ought to be executed.

So the figures are misleading because there can be many ex-Muslims who have not registered their de-conversion from Islam because it's always better to be deemed a Muslim than to be killed.

Did someone post that Islam was not spread by force or by the sword. That may be true but once you are a Muslim, you have a Damocles sword above your head if you should leave the faith.

For the record, I have never been a Muslim and never will. So, don't kill me.

 

[elwill]

You say your god approves of it, because he does. Circular logic.

this issue in islam is the same in christianity , you cant realize that
if you say that our God approves it becuase he didn't prohibit it , so its the same situation in christianity
your God also approves it because he didn't prohibit it

I make no such claim. I know English isn't your first language but continually straw-manning my posts doesn't help.

well , its not my first language , so can you tell me how i misunderstand your language in share # 265
Certainly if he didn't act like a prophet, he isn't a prophet.

sorry , but i understood from this statment that you claim that marrying of 9yo not act of prophet , correct me if that is not your mean , thanx

You've gone several days without a point.

i didn't know also what is your point in the first place ?
are you condemn the marriage of our prophet from your personal view or from relegious point of view ?
because if it was personal , so it dosn't matter with us if you agree with that or not (no offenses)

if it was from relegious point of view , so we want to know why it's may be wrong from this view

I posted from an Advice site. You guys demand where I show this. I re-post it. And you and Islam_mulia continually re-writing my argument to address what you'd like to have me say.

i think that i responded to you from the same site

I'm still waiting for Islam_mulia to acknowledge another of his 'challenges' met when I sited an Islamic site about Muhammed being an example for you guys.

not me nor islam molia nor any other muslims will denyed that we take mohammed(pbuh) as an example for us
i think that islam molia described to you which kind of behaviours we take him as an example with
it how to deal with you brothers , how you deal with your wife , how you deal with your anger ,..etc
not" in which age you must marraige" , sorry , your point is silly

it makes me wonder , if muslims must take mohammed(pbuh) as an example to marry with 9yo girls
so where is your statistics please ?
how many muslims (40yo) married with girls (9yo) in all the world ?

 

[Montalban]

this issue in islam is the same in christianity , you cant realize that
if you say that our God approves it becuase he didn't prohibit it , so its the same situation in christianity
your God also approves it because he didn't prohibit it

You don't say that. You say "God allowed it because it was normal practice"
Thus making your god someone who looks to see what's popular and then allowing that.

well , its not my first language , so can you tell me how i misunderstand your language in share # 265
Certainly if he didn't act like a prophet, he isn't a prophet.

sorry , but i understood from this statment that you claim that marrying of 9yo not act of prophet , correct me if that is not your mean , thanx

I wouldn't think sexually assaulting a child would be an example to follow

i didn't know also what is your point in the first place ?
are you condemn the marriage of our prophet from your personal view or from relegious point of view ?

*sigh* Again I'm going to cut off my response to you here. I've already cited UN evidence regarding harm
*sigh* Even our differences in language shouldn't lead you to asking over and over again - like your co-religionists here - the same questions

 

[Montalban]

Disputes between Muhammed's wives from the Bukhari hadith
Volume 3, Book 47, Number 755:

Narrated 'Urwa from 'Aisha:

The wives of Allah's Apostle were in two groups. One group consisted of 'Aisha, Hafsa, Safiyya and Sauda; and the other group consisted of Um Salama and the other wives of Allah's Apostle. The Muslims knew that Allah's Apostle loved 'Aisha, so if any of them had a gift and wished to give to Allah's Apostle, he would delay it, till Allah's Apostle had come to 'Aisha's home and then he would send his gift to Allah's Apostle in her home. The group of Um Salama discussed the matter together and decided that Um Salama should request Allah's Apostle to tell the people to send their gifts to him in whatever wife's house he was. Um Salama told Allah's Apostle of what they had said, but he did not reply. Then they (those wives) asked Um Salama about it. She said, "He did not say anything to me." They asked her to talk to him again. She talked to him again when she met him on her day, but he gave no reply. When they asked her, she replied that he had given no reply. They said to her, "Talk to him till he gives you a reply." When it was her turn, she talked to him again. He then said to her, "Do not hurt me regarding Aisha, as the Divine Inspirations do not come to me on any of the beds except that of Aisha." On that Um Salama said, "I repent to Allah for hurting you." Then the group of Um Salama called Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle and sent her to Allah's Apostle to say to him, "Your wives request to treat them and the daughter of Abu Bakr on equal terms." Then Fatima conveyed the message to him. The Prophet said, "O my daughter! Don't you love whom I love?" She replied in the affirmative and returned and told them of the situation. They requested her to go to him again but she refused. They then sent Zainab bint Jahsh who went to him and used harsh words saying, "Your wives request you to treat them and the daughter of Ibn Abu Quhafa on equal terms." On that she raised her voice and abused 'Aisha to her face so much so that Allah's Apostle looked at 'Aisha to see whether she would retort. 'Aisha started replying to Zainab till she silenced her. The Prophet then looked at 'Aisha and said, "She is really the daughter of Abu Bakr."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/047.sbt.html#003.047.755

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 192:

Narrated 'Ubaid bin 'Umar:

I heard 'Aisha saying, "The Prophet used to stay for a long while with Zanab bint Jahsh and drink honey at her house. So Hafsa and I decided that if the Prophet came to anyone of us, she should say him, "I detect the smell of Maghafir (a nasty smelling gum) in you. Have you eaten Maghafir?' " So the Prophet visited one of them and she said to him similarly. The Prophet said, "Never mind, I have taken some honey at the house of Zainab bint Jahsh, but I shall never drink of it anymore." So there was revealed: 'O Prophet ! Why do you ban (for you) that which Allah has made lawful for you . . . If you two (wives of Prophet) turn in repentance to Allah,' (66.1-4) addressing Aisha and Hafsa. 'When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives.' (66.3) namely his saying: But I have taken some honey."
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/063.sbt.html#007.063.192

 

[anatolian]

elwill, my advise to you.Don't debate with montalban.Because he is a different kind of personality that creats his own facts, wants you to accept them as truth and debate based upon them for weeks and months ..it is simply impossible to talk to that mr.australian..

 

[Montalban]

elwill, my advise to you.Don't debate with montalban.Because he is a different kind of personality that creats his own facts, wants you to accept them as truth and debate based upon them for weeks and months.it is simply impossible to talk to that mr.australian..

Thank you for simply adding another Islamic voice of misrepresentation. For you, when I cite an Islamic advice site, or from the UN, it's me making things up.

Your post: it's a wonderful endorsement of the Islamic state of mind.



PS
Who told you I was Mr. Australian?