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What do you believe in?

Do you believe in free will or predestination? (Baptists only)

  • Free will

  • Predestination

  • Neither

  • Undecided


Results are only viewable after voting.

GrayAngel

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Romans 9:11-23 ESV
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

‪Does God Love Everyone?‬‏ - YouTube

When I watched through that whole video, I just had to laugh sometimes. He's so brutal. But he reminds me a lot of Paul.

Paul was definitely not nice with the people he disagreed with. One time he said that he wished a group of people would castrate themselves. But, everything he said was truth. And the guy above is the same way. He doesn't use pretty, sensitive words when he speaks, but everything he says is consistent with what the Bible teaches. And I respect him for that.
 
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cubinity

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Can you offer anything other than assertions? Perhaps you can explain Acts 13:48 to us? Or Eph 1:4-11? Or Romans 8:30? Or 2 Thess 2:13?

When I assert, I assert. When I explain, I explain.
Sure, I 'll explain when I get off work.
 
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cubinity

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Time and time again, I prove my views with scripture, and you counter with your own logic. Then you claim that my views are not Biblical.

Have you read Job? Look at it. It describes exactly what I'm talking about:

Satan comes to God saying that he had roamed the whole earth, and he could not find anyone left to corrupt. And how does God respond? Does He say, "Get away from me, Satan! I want nothing to do with you!"? Nope. Instead, He says, "Have you considered Job?"

God had just given Satan his new target. Then Satan said, "I bet if I do this to him, he'll curse you!" But God replied, "Go ahead and do it. But I know he won't curse me."

Are you following? Has my account of this story been inaccurate in any way?

Here we see that God was using Satan. Satan's goal was to destroy Job's faith and prove God wrong. But God's intention was not for evil.

Again, we see God using evil people for His plans in the book of Exodus. When the Israelites were enslaved to Egypt, God sent Moses to the pharaoh.

"Let my people go!" Moses demands.

But God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and so he said no.

Moses then strikes a plague on Egypt, and he again returns to the pharaoh. "Let my people go!"

Again, God hardened his heart so that he could only give one response. "No."

Over and over again, this repeats, until finally, Moses delivers the final plague, and the pharaoh lets the Israelites go. But what happens almost immediately after? Yet again, God hardened the heart of the pharaoh, and the Egyptians chased after the Israelites, and get swallowed up by the sea.

Exodus 10:1-2 - Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD.”

God had control over the pharaoh. When God hardened his heart, the pharaoh responded accordingly. Then, when God allowed it, he finally let the Israelites go free. But again, God hardened the pharaoh's heart. And why did He do that?

Exodus 14:8 - The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.

Joshua 11:20 - For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Now tell me again how my view of God is not Biblical...?

Simple, really. You assert that god is the only one making choices in your argument for predestination. You assert that everything that happens is God's script, a script that never gets deviated from in any way.

These stories all contain characters that are making choices and interacting with God of their own volition.

Thus, your argument is not consistent with your own examples given.

No?
 
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GrayAngel

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Simple, really. You assert that god is the only one making choices in your argument for predestination. You assert that everything that happens is God's script, a script that never gets deviated from in any way.

These stories all contain characters that are making choices and interacting with God of their own volition.

Thus, your argument is not consistent with your own examples given.

No?

No. Can you read? It clearly says that GOD was the one acting. GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart SO the pharaoh would act. God would the one making the moves.

These are clearly NOT people making their own choices.

Joshua 11:20 - For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Where do you see free will in this? Does it say that Egypt acted in their own will against God? No. What I see is that Lord hardened pharaoh's heart, causing him to wage war against Israel. He did this with the plan of destroying them.

Furthermore, you haven't explained why God was working together with Satan. As you have asserted, God cannot have anything to do with evil. Why, then, did He suggest that Satan torture Job?
 
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Skala

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Gray:

I think you may be doing more harm than good my friend :)

You can't argue that men don't use their wills. They do.

But the Bible says "The king's heart is as a stream of water in the hands of the Lord, he turns it wherever He wills" - Prov 21:1

So we know God is sovereign over humans - and their wills. But at the same time, humans use their wills to carry out God's plan. They don't carry out God's plan without acting, or without choosing, or without using their wills in some way. God uses humans to fulfill his own purposes.

