What do you do when....

[OnederWoman]

I know I've mentioned before... but for background purposes... we are charismatic calvinists. We like going to a spirit-filled church, so we've basically had to opt for churches that lean towards the armenian (sp?) side of things. Not a big issue here, but just background on us.

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We moved to the town we now live in 11 months ago. We tried many churches and even stayed at a Messianic church for 3 months. We learned a lot there and took away a lot that I think has enriched our walk... but, we didn't feel that's where God wanted us to stay (though we are still in contact with the MJ Rabbi and friends and all). So, we found the church we are at currently. It is a new Assemblies of God church... planted April 2003. It's very small right now and meets in a movie theater. The church is led by a Father and Son ministry team and their wives. The older half of the church seems to really like the church as it is, from what we can tell. But, there are a good number of us, mostly in the 25-35 year age range that are having some real issues. Yet, we've connected with each other and aren't feeling led to leave really... but we are all feeling something needs to be done or said. Just most all of us are unsure of what exactly to do or say and no one wants to take the innitiative and take the step.

Here are our problems... (in no specific order of importance)

1- worship. the church is lacking in this area. the younger pastor is supposed to be leading worship, but is new to it and worship is not really his area of expertise. His Mom is really the one leading and her views on how worship should be are very narrow. "worship should be slow songs, anything upbeat is irreverant" all songs are just chorus's... even the few good songs we've had are cut down to just the chorus and the whole message of the song is lost. The songs are the same ones week after week after week and are drving us crazy. That and the style in which the older pastors wife plays the keyboard, which can best be discribed as lounge style. The younger pastor likes more pssionate worship, but will not step up and be the leader he's supposed to be. This is a charismatic church and no one is raising their hands, clapping, shouting joyfully or heaven forbid... dancing!

2- Sundays feel like church meetings, not church. We hear more about the church we're supposed to be or want to become than just doing it. We are told of wonderful things the church is going to do and be... but it's all talk and no action.

3- Similar to above. The pastors keep taking about ways we can impact our community for the Lord. One was mentioned was reaching out to new parents with a small gift... then I mentioned not only reaching our to new parents, but parents who have been to Labor and delivery and lost a child to miscarriage or stillbirth, etc. and give them a memory box to put cards and mementos in. This and other things were mentioned as to how we could minister to the community. We haven't done any of these things.

4- the emphasis placed on 'growing the church', on 'numbers', or what I like ot refer to as 'quantity over quality'. Our heart is to bless the community we are in... if they come to our church great... but, if they go to any bible believeing church have we not done what we should? It's not that we don't want to see a church grow... it's just all the emphasis on bringing in the numbers and spending Sunday mornings talking about it instead being in the word and sending us off to our week refreshed and ready to serve the Lord in whatever way He may lead.

5- the older pastor and his wife give off a very shallow pressence. We and others feel that they are not genuine in their kindness. They seem like they are trying to be nice... more out of concern on keeping people coming to church than out of loving people because GOd has called them to do so. The pastors wife in paritcular never gives off any joy... she always has this sour, annoyed look on her face. They host the Wednesday night bible study in their home and she spends more time fussing about keeping her house perfect than offering a warm atmosphere to gather in. She has even had her daughter-in-law, the other pastors wife hand out flyers to parents about not letting the kids roam the house or stray from designated areas (the garage and the kitchen) as if any of us has (her 2 grandkids are the ones that run around wild and encourage the other kids to go along into the payroom they set up for the grandkids)... I guess she's concerned the kids will get crumbs on her light beige couches and carpet. We've offered the use of our home, it's kid friendly and we don't care if they run around... but, we've never been taken up on the offer.

6- the younger pastor isn't too bad, but his main experiance is as a youth pastor... and when he leads the bible study he does it as he would with teens. Not a big deal... but we are more than capable of participating in deep discussion of what the Bible says... not just to have it spoon fed to us as we sit like zombies not being given the chance to respond.

What would you do? Should something be done or said? What should be done or said? Any comments or advice? There are officially 6 of us that share all these concerns and there are a few others that we know share at least some of them.

(note: I'm going to ask this in more than one forum... just to see what range of advice there is to be offered)

 

[LarrySmith]

Here are our problems... (in no specific order of importance)

1- worship. the church is lacking in this area. the younger pastor is supposed to be leading worship, but is new to it and worship is not really his area of expertise. His Mom is really the one leading and her views on how worship should be are very narrow. "worship should be slow songs, anything upbeat is irreverant" all songs are just chorus's... even the few good songs we've had are cut down to just the chorus and the whole message of the song is lost. The songs are the same ones week after week after week and are drving us crazy. That and the style in which the older pastors wife plays the keyboard, which can best be discribed as lounge style. The younger pastor likes more pssionate worship, but will not step up and be the leader he's supposed to be. This is a charismatic church and no one is raising their hands, clapping, shouting joyfully or heaven forbid... dancing!

