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What do you feel are the strong points of creationism?

Papias

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AoDoA wrote

you are simply avoiding the topics at hand with this post

No, explained that geologcal processes refute Gentry's Po halos, and asked you for support for your claim that they support YEC. you have not offered that support, other than to begin to quote mine.


and attempting to attack me

When did I attack you?

instead of contributing to the conversation and this is a broad subject so its going to encompass many different topics

Sounds like a defense for a Gish Gallop.

show me evidence for how Polonium halos could be captured in an extended formation process of granite

I linked to this evidence (by a real geologist), and your own cited paper provides more evidence. As I mentioned, this is from a fluid (either a liquid or a gas, such as radon) entending into the granite. This is not a big surprise, and is mentioned by real geologists. Are you really still claiming that Po halos help the case of YEC?

if you can refute what I'm saying then do so

OK.

AoDoA, do you think creationists have been honest and open with their "evidence" for creationism, like the Po halos, the T-rex tissue, and the observed speciation events?

Papias
 
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metherion

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Geez, you REALLY want me to spoon feed it to you, huh?

Alright, I will post SEVERAL sections from the site that give evidence against his conclusion.

1)Gentry provides no explanation for how polonium alone finds its way into biotite and fluorite, or why radiation damage haloes in these minerals are common in areas of known uranium enrichment, but rare where uranium abundance is low.

2)Polonium haloes are found only in rocks which contain myrmekite, a replacement mineral intergrowth - a clear indication that the rock is not "primordial."

3)
Gentry (1970, 1974), himself, notes a number of aspects about concentric haloes which cannot be explained by the alpha decay hypothesis. Dwarf and giant haloes cannot be reconciled with any known alpha decay energies. Gentry postulates that these anomalous size haloes represent new elements or new forms of alpha decay. Neither explanation seems likely given the current state of knowledge of radioactive elements

4)Perhaps the most damaging challenge to Gentry's hypothesis comes not from what has been observed, but from what is missing. Of the three major, naturally occurring radioactive elements, uranium, thorium, and potassium, two - uranium and thorium - are marked by decay series involving alpha particle emissions. Gentry's polonium haloes are attributed to alpha particle decay of the polonium isotopes Po-210, Po-214, and Po-218, all part of the uranium-238 decay chain. Thorium-232 decays to stable Lead-208 through a series of steps which include two additional polonium isotopes, Po-212 and Po-216. Thorium has an elemental abundance between three and four times that of uranium in the Earth's crust. Also, in areas of uranium enrichment, such as those from which Gentry's halo samples apparently have come, thorium is also enriched. These thorium decay series polonium isotopes have alpha decay energies well within the range documented for uranium-series polonium decay. Thus, polonium isotopes which result from the decay of naturally occurring thorium-232 should also produce characteristic haloes. In fact, according to Gentry's model, all polonium isotopes should be represented equally. However as Collins (1997) points out, Gentry has identified only halos for those isotopes of polonium associated with the decay of uranium-238; halos attributable to polonium-212 and polonium-216 are not found.

5) (the conclusion of the article)
He is unable to demonstrate that concentric haloes in mica are caused uniquely by alpha particles resulting from the decay of polonium isotopes. His samples are not from "primordial" pieces of the Earth's original crust, but from rocks which have been extensively reworked. Finally, his hypothesis cannot accommodate the many alternative lines of evidence that demonstrate a great age for the Earth. Gentry rationalizes any evidence which contradicts his hypothesis by proposing three "singularities" - one time divine interventions - over the past 6000 years. Of course, supernatural events and processes fall outside the realm of scientific investigations to address. As with the idea of variable radioactive decay rates, once Gentry moves beyond the realm of physical laws, his arguments fail to have any scientific usefulness. If divine action is necessary to fit the halo hypothesis into some consistent model of Earth history, why waste all that time trying to argue about the origins of the haloes based on current scientific theory? This is where most Creationist arguments break down when they try to adopt the language and trappings of science. Trying to prove a religious premise is itself an act of faith, not science..

Now, if you are interested in more than SOUND BYTES, you can actually READ that article and find the many points that don't fit into a quoted paragraph or less.

You see, this goes into one of the 6 things Papias posted. It takes you one or two sentences to throw out a pseudoscientific idea and demand an answer, while it can take pages and pages of research and explanation to say WHY it is wrong. So try READING WHAT WE POSTED.

Metherion
 
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AoDoA

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Geez, you REALLY want me to spoon feed it to you, huh?

Alright, I will post SEVERAL sections from the site that give evidence against his conclusion.

1)Gentry provides no explanation for how polonium alone finds its way into biotite and fluorite, or why radiation damage haloes in these minerals are common in areas of known uranium enrichment, but rare where uranium abundance is low.

2)Polonium haloes are found only in rocks which contain myrmekite, a replacement mineral intergrowth - a clear indication that the rock is not "primordial."

