What do you believe is the root cause of homosexuality?

[uberd00b]

Attraction is a tough thing to pin down. What makes me attracted to redheads?

That's just a basic masochism, I suffer from it too.

 

[FallingWaters]

The answer the Bible gives us is that man's sinful nature is the root cause. It's the same nature that makes me want to have sex with every cute girl I see, that makes me want to cheat on my taxes, that makes me want to flip off the guy who got in my way and cut me off, etc. Sinful desire is so ingrained in us that it seems normal/natural. Agree with it or not, it is exactly what is said in the Bible.

Of course, if you aren't a Bible-believing Christian, you'll probably reject that answer.

Of course, you're right.
Our sinful nature is the true root cause of all sin.
Only when we are in our new body
in the new Heaven and the new Earth will we
be finally set free from the sinful nature.

 

[FallingWaters]

That's just a basic masochism, I suffer from it too.

LOL.

 

[Argent]

I suspect that it's a combination of genetics, physiology and ubringing, though not in any combination we can understand at this time.

I agree. It's very possible we will never know. As much as I believe gay sex is outside of God's will for His children, it's not a reason for discrimination in housing, employment etc. We don't discriminate agaist fornicators and adulterers.

 

[FallingWaters]

Just a poll.
EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to add an actual poll

http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/socarides.html

excerpts from an article that first appeared in

America
November 18, 1995

[bolds mine]

How America Went Gay
by Charles W. Socarides, M.D.
​

"For more than 20 years, I and a few of my colleagues in the field of psychoanalysis have felt like an embattled minority, because we have continued to insist, against today's conventional wisdom, that gays aren't born that way. We know that obligatory homosexuals are caught up in unconscious adaptations to early childhood abuse and neglect and that, with insight into their earliest beginnings, they can change..."

"In 1972 and 1973 they co-opted the leadership of the American Psychiatric Association and, through a series of political maneuvers, lies and outright flim-flams, they "cured" homosexuality overnight-by fiat. They got the A.P.A. to say that same-sex sex was "not a disorder." It was merely "a condition"-as neutral as lefthandedness. "

" ...After the Ball: How America Will Conquer its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 1990's, by Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen.

That book turned out to be the blueprint gay activists would use in their campaign to normalize the abnormal through a variety of brainwashing techniques once catalogued by Robert Jay Lifton in his seminal work, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of Brainwashing in China.

In their book Kirk and Madsen urged that gay activists adopt the very strategies that helped change the political face of the largest nation on earth. The authors knew the techniques had worked in China. All they needed was enough media-and enough money-to put them to work in the United States. And they did. These activists got the media and the money to radicalize America-by processes known as desensitization, jamming and conversion."

"Excuse me. Gay is not good. Gay is not decidedly free. How do I know this? For more than 40 years, I have been in solidarity with hundreds of homosexuals, my patients, and I have spent most of my professional life engaged in exercising a kind of "pastoral care" on their behalf. But I do not help them by telling them they are O.K. when they are not O.K. ..."

" Over the years, I found that those of my patients who really wanted to change could do so, by attaining the insight that comes with a good psychoanalysis."

"...Now we are getting reports, even in such gay publications as The Journal of Homosexuality, that the gay-gene studies and the gay-brain studies do not stand up to critical analysis. (The author of one so-called "gay-gene theory" is under investigation by the National Institutes of Health for scientific fraud.)"

"This is one reason why psychoanalysis is the tool that gets us to the heart of everything. Once my patients have achieved an insight into these dynamics-and realized there is no moral fault involved in their longtime and mysterious need-they have moved rather quickly on the road to recovery. ..."

"Well, what are we to think when militant homosexuals seek to lower the age of consensual sexual intercourse between homosexual men and young boys to the age of 14 (as they did in Hawaii in 1993) or 16 (as they tried to do in England in 1994)? In the Washington March for Gay Pride in 1993, they chanted, "We're here. We're queer. And we're coming after your children.""

 

[Pheehp]

Attraction is a tough thing to pin down. What makes me attracted to redheads?

attraction to gingers is CLEARLY emotional wounds and sin, lots and LOTS of sin!!