Be careful of this trap. You have some very VALID concerns but in this issue I think you are in the flesh. I'll tell you why. I can't see God on his throne in heaven saying" I just can't stand these songs...the tempo is too slow"
Jesus told the woman at the well that they that worhip God must do so in spirit and it truth. Worship is God's affair. It isn't about US! It's all about HIM. We focus on him and forget everything else. We shouldn't focus on what is sung or how polished the worship is. That is shallow. The real question you should ask is if this worship pleases out father. Is Jesus magnified? Is God being glorified?

Sometimes worship tends to glorify the singer. I would rather have bad songs sung by people with no talent giving God ALL the glory than have awesome songs sung by gifted people who steal just a LITTLE of our Father and Jesus's glory.

I'm not trying to offend you so please don't get angry.

2- Sundays feel like church meetings, not church. We hear more about the church we're supposed to be or want to become than just doing it. We are told of wonderful things the church is going to do and be... but it's all talk and no action.

I hear you sister! Loud and clear! I used to call these meetings "shark meetings"
I'll explain. If you take a shark and slit it open and throw him in the water ..it will devour itself!

That's how I feel about these kinds of meetings. It seems the whole meeting is taken up just talking about the meeting.

Poeple will disagree with this I'm sure..but I would leave the meeting when it took this course. If I was asked why I would explain thus.
"This kind of talk is an indicater that the meeting is a work of the flesh and not a work of the spirit"

3- Similar to above. The pastors keep taking about ways we can impact our community for the Lord. One was mentioned was reaching out to new parents with a small gift... then I mentioned not only reaching our to new parents, but parents who have been to Labor and delivery and lost a child to miscarriage or stillbirth, etc. and give them a memory box to put cards and mementos in. This and other things were mentioned as to how we could minister to the community. We haven't done any of these things.

Would it be safe to say that YOU (as in all 6)
HAVEN'T done anything either?
Why don't you do the reaching out sister? Perhaps God is calling YOU to this and no one else. That is a possibility you know. Have you prayed about it?
Sometimes I get judgemental over things like this. I am speaking for myself now. I tend to sit back and judge people for not doing what I'm doing. Tha fact is...God never called THEM to it ..just me.

4- the emphasis placed on 'growing the church', on 'numbers', or what I like ot refer to as 'quantity over quality'. Our heart is to bless the community we are in... if they come to our church great... but, if they go to any bible believeing church have we not done what we should? It's not that we don't want to see a church grow... it's just all the emphasis on bringing in the numbers and spending Sunday mornings talking about it instead being in the word and sending us off to our week refreshed and ready to serve the Lord in whatever way He may lead.

This is a very serious issue. It GREIVES God's heart when pastors make merchandise of his people. Pastors in America are all under serious pressure to gain numbers. When they meet another pastor at some convention the first questions asked are "How many people do you have?" "How big is your building" "How much are your weekly tithes and offerings?"

They never seem to ask" Do your people love each other" "Are they manifesting the fruits of the spirit" "Is everyone involved in some type of ministry""Do they love Jesus with all thier heart?"

I want to say one word in the pastor's defence however. It isn't HIS responsability to send you away refreshed! Even if he preached a perfect message you could still walk away in bondage if your heart isn't right.By the same token if your heart is right he could babble like a pagan and you could still be refreshed.The issue is a spiritual one not an intellectual one. Is is the LORD JESUS who does the refreshing sister...not the pastor.

Acts 3:19
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
KJV

5- the older pastor and his wife give off a very shallow pressence. We and others feel that they are not genuine in their kindness. They seem like they are trying to be nice... more out of concern on keeping people coming to church than out of loving people because GOd has called them to do so. The pastors wife in paritcular never gives off any joy... she always has this sour, annoyed look on her face. They host the Wednesday night bible study in their home and she spends more time fussing about keeping her house perfect than offering a warm atmosphere to gather in. She has even had her daughter-in-law, the other pastors wife hand out flyers to parents about not letting the kids roam the house or stray from designated areas (the garage and the kitchen) as if any of us has (her 2 grandkids are the ones that run around wild and encourage the other kids to go along into the payroom they set up for the grandkids)... I guess she's concerned the kids will get crumbs on her light beige couches and carpet. We've offered the use of our home, it's kid friendly and we don't care if they run around... but, we've never been taken up on the offer.