3)
Gentry (1970, 1974), himself, notes a number of aspects about concentric haloes which cannot be explained by the alpha decay hypothesis. Dwarf and giant haloes cannot be reconciled with any known alpha decay energies. Gentry postulates that these anomalous size haloes represent new elements or new forms of alpha decay. Neither explanation seems likely given the current state of knowledge of radioactive elements

4)Perhaps the most damaging challenge to Gentry's hypothesis comes not from what has been observed, but from what is missing. Of the three major, naturally occurring radioactive elements, uranium, thorium, and potassium, two - uranium and thorium - are marked by decay series involving alpha particle emissions. Gentry's polonium haloes are attributed to alpha particle decay of the polonium isotopes Po-210, Po-214, and Po-218, all part of the uranium-238 decay chain. Thorium-232 decays to stable Lead-208 through a series of steps which include two additional polonium isotopes, Po-212 and Po-216. Thorium has an elemental abundance between three and four times that of uranium in the Earth's crust. Also, in areas of uranium enrichment, such as those from which Gentry's halo samples apparently have come, thorium is also enriched. These thorium decay series polonium isotopes have alpha decay energies well within the range documented for uranium-series polonium decay. Thus, polonium isotopes which result from the decay of naturally occurring thorium-232 should also produce characteristic haloes. In fact, according to Gentry's model, all polonium isotopes should be represented equally. However as Collins (1997) points out, Gentry has identified only halos for those isotopes of polonium associated with the decay of uranium-238; halos attributable to polonium-212 and polonium-216 are not found.

5) (the conclusion of the article)
He is unable to demonstrate that concentric haloes in mica are caused uniquely by alpha particles resulting from the decay of polonium isotopes. His samples are not from "primordial" pieces of the Earth's original crust, but from rocks which have been extensively reworked. Finally, his hypothesis cannot accommodate the many alternative lines of evidence that demonstrate a great age for the Earth. Gentry rationalizes any evidence which contradicts his hypothesis by proposing three "singularities" - one time divine interventions - over the past 6000 years. Of course, supernatural events and processes fall outside the realm of scientific investigations to address. As with the idea of variable radioactive decay rates, once Gentry moves beyond the realm of physical laws, his arguments fail to have any scientific usefulness. If divine action is necessary to fit the halo hypothesis into some consistent model of Earth history, why waste all that time trying to argue about the origins of the haloes based on current scientific theory? This is where most Creationist arguments break down when they try to adopt the language and trappings of science. Trying to prove a religious premise is itself an act of faith, not science..

Now, if you are interested in more than SOUND BYTES, you can actually READ that article and find the many points that don't fit into a quoted paragraph or less.

You see, this goes into one of the 6 things Papias posted. It takes you one or two sentences to throw out a pseudoscientific idea and demand an answer, while it can take pages and pages of research and explanation to say WHY it is wrong. So try READING WHAT WE POSTED.

Metherion

so basically your answer to me question is:

"theres no evidence that Polonium caused the haloes"?

I really don't believe you understand a word of what you are posting
 
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metherion

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Coming from you, that is actually a HUGE irony.

Did you read it enough to realize it isn't a single sound byte? That there is FAR more to it than that?

Did you ACTUALLY READ THE ENTIRE SOURCE I LINKED TO YOU YET?

Yes? Or no? No equivocation, no 'summarize it for me', no nothing. Just, straight up, flat out, did you actually READ it yet?

Metherion
 
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AoDoA

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Coming from you, that is actually a HUGE irony.

Did you read it enough to realize it isn't a single sound byte? That there is FAR more to it than that?

Did you ACTUALLY READ THE ENTIRE SOURCE I LINKED TO YOU YET?

Yes? Or no? No equivocation, no 'summarize it for me', no nothing. Just, straight up, flat out, did you actually READ it yet?

Metherion

ironic or not its true

you couldn't answer my simple question(because you likely did not read it ;))
 
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metherion

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ironic or not its true

you couldn't answer my simple question
Actually, no, it isn't. I understand what it meant, and it means a lot more than your simple sentence 'there's no evidence polonium caused it'. And I notice you haven't answered my VERY SIMPLE YES OR NO QUESTION. And the answer to your 'simple question' is FAR from simple. Which you might know if you READ IT.

Did you read about how he didn't compare the samples of rock he got to local patterns of rock to see if they were anomalies or common there?

Did you read about how it doesn't account for all the kinds of halos and the ASSUMPTIONS he made to hand wave away the non-agreeing halos?

Did you read about how other elements that decay in the exact same way but slower HAVEN"T left halos?

DID. YOU. READ. THE. ARTICLE. I. LINKED. TO. YOU. TWICE. NOW. IN. TWO. SEPARATE. THREADS. YES. OR. NO.