 

[MercyBurst]

http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/socarides.html

In the Washington March for Gay Pride in 1993, they chanted, "We're here. We're queer. And we're coming after your children.""

NAMBLASIZED

 

[Eudaimonist]

The root cause of homosexuality is homosexuals.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Mumei]

http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/socarides.html

We know that obligatory homosexuals are caught up in unconscious adaptations to early childhood abuse and neglect and that, with insight into their earliest beginnings, they can change..."

In every single study where it is A) clear that the participants are probably homosexual, and not bisexual B) the participants are not members of reparative therapy programs in which they are in paid or unpaid staff positions, and C) sexual orientation is tested, rather than sexual behavior, no more than 4% of participants are able to change their sexual orientation. Even if we were to take Exodus International and other such groups' claims as true, despite the fact that they have no proof, we'd still have 70% of the lesbian, gay, and bisexual population unable to become heterosexual.

And not only that, but even the leaders of reparative therapy groups, such as Alan Chambers, or some of the founders of Exodus International, admit that their homosexual feelings never left them. In fact, the founders of Exodus admitted that the entire program was a sham.

"In 1972 and 1973 they co-opted the leadership of the American Psychiatric Association and, through a series of political maneuvers, lies and outright flim-flams, they "cured" homosexuality overnight-by fiat. They got the A.P.A. to say that same-sex sex was "not a disorder." It was merely "a condition"-as neutral as lefthandedness."

What actually happened is that homosexuality was defined by those "in need" of psychiatric help. Imagine for a moment that the only straight persons you visited were those in prison, in psychiatric wards, and those that visited you for depression, anxiety, and what-have-you. You might come to the conclusion that all straight people are horrifically imbalanced individuals.

It was the same thing here. But when one scientist was approached by a gay former student, who asked her to examine homosexuals in the population at large, she agreed. Upon studying homosexuals who were not incarcerated, committed, or mentally unstable in the first place, but those living out in the general population, it became apparent that none of the scientists were able to tell the difference between a healthy homosexual and a healthy straight person.

That is why homosexuality was removed, not because of "politics."

That book turned out to be the blueprint gay activists would use in their campaign to normalize the abnormal through a variety of brainwashing techniques once catalogued by Robert Jay Lifton in his seminal work, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of Brainwashing in China.

In their book Kirk and Madsen urged that gay activists adopt the very strategies that helped change the political face of the largest nation on earth. The authors knew the techniques had worked in China. All they needed was enough media-and enough money-to put them to work in the United States. And they did. These activists got the media and the money to radicalize America-by processes known as desensitization, jamming and conversion."

You should really take the compliment. They were actually more focused on copying the propaganda techniques used by those against them here.

And despite what you may believe, it is not the playbook for every single LGBT "activist" in the country. There's really not a monolithic group. There are a number of different groups with different ideas on how best to achieve the primary goals (legal, social, and economic parity). After the Ball is simply one such idea.

" Over the years, I found that those of my patients who really wanted to change could do so, by attaining the insight that comes with a good psychoanalysis."

He has two choices. He could publish his studies, become world famous overnight, and give a huge blow to the gay rights movement, or he could refuse to publish his studies, and continue making wild claims without any proof to back them up.

"...Now we are getting reports, even in such gay publications as The Journal of Homosexuality, that the gay-gene studies and the gay-brain studies do not stand up to critical analysis. (The author of one so-called "gay-gene theory" is under investigation by the National Institutes of Health for scientific fraud.)"

"This is one reason why psychoanalysis is the tool that gets us to the heart of everything. Once my patients have achieved an insight into these dynamics-and realized there is no moral fault involved in their longtime and mysterious need-they have moved rather quickly on the road to recovery. ..."

"Well, what are we to think when militant homosexuals seek to lower the age of consensual sexual intercourse between homosexual men and young boys to the age of 14 (as they did in Hawaii in 1993) or 16 (as they tried to do in England in 1994)? In the Washington March for Gay Pride in 1993, they chanted, "We're here. We're queer. And we're coming after your children.""

Do you consider the Ku Klux Klan as being representative of all white people?