Have you 6 prayed about starting your own bible study in your house? Why don't you?
You could invite others that hold your concerns.
You could maybe even go thru your neighborhood and invite the lost to it. That would excite Jesus. You don't need the pastor's permission I assure you..just the Holy Spirit's. When moses was told that another was speaking in the name of the Lord do you know what he said? "I would that all men were God's prophets"
That is the attitude your pastor should have. If not...well...pray about it.

6- the younger pastor isn't too bad, but his main experiance is as a youth pastor... and when he leads the bible study he does it as he would with teens. Not a big deal... but we are more than capable of participating in deep discussion of what the Bible says... not just to have it spoon fed to us as we sit like zombies not being given the chance to respond.

What would you do? Should something be done or said? What should be done or said? Any comments or advice? There are officially 6 of us that share all these concerns and there are a few others that we know share at least some of them.

(note: I'm going to ask this in more than one forum... just to see what range of advice there is to be offered)

The whole idea that one man should stand up and do ALL the talking is a deception from the pit of hell! In fact the "sermon" is primarily responsable fro destroying body ministry. The "sermon" has it's roots in Greek philosophy. There were a group of wandering greek philosophers..call sophists.(reconise the name?)
They wandered from house to house. They entertained the occupants with thier oratory skills. They honed thier speaking style and they soon became popular more for thier skill and style than thier accuracy! Poeple would follow them just to hear them speak. They never intended to act on what was being said .They simply wanted to be entertained. Sound familar?
2 Tim 4:3
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
KJV

They received money for this service. It gave birth to the modern day "sermon"
Do you mean to tell me(pardon the rhetoric) that the pastor is the only one God can speak thru? That he is the only one that God is dealing with?

God desires that we all share in EVERY meeting! The corinthians understood this. Paul reproved them for thier lack of order...not thier body ministry.

1 Cor 14:26
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
KJV

Please don't be offended by my position on these matters..just eat the cherries and spit out the pits.


Check out this website(after you show this post to your husband)

http://www.hisword2.com

 

[OnederWoman]

Be careful of this trap. You have some very VALID concerns but in this issue I think you are in the flesh. I'll tell you why. I can't see God on his throne in heaven saying" I just can't stand these songs...the tempo is too slow"

We've asked ourselves the same questions over and over.... in all these things really. And, yes, the complaint is very on the surface. What came first though... before the songs got 'old', before we saw that things weren't going to 'pick up'... we noticed that at least to us, and now we find out to others, that the worship is basically lacking passion. I've not once felt the pressence on the Holy Spirit come over the congregation of this chruch during worship. We agree that it shouldn't matter the song or style of music... I worship to hymns as well as modern worship. It's just easiest to describe the physical rather than the spiritual I guess. I guess, just take what I've said about the physical in this and look at it from what could be going on at a spiritual perspective.

 

[OnederWoman]

"This kind of talk is an indicater that the meeting is a work of the flesh and not a work of the spirit"

That's exactly it! Everything seems to be coming from 'man' in this church. It's supposed to be a spirit-filled church, but as I said about the worship. I've not felt the spirits pressence beign involved in the church body as a whole.

 

[OnederWoman]

Would it be safe to say that YOU (as in all 6)
HAVEN'T done anything either?
Why don't you do the reaching out sister? Perhaps God is calling YOU to this and no one else. That is a possibility you know. Have you prayed about it?
Sometimes I get judgemental over things like this. I am speaking for myself now. I tend to sit back and judge people for not doing what I'm doing. Tha fact is...God never called THEM to it ..just me.

In some things no, but in some things yes. The thing I mentioned... which was the memory boxes... I made an example and brought it to the Wednesday night. I've just not been asked to do any more or given the go ahead to contact the hospital to see if we can do it. I'd do it on my own, but I need financial backing. It cost me $10 to do one box. Also... it took 3 hours (a regular photo box, lined in and out with pretty paper, with lettering on the outside signifying a baby girl in this instance and inside a hymn of hope.) It could be done for under $10, but I wouldn't be able to make enough to cover a ministry like that on my own. I've asked for help, it hasn't at this point been given. We also offered our home for a summer back yard Bible club for neighborhood kids... the summer went by with nothing happening. We could do these things on our own... but we were trying to do things with the apporval and backing of our church leadership. The others have their own examples of what they have done... for example... giving a woman a ride to church who had called the pastor for a ride. In our daily walk we look at all opportunities with people as a possible chance to minister. Sometimes it's a simple smile at someone who needs it, sometimes it's telling a person the gospel... we always try to be sensitive to the Lords leading.