Metherion
 
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AoDoA

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Actually, no, it isn't. I understand what it meant, and it means a lot more than your simple sentence 'there's no evidence polonium caused it'. And I notice you haven't answered my VERY SIMPLE YES OR NO QUESTION. And the answer to your 'simple question' is FAR from simple. Which you might know if you READ IT.

Did you read about how he didn't compare the samples of rock he got to local patterns of rock to see if they were anomalies or common there?

Did you read about how it doesn't account for all the kinds of halos and the ASSUMPTIONS he made to hand wave away the non-agreeing halos?

Did you read about how other elements that decay in the exact same way but slower HAVEN"T left halos?

DID. YOU. READ. THE. ARTICLE. I. LINKED. TO. YOU. TWICE. NOW. IN. TWO. SEPARATE. THREADS. YES. OR. NO.

Metherion

I read some it

I've lost interest tbh
 
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metherion

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I read some it

I've lost interest tbh
So no. You didn't read the entire article. And now you've lost interest. And yet you still claimed that it was inadequate to refute your claims and had the gall to claim that WE didn't understand it, without even reading the entire thing yourself.

That's the answer I thought I'd get. My point has been made. I'm done responding to this particular topic (Polonium halos).

Metherion
 
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Papias

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From the Creationist dictionary:

Mystery. Noun. Evidence that doesn't support creationism. Use "it's a mystery" when evidence clearly showing evolution is found, or if a previously touted "evidence" for creationism is shown instead to be well explained by real scientists.
 
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AoDoA

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From the Creationist dictionary:

Mystery. Noun. Evidence that doesn't support creationism. Use "it's a mystery" when evidence clearly showing evolution is found, or if a previously touted "evidence" for creationism is shown instead to be well explained by real scientists.

nm
 
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Papias

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Right AoDoA. That's why it says "or" in the definition. "Or" is usually interpreted to mean that either could apply.

Papias
PS - this looks like another case of responding before reading all the way through, as may have explained the earlier quote mine. Perhaps AoDoA has a tendency to give a quick response before reading completely (even a two sentence definition) or thinking about things. I wonder if that is the case, and if that is common among other creationists.

I see now that AoDoA has removed his question anyway.
 
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Mallon

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Getting back to the OP, I think the one thing YECism has going for it (and anti-evolutionism as a whole) is that it prevents from Christians from losing their Christian faith. I don't know how many times I've heard YECs say that if evolution is true, then there is no God and their faith is meaningless. Regardless of whether that position follows from the premise or not, it is better to be an ignorant YEC and go to heaven than to be an intelligent atheist and go to hell.
 
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Papias

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Mallon-

But is that correct? I mean, I've seen a lot of Christians (friends) leave Christianity because they were told by creationists that to be Christians one had to be creationist, so being creationist at first directly led them to leave Christianity. If they had embraced a TE perspective, they'd probably still be Christian.

Isn't it better to be a TE and go to heaven then be a creationist who will find creationism to be an untenable position and leave Christianity all together?

Papias
 
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T

The Lady Kate

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Getting back to the OP, I think the one thing YECism has going for it (and anti-evolutionism as a whole) is that it prevents from Christians from losing their Christian faith. I don't know how many times I've heard YECs say that if evolution is true, then there is no God and their faith is meaningless. Regardless of whether that position follows from the premise or not, it is better to be an ignorant YEC and go to heaven than to be an intelligent atheist and go to hell.

But if their faith can only survive by remaining willfully ignorant, is that really a faith that's going to lead anyone to salvation?

A faith that requires one to avoid truth rather than embrace it doesn't seem like much of a faith worth having.
 
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Mallon

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I'm speaking only of those YECs who remain adamant in their faith and unwavering in the face of evidence. They will still be saved, as opposed to those who leave their faith yet accept science. Of course, those who leave their faith do so because they've bought into the atheist/YEC lie that science and faith are in opposition to one another, but that's another story entirely. YECism is without a doubt a double-edged sword.

I'm trying to find some good in YECism, guys. It's not easy! Of course I think the EC position is better. But like I said, in the end, it's better to be ignorant and saved than smart and condemned. (And it's even better to be smart AND saved. ;))
 
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metherion

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I agree with Papias and TheLadyKate on this one. Your point of it keeping people in the faith based however loosely on the dichotomy hinges on the existence of the dichotomy, which (in my opinion) is one of the weakest links of creationism, and thus something using it as a foundation would be similarly weak, and not a strength.

However, I would like to propose another strong point of creationism: The intense faith its proponents possess. They may not be using scientifically valid arguments, they may have such false dichotomies in their faith, they may (et cetera), but they are (generally) strong and sincere in their faith in God, which can NEVER be a bad thing. Might be helped by a bit of a better foundation, but certainly not a bad thing.

Metherion
 
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