Why, then, would you take a group of a few hundred perverts at a gay pride parade in a single city in a single year, out of the 8 - 16 million likely living in the United States?

 

[wanderingone]

http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/socarides.html

excerpts from an article that first appeared in

America
November 18, 1995​

[bolds mine]​

How America Went Gay
by Charles W. Socarides, M.D.​

"For more than 20 years, I and a few of my colleagues in the field of psychoanalysis have felt like an embattled minority, because we have continued to insist, against today's conventional wisdom, that gays aren't born that way. We know that obligatory homosexuals are caught up in unconscious adaptations to early childhood abuse and neglect and that, with insight into their earliest beginnings, they can change..."

"In 1972 and 1973 they co-opted the leadership of the American Psychiatric Association and, through a series of political maneuvers, lies and outright flim-flams, they "cured" homosexuality overnight-by fiat. They got the A.P.A. to say that same-sex sex was "not a disorder." It was merely "a condition"-as neutral as lefthandedness. "

" ...After the Ball: How America Will Conquer its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 1990's, by Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen.

That book turned out to be the blueprint gay activists would use in their campaign to normalize the abnormal through a variety of brainwashing techniques once catalogued by Robert Jay Lifton in his seminal work, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of Brainwashing in China.

In their book Kirk and Madsen urged that gay activists adopt the very strategies that helped change the political face of the largest nation on earth. The authors knew the techniques had worked in China. All they needed was enough media-and enough money-to put them to work in the United States. And they did. These activists got the media and the money to radicalize America-by processes known as desensitization, jamming and conversion."

"Excuse me. Gay is not good. Gay is not decidedly free. How do I know this? For more than 40 years, I have been in solidarity with hundreds of homosexuals, my patients, and I have spent most of my professional life engaged in exercising a kind of "pastoral care" on their behalf. But I do not help them by telling them they are O.K. when they are not O.K. ..."

" Over the years, I found that those of my patients who really wanted to change could do so, by attaining the insight that comes with a good psychoanalysis."

"...Now we are getting reports, even in such gay publications as The Journal of Homosexuality, that the gay-gene studies and the gay-brain studies do not stand up to critical analysis. (The author of one so-called "gay-gene theory" is under investigation by the National Institutes of Health for scientific fraud.)"

"This is one reason why psychoanalysis is the tool that gets us to the heart of everything. Once my patients have achieved an insight into these dynamics-and realized there is no moral fault involved in their longtime and mysterious need-they have moved rather quickly on the road to recovery. ..."

"Well, what are we to think when militant homosexuals seek to lower the age of consensual sexual intercourse between homosexual men and young boys to the age of 14 (as they did in Hawaii in 1993) or 16 (as they tried to do in England in 1994)? In the Washington March for Gay Pride in 1993, they chanted, "We're here. We're queer. And we're coming after your children.""

Socarides couldn't manage to be happy in his own marriage(s) (he had 4 of them) and despite all his theories never managed to "straighten out" his own son (Richard)

As for the notion that homosexuals as a group are running around trying to have sex with children...
Plenty of heterosexuals (on these very forums) have suggested "age of consent" laws are not valid, that young girls know exactly what they are doing and men should not be punished for having sex with minors... so let's not act like the idea of being free to sleep with children is a homosexual notion...

 

[TheManeki]

I remember hearing about a family of eight children, mixed boys and girls, and four of the children were gay. I believe it was one lesbian and two gay men. Really interesting. It leads me to believe that homosexuality is genetic. That's my belief, but you can never be sure.

That reminds me of some studies that have proposed a link between birth order and homosexuality: The more older brother and sisters you have, the more likely you are to be gay. Come to think of it, all my gay friends are the youngest in their families, with their older siblings all straight. More at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_birth_order_and_sexual_orientation

I also remember an interesting documentary on transsexuals, which stated that about half of people who complete gender reassignment end up changing sexual preference. For example, the documentary showed a woman who liked women, and after surgery she became a man who liked men. (nb Even with the sexual preference shift, s/he felt more comfortable in his/her identity as a man than she ever did when s/he was a woman.)