 

[OnederWoman]

I want to say one word in the pastor's defence however. It isn't HIS responsability to send you away refreshed! Even if he preached a perfect message you could still walk away in bondage if your heart isn't right.By the same token if your heart is right he could babble like a pagan and you could still be refreshed.The issue is a spiritual one not an intellectual one. Is is the LORD JESUS who does the refreshing sister...not the pastor.

agreed... another area we've looked at ourselves on. However... during our own daily prayers and getting into the word we are getting refreshed... same with our personal worship time (mine being in the car on the way to work each morning). It is just bad when you miss a Sunday and don't feel you missed anything. This again is another thing going on since the beginning... since before we started actively looking at what's going on in this church and forming opinions on it. Our thing is... in all these areas... if they are wanting to be pastors of a growing church... it's not going to happen with things how they currently are. The same core group is there that was there since the spring. There have been a few visitors every week, but only the few remain and overall growth is at a very slow pace, when there is any at all.

 

[OnederWoman]

Have you 6 prayed about starting your own bible study in your house? Why don't you?
You could invite others that hold your concerns.
You could maybe even go thru your neighborhood and invite the lost to it. That would excite Jesus. You don't need the pastor's permission I assure you..just the Holy Spirit's. When moses was told that another was speaking in the name of the Lord do you know what he said? "I would that all men were God's prophets"

We 2 at least have considered this. We are still waiting on the Lord. We're not ready to be so independant. We've looked to the Sovereign Grace people for help, just so we're not alone... but haven't heard back from them again yet.

 

[OnederWoman]

Do you mean to tell me(pardon the rhetoric) that the pastor is the only one God can speak thru? That he is the only one that God is dealing with?

God desires that we all share in EVERY meeting! The corinthians understood this. Paul reproved them for thier lack of order...not thier body ministry.

1 Cor 14:26
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
KJV

Please don't be offended by my position on these matters..just eat the cherries and spit out the pits.

Ok... I have a responce... but, I just looked at the time and I need to go get showered for church. Will be back after lunch... until then.. GOd blass and thank you for your responses.

---------------

(edited to add responce now that I'm home from church)

Our church back home is very much all about 1 Cor 14:26

It's an Elder led church... not 'one' pastor. There are 3 Elders, elceted by the church body. Each is accountale to the other, to the deacons and to the body. Every service has body ministry time... where anyone (usually about 3 people) can get up and share a psalm, a doctrine, a tongue, a revelation, an interpretation. Worship there is passionate and meaningful... people experiance the pressence of God through worship, people are convicted in worship, people receive emotional healing, etc. Wednesday nights we had care groups (bible study fellowship groups) where everyone could share and we could really get deep into the word.

 

[whitestar]

Wow well...to be blunt...I would look for another church. Sorry but I disagree with the other poster on this...a pastor IS to be the spiritual leader of a church...without a good sherpard the flock is going to wander and get lost. He is falling down terribly on his leadership. Paul makes it clear what the roles should be in a church. I would complain too about singing the same songs every Sunday! How boring...and very uninspiring... We are to be REJOICING in the Lord and woshipping Him...not trying to endure church woship.

I think its sad the mom is taking over because this pastor doesn't have either the skill, knowledge or backbone to do so. His church is going to die and soon, if something isn't done.

The members of a church SHOULD be acting as a whole and not HAVING to go out and do things themselves (nothing wrong with doing that) but if its discussed in a church meeting, then never acted on...its wrong to expect the members to have to do it on there own without the backing of the church.

Lets say you make those boxes and take them to the hospital...as an individual (without church backing) I kind of doubt the hospital will allow it. But if you say you are from such and such church...the hospital may require the pastor to call first and make the arrangments...or a mother of a lost child may call the church to reach out and the pastor won't know how to respond..causing the mother to be hurt and more lost...no this has to be a group effort.

If you sent out boxes like this the church has to be prephared to meet these women's needs...meaning either the church should have a group of mom's who have been through it and know how to couslor these women, otherwise HUGE damage could be done.

A woman who has just lost a child is in terrible emotional pain and has to be handled in a careful way..it takes good leadership, organization to do something like this. On the surface it sounds good....but this is more then just surface work...its very involved...the pastor can't get his act together to run a church the right way, he sure can't handle something like this..