Example Acts 4:27-28

"Wicked men gathered against Christ to do whatever [God's] hand and plan predestined to occur"

So God decreed that such a thing happen against Christ, yet at the same time, the action was carried out by wicked men using their wills. Wicked men freely and willingly did the evil against Christ that was in their hearts. Yet the whole thing was God's sovereign plan and purpose.

Pharaoh chose (with his will) to rebel against God, but it's because God hardened his heart. It's not as if God hardened his heart and then pharaoh didn't rebel, but sat there like a stone. Pharaoh acted in accordance with whatever God's plan and purpose was. Get it? :thumbsup:
 
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cubinity

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No. Can you read? It clearly says that GOD was the one acting. GOD hardened Pharaoh's heart SO the pharaoh would act. God would the one making the moves.

These are clearly NOT people making their own choices.

Joshua 11:20 - For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Where do you see free will in this? Does it say that Egypt acted in their own will against God? No. What I see is that Lord hardened pharaoh's heart, causing him to wage war against Israel. He did this with the plan of destroying them.

Furthermore, you haven't explained why God was working together with Satan. As you have asserted, God cannot have anything to do with evil. Why, then, did He suggest that Satan torture Job?

I have asserted no such thing. Are you sure you read me right?
 
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cubinity

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Gray:

I think you may be doing more harm than good my friend :)

You can't argue that men don't use their wills. They do.

But the Bible says "The king's heart is as a stream of water in the hands of the Lord, he turns it wherever He wills" - Prov 21:1

So we know God is sovereign over humans - and their wills. But at the same time, humans use their wills to carry out God's plan. They don't carry out God's plan without acting, or without choosing, or without using their wills in some way. God uses humans to fulfill his own purposes.

Example Acts 4:27-28

"Wicked men gathered against Christ to do whatever [God's] hand and plan predestined to occur"

So God decreed that such a thing happen against Christ, yet at the same time, the action was carried out by wicked men using their wills. Wicked men freely and willingly did the evil against Christ that was in their hearts. Yet the whole thing was God's sovereign plan and purpose.

Pharaoh chose (with his will) to rebel against God, but it's because God hardened his heart. It's not as if God hardened his heart and then pharaoh didn't rebel, but sat there like a stone. Pharaoh acted in accordance with whatever God's plan and purpose was. Get it? :thumbsup:

Brilliant. Very cool.
 
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cubinity

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Can you offer anything other than assertions? Perhaps you can explain Acts 13:48 to us? Or Eph 1:4-11? Or Romans 8:30? Or 2 Thess 2:13?

I am willing to give explanation to each of these, as promised. But, I get the impression you and I agree more than disagree based on your last post. As you pointed out, the arguments I was opposing were blatantly off-base, even from your perspective.

But I promised, so here goes:

Regarding Acts 13:48 - It says here that they were appointed/ordained to eternal life. This doesn't say anything about pre-anything, so I'm not sure how it's relevant to the discussion. Perhaps you could tell me what you think it means, and I could respond to that. As I read it, this does nothing to refute the concept of one's freedom to willfully choose anything.

Regarding Ephesians 1:4-11 - The Bible consistently deals with the duality inherent in the human condition. On the one hand, God initially created us with our best interests in mind. He set out to lavish upon us the richness of His glory. He intended us to be heirs to paradise, inheritors of eternal life. Then, sin changed all of that. Sin passed from parent to child, and in our fallen state, we were destined to stumble and fall short of His glory. But, God never forgot His first love. He never forgot His original design. He never abandoned His commitment to our true destiny. Thus, He brought Christ to fruition as the ultimate sacrifice, showed His unending love for us, and through the richness of His mercy, restored us as inheritors of eternal life through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Therefore, whether the Bible speaks of God choosing us before the foundations of the earth, that we would be holy and blameless before Him, or it speaks of those who continue to stumble as they were appointed to do, it is speaking the truth concerning our fallen condition as humans and our restored position as heirs. None of this, however, conflicts with free will, in my understanding.