Wikipedia has some more interesting info on biological and environmental theories of homosexuality. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Theories_on_homosexuality) What I've seen and read leads me to think that heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality, and transsexuality are mostly biological in origin. Environment can influence things to some degree (especially if you're in the bi-straight regions), but not as much as biology.

 

[MercyBurst]

http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/socarides.html


In every single study where it is A) clear that the participants are probably homosexual, and not bisexual B) the participants are not members of reparative therapy programs in which they are in paid or unpaid staff positions, [/quotes]

Money orientation is stronger than sex orientation -- good point good point.

Why not go to a therapist instead of ex-gay ministry?
Go see a degreed and licensed therapist instead, like some on this forum have done -- and succeeded!!!!

and C) sexual orientation is tested, rather than sexual behavior, no more than 4% of participants are able to change their sexual orientation.

Why didn't they change therapists?

Even if we were to take Exodus International and other such groups' claims as true, despite the fact that they have no proof, we'd still have 70% of the lesbian, gay, and bisexual population unable to become heterosexual.

Se a licensed thrapist insted -- they get results.

And not only that, but even the leaders of reparative therapy groups, such as Alan Chambers, or some of the founders of Exodus International, admit that their homosexual feelings never left them. In fact, the founders of Exodus admitted that the entire program was a sham.

Feelings never leave anyone -- I'm an ex-substance abuser for 25 years. Yeah, I feel the urge every now and then, but I don't give in. Drugs are just an illusion of happiness.

What actually happened is that homosexuality was defined by those "in need" of psychiatric help. Imagine for a moment that the only straight persons you visited were those in prison, in psychiatric wards, and those that visited you for depression, anxiety, and what-have-you.

Ther are a lot of them there to. When my wife was a mental health nurse only about a quarter of the patients were gay or bisexual.

You might come to the conclusion that all straight people are horrifically imbalanced individuals.

I've noticed thatabout every gay I've ever seen has something a little off. The wife says the same thing. Something ain't working right. You can tell it before you find out they are gay. The APA changed all that in '74.

It was the same thing here. But when one scientist was approached by a gay former student, who asked her to examine homosexuals in the population at large, she agreed. Upon studying homosexuals who were not incarcerated, committed, or mentally unstable in the first place, but those living out in the general population, it became apparent that none of the scientists were able to tell the difference between a healthy homosexual and a healthy straight person.

How would they be able to tell? Listening to the patient talk? That's kind of like listening to paid staff from ex-gay ministry isn't it?

That is why homosexuality was removed, not because of "politics."

Sure it was. sure sure. and it isn't just gay that was removed from the APA's list.

You should really take the compliment. They were actually more focused on copying the propaganda techniques used by those against them here.

Nothing wrong with propaganda -- as long as it's honest.

And despite what you may believe, it is not the playbook for every single LGBT "activist" in the country. There's really not a monolithic group. There are a number of different groups with different ideas on how best to achieve the primary goals (legal, social, and economic parity). After the Ball is simply one such idea.

Why not let NAMBLA have their way?

He has two choices. He could publish his studies, become world famous overnight, and give a huge blow to the gay rights movement, or he could refuse to publish his studies, and continue making wild claims without any proof to back them up.

Meantime, ex-gay therapy just keeps going and going and going.

Do you consider the Ku Klux Klan as being representative of all white people?

Probably not, since white people been around longer.

Why, then, would you take a group of a few hundred perverts at a gay pride parade in a single city in a single year, out of the 8 - 16 million likely living in the United States?

I wonder if they were the same ones involved in the APA's gay coup d'etat back in '74.

 

[Peach81]

Why not go to a therapist instead of ex-gay ministry?

Most therapists agree that homosexuality isn't a mental disability, and therefore, cannot be changed.

I've noticed thatabout every gay I've ever seen has something a little off. The wife says the same thing. Something ain't working right.

I get the same feeling with fundies.

Nothing wrong with propaganda -- as long as it's honest.

There's always something wrong with spreading around loaded messages which take disparate facts and deliberately twisting them into misleading information.

Why not let NAMBLA have their way?

Because they are pedophiles who prey on children. Nobody campaigning for them here.

Meantime, ex-gay therapy just keeps going and going and going.