He isn't meeting your needs as the body of Christ..he is giving you milk in the scriptures rather then the meat you need in order to beable to grow in the scriptures and spirit of God. This is truly truly sad.

Its also sad you are getting NOTHING from it! You have made efforts and offers to help get things moving along and been ingored...BAD sign. Worse sign is not feeling the Holy Spirit present during church.

I almost wonder if this pastors 'mom', talked him into starting this church and the core group going are her friends..maybe some of his friends.

No, church is not for entertainment, but I dont' see you wanting that. You want what every good church has...the Power of the Holy Spirit in it...in the leaders, in the pastor, in the members..and while the pastor SHOULD be the leader, a strong spirit filled congengation then can take his lead and move on their own, causing growth, reaching out to the community, bringing in people...

Many unsaved people DO visit churches all the time...in fact many unsaved people are regular members of churches...you would be surprised actually. We all assume members of a church are saved, but they all aren't...they go to be 'good', they know the bible, they go through the motion, but have never REALLY accepted Christ into their lives.

And when you have visitors its really sad, I think, when they don't return. They are looking for something and its not there.

The pastor seems unmotivated to move forward in anything...that is what makes me think he has possibly been pushed into doing this..he is either not ready or was not lead by the Holy Spirit to open this church in the first place and this is why its failing.

A pastor IS to lead...IS to teach...IS to meet the needs of his members. You can stick in there forever, but until the Holy Spirit moves in there, I am afraid you are attending a dead church here.

We SHOULD feel joy when in church, we should feel like we have good leadership, we should feel the Holy Spirit...and not feel like we have just attended a funeral...(every week of that would be unbearable after awhile too!)

The bible speaks of rejoicing and woshipping the Lord with music! How can the same music over and over again be rejoicing? Its NOT flesh and superfical! Its important to sing out hearts out TO our Lord.

When you say the same prayer day after day after day...afterawhile it becomes so boring, so dull, so automaic, that no matter how hard you try, you find your mind wandering during it, not feeling the emotions and depth you first felt when you said it. If our connection to God because the same day after day, it begins to lose its meaning...we feel ourselves losing that connection with God.

This is why in Revelation the Lord says He will make everything anew! Image everything new everyday...never the same...no chance of getting bored! lol. How wonderful that will be!


The first church you mentioned sounded better...you said you got alot from it. As members of a church we ARE to be 'fed' the scriptures in order to grow.

A 'semon' is to teach and lead the people...without it what do you have? Just singing and praise and that's it? You can do that at home.

I wish you the best in whatever you decide to do.

(also why don't you reread the books Paul wrote about how a church should be run to help sort out any confusions)

God bless
Julie

 

[OnederWoman]

Thanks both of you for your responces. At this point my husband has said we're going to go try out some other churches.... next Sunday we'll be going to Calvary Chapel (though I'm not one for hiding the spiritual gifts for fear of offending someone.... if someone is offended by the Holy Spirit, well... that's a whole different topic altogether). We could say something I suppose, but my husband would rather leave than cause conflict. We are in constant prayer over this though. I wish we could just invite the friends we've made to come along with us, but somehow that seems kinda wrong. We will make an effort to develope these new fridnships though, and if they want to try another chruch, they will.

 

[Lee]

Nice church. Sounds more like a Southern Baptist church than a Charismatic church.

Well I have the same issue just like you in my own church. Some of the young people just keep on saying that they will just wait until parents and their generation die away. Sadly I always see that is not the solution. But they hold strongly that is the only solution, using the reference of the Israel in the wilderness to support their view.

I come up with a solution. I want to a visionary too. I am now studying in a Bible college. When I return, I hope to take up a ministry role in the church. Then I will slowly start rising up the laddar of church leadership. When I get there high enough where I can make influencial policies, I will change things. The worship service will not be so much focus on timing and schedule that everything is slow and no expressive liveliness. The service will be led the Holy Spirit, not by men.

Add with that, Bible study will be personal. Prayer will be personal. My church has the same problem about leaders being so neat and clean that they will not allow ministry to hold in their homes. That is sad. Homes are made to be dirty. God creates people with hands and feet to clean them. They tend to forget that.

My only advice for you is to slowly become an influence in church politics. It is all about church politics. The young pastor will not make too many moves because he still fear his parents more than God. That is how most young pastor will be. Politics.

Or otherwise get out of the church. It is always big enough for the town to have two Assembly of God churches.

Patience is usually the best way. But Jesus did say that you should dusk off your feet. This only you can do when you are blameless in leaving the church.