Romans 8:30 - wife is calling for dinner. I'll explain in a bit.

2 Thess 2:13 - wife is calling for dinner. I'll explain in a bit.
 
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cubinity

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Dinner was great!

Okay, where was I? Oh, yeah, Romans...

Regarding Romans 8:30 - The entire passage (v. 26-39) is Paul encouraging his audience that God know what they need, and is fully invested in their well-being. He reminds them that this is not only God's desire for them now, but has been forever. If things had gone according to the original design, and A&E hadn't eaten that fruit, they wouldn't even be worrying about their own well-being today. But, alas, they are worrying, and for good reason. Sin--not just their own, but also that of others--has cast a shadow over them. They know they are in that shadow, and they despair. But, God, continuing to see them in light of the original design, is calling them out of that darkness, and into the light of His glory, where they are perpetually cared for. They were, in a time before sin and death, predestined for God's good and infinite provision. It is to that original predestination, which is easy to lose sight of in the darkness of this difficult life, that God is calling them back to. Thus, the apostle speaks confidently of their predestination, their call, their justification, and their glory.

Regarding 2 Thess. 2:13 - This, along the same lines as the above two, speaks of God's destiny for those who will live forever in His provision. As we recall from the Genesis account, all of mankind was designed and created with such a destiny in mind. The introduction of sin changed all of that, and we are left in a condition in which all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Nonetheless, no amount of darkness can make God forget the destiny He fashioned for His people. What strikes me about the specific context of this passage are some of the concepts introduced in the lines about it. Verse 2 reads, "that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed." This tells me that the individual does, in fact, have free will over their outlook, and is expected in response to this encouragement choose to maintain a positive outlook. Then, in verse 10, it reads, "...because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved." The because indicates that the following words are the cause of the preceding actions. In this case, not receiving the love of the truth is the cause of them perishing. Maybe they chose not to receive this love of the truth, and maybe it was forced upon them by God, but either way, the passage says this specific condition is the cause of their perishing.

Regarding all of these passages - The author is strategic to say that the positive is the destiny his audience was preordained for, and that the negative is not their inheritance. The question, remains, though, as to whether or not those who believe have, or have ever had, a different destiny than those who do not. I am not suggesting universal salvation. Rather, I am suggesting what I have said throughout this commentary, that there are two conditions dualistically at work in our existences. There is the original inheritance, to which we are restored through Christ, and there is the sin nature, which we have inherited through A&E. Therefore, if both are true for all of mankind, then the Bible's teaching about destiny is not in conflict with anything else the Bible teaches, and it is valid for us all to seek and proselytize the original destiny for all.

I hope this helps. Is you have any comments, I welcome them.

God bless.
 
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GrayAngel

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Gray:

I think you may be doing more harm than good my friend :)

You can't argue that men don't use their wills. They do.

But the Bible says "The king's heart is as a stream of water in the hands of the Lord, he turns it wherever He wills" - Prov 21:1

So we know God is sovereign over humans - and their wills. But at the same time, humans use their wills to carry out God's plan. They don't carry out God's plan without acting, or without choosing, or without using their wills in some way. God uses humans to fulfill his own purposes.

Example Acts 4:27-28

"Wicked men gathered against Christ to do whatever [God's] hand and plan predestined to occur"

So God decreed that such a thing happen against Christ, yet at the same time, the action was carried out by wicked men using their wills. Wicked men freely and willingly did the evil against Christ that was in their hearts. Yet the whole thing was God's sovereign plan and purpose.

Pharaoh chose (with his will) to rebel against God, but it's because God hardened his heart. It's not as if God hardened his heart and then pharaoh didn't rebel, but sat there like a stone. Pharaoh acted in accordance with whatever God's plan and purpose was. Get it? :thumbsup:

I don't disagree with anything you've said. This is another point I've spoken on before, but have been avoiding here for the sake of keeping it simple.

Yes. People have a will. The will is a person's emotional drive to act. But according to predestination, the human will is not free. Our will is the product of God's work, and is used by God to determine our actions. In the case of Pharaoh, God caused him to act against Israel by hardening his heart. And while God was manipulating Pharaoh, the pharaoh still felt the emotional drive to act in evil, which was designed in his nature.