Is that so? Because according to American Psychiatric Association, reparative therapy is useless and doesn't work. In fact, it is seen as potentially harmful. I find it very hard to believe that a country full of mental health professionals can all have some "gay agenda."
http://www.psych.org/pnews/99-01-15/therapy.html

 

[TheManeki]

Go see a degreed and licensed therapist instead, like some on this forum have done -- and succeeded!!!!

A friend of mine is a licensed therapist in Seattle, and she told me that most therapists (including herself) are trained to get their patients comfortable with their innate sexualities. Reparative theory is to be saved only as a last resort (and still used very carefully), because of the extreme stress it can put on already fragile psyches and lead to suicide or similar. She's handled two such cases in her past three years, and both were successfully taken care of without reparative therapy -- they basically came to grips that it's okay to be gay, despite what others think.

I wonder if they were the same ones involved in the APA's gay coup d'etat back in '74.

Funny you should bring that up. This American Life recently aired a story on this event, and it's worth listening to if you have an hour to spare. You can hear it online at http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1188

 

[HaloHope]

"Well, what are we to think when militant homosexuals seek to lower the age of consensual sexual intercourse between homosexual men and young boys to the age of 14 (as they did in Hawaii in 1993) or 16 (as they tried to do in England in 1994)?

Other than being one of the most ridiculous things I have read this bit about "militant homosexuals" seeking to change the age of consent to 16 in England. The reason people wanted it changed was because it was the exsisting age of consent for hetrosexuals. Not some agenda to have sex with "children" (a 16 year old is not a child) they merely wanted the same rights the hetrosexuals had.

 

[Colabomb]

Various and sundry influences. Biology, Chemistry, Psyhology, Nature, nurture etc.

 

[Mumei]

Money orientation is stronger than sex orientation -- good point good point.

... What?

Why not go to a therapist instead of ex-gay ministry?
Go see a degreed and licensed therapist instead, like some on this forum have done -- and succeeded!!!!

I believe you are confused. Real therapists do not involve themselves in ex-gay ministry or therapy, because real therapists are accredited by the various professional organizations, all of which condemn attempts at changing sexual orientation.

Furthermore, a change in personal identity does not constitute a change in sexual orientation. Alan Chambers calls himself "straight," but that doesn't mean that he's not attracted towards men. It means that he calls himself straight. That is all that it means. The people on this forum who have gone to ex-gay therapy have gone through a similar change in personal identity. Their same-sex attractions are still there, and they are still gay. The difference is that they've decided not to acknowledge that part of themselves and adopt a different personal identity.

You should go to a Love Won Out conference some time, and listen to the presentations. The word "change" does not mean "you'll be straight," at all.

Why didn't they change therapists?

They didn't change therapists because this is a part of a study. They studied in the individuals in a study and found that no more than 4% were able to change. In other studies, with different therapists, the numbers remained at 0% - 4%. Changing therapists doesn't have an effect.

Se a licensed thrapist insted -- they get results.

Then why is it that reparative therapy is condemned by every single major health, psychiatric, and pediatric organization in the country?

Go on, tell me that the homosexuals have taken it over. I haven't heard paranoid ravings about how the homosexuals are able to control everything in days.

Ther are a lot of them there to. When my wife was a mental health nurse only about a quarter of the patients were gay or bisexual.

It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that people like you call them sick, depraved, perverted, child molesters, disgusting, sinful, hell bound, and more, could it? It couldn't be the constant internalization of horrific messages sent to them by people like you!

No, they're just sick people. You aren't guilty in the least of perpetuating that mindset, are you?

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I've noticed thatabout every gay I've ever seen has something a little off. The wife says the same thing. Something ain't working right. You can tell it before you find out they are gay. The APA changed all that in '74.

Is that so? Because I've never had anyone tell me that.

But, hey, maybe I'm wrong.

Tell me why I'm sick and depraved.

How would they be able to tell? Listening to the patient talk? That's kind of like listening to paid staff from ex-gay ministry isn't it?

Psychological inventory tests. They had actual studies. They tested "healthy" gay people and "healthy" straight people, and none of the psychiatrists / psychologists could differentiate between the two based purely on the reading psychological inventory tests. There was no discernible difference in mental health.

Nothing wrong with propaganda -- as long as it's honest.

Don't talk to me about honesty when the side you support does nothing but lie.

There's nothing honest about claiming that hate crimes legislation is going to prevent preaching against homosexuality. There's nothing honest about telling the citizens of Colorado that two gay men raped and castrated a little boy weeks before a local election. There's nothing honest about claiming that homosexuals die, on average, in their forties. There is nothing honest about the claim that most child molesters are homosexuals. There is nothing honest about claiming that homosexuals are inherently more diseased. There is nothing honest about claiming that homosexuals are richer. There is nothing honest about claiming that homosexuals recruit children. There is nothing honest about claiming that LGBT people can change their orientation.

There is nothing honest about any anti-gay arguments, and every single person who repeats them is a liar or ignorant.

Why not let NAMBLA have their way?

.... Because it's bad for the children?

Meantime, ex-gay therapy just keeps going and going and going.

I realize you don't believe that gays are people, and that their deaths aren't worth mourning, but ex-gay therapy creates more dead bodies than it creates straight ones.

... Oh, wait. Now it makes sense. You just want them to kill themselves? Well, that's a perfect reason to support ex-gay therapy.

I wonder if they were the same ones involved in the APA's gay coup d'etat back in '74.

There was no coup d'etat.

Reality is simply pro-gay.

 

[MrPirate]

Money orientation is stronger than sex orientation -- good point good point.

Money must be the motivation for reparative therapists to abandon their ethics and lie to patients about homosexuality and changing sexual oriention.

Why not go to a therapist instead of ex-gay ministry?
Go see a degreed and licensed therapist instead, like some on this forum have done -- and succeeded!!!!

Wow…there are actual Christians here willing to claim they changed from homosexual (Kinsey scale 6) to heterosexual (Kinsey scale 0)???
Amazing.

Why didn't they change therapists?

Those in reparative therapy usually do…and end up with a therapist who doesn’t lie to them about sexual oriention and helps them repair the damage done by reparative therapy.

Se a licensed thrapist insted -- they get results.

Lying and causing harm are results?

Feelings never leave anyone -- I'm an ex-substance abuser for 25 years. Yeah, I feel the urge every now and then, but I don't give in. Drugs are just an illusion of happiness.

Just like victims of reparative therapy, they don’t actually change.

Ther are a lot of them there to. When my wife was a mental health nurse only about a quarter of the patients were gay or bisexual.

And for you to find this out she would have to violate privacy and confidentiality laws.

I've noticed thatabout every gay I've ever seen has something a little off. The wife says the same thing. Something ain't working right. You can tell it before you find out they are gay. The APA changed all that in '74.



How would they be able to tell? Listening to the patient talk? That's kind of like listening to paid staff from ex-gay ministry isn't it?

I believe that Mumei is referring to the work of Evelyn Hooker. She presented healthy heterosexuals and healthy homosexuals to psychiatrists, despite the fantasy of homosexuals “a little off” and “you can just tell” the psychiatrists could not tell at all.

Sure it was. sure sure. and it isn't just gay that was removed from the APA's list.

Please present evidence to substantiate your claim that homosexuality was removed form the DSM because of politics

Nothing wrong with propaganda -- as long as it's honest.

To bad the propaganda of ex-gay ministries and reparative therapies is chuck full of lies.

Why not let NAMBLA have their way?

Why? Are you a member?

Meantime, ex-gay therapy just keeps going and going and going.

So does the KKK…that doesn’t make the lies the tell about race true or the hate they preach good or moral.

I wonder if they were the same ones involved in the APA's gay coup d'etat back in '74.

I will again ask for evidence…even thou I don’t believe for one second you will actually back up your claims

 

[MercyBurst]

Money must be the motivation for reparative therapists to abandon their ethics and lie to patients about homosexuality and changing sexual oriention.

It must be a motivation for them to change their own sexual behavior as well. It's kind of hard to stay in business talking out of both sides of their mouth.

Wow…there are actual Christians here willing to claim they changed from homosexual (Kinsey scale 6) to heterosexual (Kinsey scale 0)???
Amazing.

yep.

Please present evidence to substantiate your claim that homosexuality was removed form the DSM because of politics

sure

how about this excerpt from the gay-affirming ZUR institute:

DSM: Diagnosing for Money and Power

This a must-read web page for all the gay affirmers of which Dr. Zur is definately one.

Here's a little excerpt from Dr. Zur:

The DSM is more a political document than a scientific one. Decisions regarding inclusion or exclusion of disorders are made by majority vote rather than by indisputable scientific data.

• One telling example is the declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder. Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder in the DSM until 1974, when gay activists demonstrated in front of the American Psychiatric Association Convention. The APA's 1974 vote showed 5,854 members supporting and 3,810 opposing the disorder's removal from the manual. At that time, the American Psychiatric Association made headlines by announcing that it had decided homosexuality was no longer a mental illness. Voting on what constitutes mental illness is truly bizarre and, needless to say, is political and unscientific.
• External political pressure can result, apparently, in the inclusion of a diagnostic category. For example, PTSD was included in the DSM-III as a result of massive lobbying on its behalf by Vietnam vets and their supporters. Prior to that, PTSD sufferers were routinely diagnosed with character disorders.
• Due to a deadlock in gender politics, Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder (PMDD) was placed in the Appendix.

The DSM.....Political science CAN BE a work of art.

I will again ask for evidence…even thou I don’t believe for one second you will actually back up your claims

Ok I'll give you a few examples:

Summary of Evidence Found
The studies which were examined provide evidence of change. This section summarizes this evidence by category.

Acquisition of Heterosexual Behaviour:

A total of 86 persons who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual, acquired heterosexual behaviour.
1. One man who was at least predominantly homosexual (K5) became exclusively heterosexual in behaviour. Almost 20 years of follow-up. See the full summary for Joseph Berger.
2. 14 men who had been exclusively homosexual became exclusively heterosexual in behaviour. A five-year follow-up was done for seven of these men. See the full summary for Irving Bieber et al.
3. 18 men who had been exclusively homosexual acquired heterosexual behaviour. No follow-up data was provided. See Lee Birk.
4. Six men who were predominantly homosexual became exclusively heterosexual in behaviour. Another 9 men who were predominantly homosexual acquired heterosexual behaviour. An average of 4 years of follow-up. See the full summary for Alejandro Cantón-Dutari.
5. One man who was at least predominantly homosexual (K5) became exclusively heterosexual in behaviour and also became attracted to women. No follow-up data was provided. See Jay L. Liss & Amos Welner.
6. Ten persons who previously were exclusively or predominantly homosexual, were able to interact sexually in satisfying ways with an opposite-sex partner at the end of treatment. Follow-up data was not divided by category.
One of these ten was followed up five years later. "R" remained married, now has children, and "both partners describe an effective marriage" (Masters & Johnson, p. 353). This would seem to demonstrate some acquisition of heterosexual attraction as well as acquisition of heterosexual behaviour. See William H. Masters & Virginia E. Johnson.
7. Two men who had been exclusively homosexual, and four men who had been mostly homosexual, were said to be "able to derive pleasure and satisfaction in [heterosexual] intercourse most of the time, with only minor difficulties or dissatisfaction." Average follow-up of 4.5 years. See Peter Mayerson & Harold I. Lief.
8. Twenty overt homosexuals "developed full heterosexual functioning and were able to develop love feelings for their heterosexual partners" (Socarides, p. 406). Follow-up data was not provided. See Charles W. Socarides.
9. One man who was exclusively or predominantly homosexual was able to become involved in long-term heterosexual behaviour. Six year follow-up. See Leon Wallace.

Partial Sexual Orientation Shift:

A total of 287 persons who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual, experienced a partial shift in sexual orientation.
1. One man who was initially exclusively homosexual became attracted to women, started having heterosexual fantasies, and became sexually active with women. He became predominantly heterosexual. Nine-month follow-up. See the full summary for David H. Barlow and W. Stewart Agras.
2. One man who received 14 sessions of covert sensitization changed from predominantly homosexual (K5) to predominantly heterosexual (K1). Four and a half year follow-up. See the full summary for Edward J. Callahan.
3. One exclusively homosexual man experienced a partial shift in sexual orientation after udergoing rational psychotherapy. Follow-up based only on two letters received in the three and a half years since the end of therapy. See the full summary for Albert Ellis.
4. One predominantly homosexual man was able to "enjoy mature, consistent, satisfactory heterosexual adjustment without significant conflicts" (Hatterer, p.469), but has occasional homosexual fantasies. Three year follow-up. See the full summary for Lawrence J. Hatterer.
5. 276 homosexual people became heterosexual in more than just their behaviour. Follow-up data was not reported. See Houston MacIntosh.
6. One exclusively homosexual woman experienced a partial shift in sexual orientation. Five year follow-up. See William H. Masters & Virginia E. Johnson.
7. Five exclusively homosexual men experienced a "reversal of the psychological responsiveness from a predominantly homosexual to a predominantly heterosexual one" (Saghir and Robins, quoted in Pattison & Pattison 1980, p. 1560). This means that while before, their desires, fantasies and attractions were predominantly toward other men, these are now directed toward women. Four year average follow-up. See E. Mansell Pattison & Myrna Loy Pattison.
8. One man who was at least predominantly homosexual (K5) became attracted to women, now fantasizes exclusively about women, and has become exclusively heterosexual in behaviour. No follow-up data was provided. See the full summary for Roberta Ann Shechter.

Full Sexual Orientation Shift:

A total of 45 persons who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual experienced a full shift of sexual orientation.
1. Four men who had been exclusively homosexual became exclusively heterosexual. Follow-up of 18 months. See the full summary for William Freeman & Robert G. Meyer.
2. One exclusively homosexual man became exclusively heterosexual, after being treated for severe social phobia. No follow-up data was provided. See the full summary for Daniel H. Golwyn & Carol P. Sevlie.
3. Twelve men who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual "progressed to an exclusively heterosexual pattern of adjustment" (Hadden, p. 15). Follow-up data was not reported. See Samuel B. Hadden.
4. Four exclusively and two predominantly homosexual men became exclusively heterosexual. Three of these were followed-up 30 years later; for the other three, follow-up data was not reported. See J.A. Hadfield.
5. Four exclusively and seven predominantly homosexual men became able to "enjoy mature, consistent, satisfactory heterosexual adjustment without significant conflicts" (p. 469). Average follow-up of 5.8 years. See Lawrence J. Hatterer.
6. One man who had been exclusively homosexual became exclusively heterosexual. Follow-up of 3 1/2 years. See William H. Masters & Virginia E. Johnson (from Schwartz & Masters, 1984).
7. Three men who were exclusively or predominantly homosexual, are "enjoying heterosexuality" or "satisfying heterosexual relationships." Follow-up data was not reported. See Elizabeth E. Mintz.
8. An exclusively homosexual man became exclusively heterosexual. 20 month follow-up. See John S. Poe.
9. Five men who had been exclusively homosexual experienced "radical change" and "the restoration of full heterosexuality." Minimum follow-up of 2 years. See Gerard J.M. van den Aardweg.
10. One exclusively homosexual man "spontaneously" found himself losing his attraction to men and becoming heterosexual. Minimum follow-up of 18 months. See Joseph Wolpe.

 

[MercyBurst]

Then why is it that reparative therapy is condemned by every single major health, psychiatric, and pediatric organization in the country?

When the two APAs went political, the rest followed suit.

Besides you are exagerrating, the CDMA doesn't go along with all the knee-jerks.

Lots of scientific data over there at the CDMA.

Here's one of several hundred references:

MacIntosh, H. (1995) Attitudes and Experiences of Psychoanalysts in Analyzing Homosexual Patients. Journal of the American Psychiatric Association 1183.

422 psychiatrists were asked if they had successfully treated homosexuals, and did they agree that a homosexual can be changed to heterosexual. Of the 285 responses, which involved 1,215 homosexuals, the survey stated that 23% changed to heterosexuality. 84% benefited significantly by reducing their attraction to other members of the same gender, with a decrease in homosexual activity.

Weren't you saying it's unethical for psychiatrists to treat homosexuals to produce change in sexual orientation?