Saying that we have a will often complicates things, though. To try to put it simply... At some points in our lives, we hit a crossroads, which we call a choice. To us, it looks like we can turn left or turn right. But our choice was already predetermined. God gave us our will, and the will determines our choice. While we are not free to choose, our choice is still consistent with our nature (unless God changes it).

It just so happens, however, that the very nature of who we are was also created by God. Satan may have started as an angel of light, but he was designed to fall, just like George Lucas designed Anakin Skywalker (AKA Darth Vader) to turn to the dark side.
 
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DeaconDean

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Yes. People have a will. The will is a person's emotional drive to act. But according to predestination, the human will is not free. Our will is the product of God's work, and is used by God to determine our actions.

For the most part, you are correct, and you are wrong.

Man does have a will, but as to the extent that it is free, that is the issue.

People have this delusional mind-set, like most Catholics that the doctrine of predestination makes people robots. That they cannot act in any manner contrary to what God has ordained to happen. And that simply isn't true.

Predestination sets the goal, not the path.

Our will is not always "the product of God's work". Yes, God did harden Pharoah's heart, but it also says Pharoah hardened his own heart also.

Back to the issue at hand. How "free" is mans "free-will"?

Arthur W. Pink defines "free-will" as:

What is the Will? We answer, the will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action. Choice necessarily implies the refusal of one thing and the acceptance of another. The positive and the negative must both be present to the mind before there can be any choice. In every act of the will there is a preference—the desiring of one thing rather than another. Where there is no preference, but complete indifference, there is no volition. To will is to choose, and to choose is to decide between two or more alternatives. But there is something which influences the choice; something which determines the decision. Hence the will cannot be sovereign because it is the servant of that something. The will cannot be both sovereign and servant. It cannot be both cause and effect. The will is not causative, because, as we have said, something causes it to choose, therefore that something must be the causative agent. Choice itself is affected by certain considerations, is determined by various influences brought to bear upon the individual himself, hence, volition is the effect of these considerations and influences, and if the effect, it must be their servant; and if the will is their servant then it is not sovereign, and if the will is not sovereign, we certainly cannot predicate absolute "freedom" of it. Acts of the will cannot come to pass of themselves—to say they can, is to postulate an uncaused effect. Ex nihilo nihil fit—nothing cannot produce something.

Arthur W. Pink, The Sovereignty of God, Chapter 7, The Sovereignty of God and the Human Will.

7. God's Sovereignty and the Human Will

Lets look back at Noah's time.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." -Gen. 6:5 (KJV)

Now, a year after the flood and it was time for Noah to come out, see what is recorded:

"I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;" -Gen. 8:21 (KJV)

Now, some 1200-1500 years later, we read:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" -Jer. 17:9 (KJV)

Now, lets jump ahead to Jesus and see what He says:

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:" -Mt. 15:18-20 (KJV)

The scriptures make it abundantly clear that the will is not sovereign and it is not "free". The heart is the controling factor and not the will. Hence:

But there is something which influences the choice; something which determines the decision. Hence the will cannot be sovereign because it is the servant of that something. The will cannot be both sovereign and servant.

Ibid

Man cannot just one day be walking down the sidewalk and think to himself that he is gonna stop sinning and obey God.

Man does not say I chose to accept God because I chose to of my own free will.

God does the drawing, the Holy Spirit does the convicting and regenerating.

The Psalmist says:

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." -Psa. 51:10 (KJV)

It isn't until you have been regenerated and given a new heart that your will is somewhat free.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." -Jn. 8:32 (KJV)

Free from what?

Free from the bondage to sin.

A.W. Pink also comments:

The sinner is ‘free’ in the sense of being unforced from without. God never forces the sinner to sin. But the sinner is not free to do either good or evil, because an evil heart within is ever inclining him toward sin. Let us illustrate what we have in mind. I hold in my hand a book. I release it; what happens? It falls. In which direction? Downwards; always downwards. Why? Because, answering the law of gravity, its own weight sinks it. Suppose I desire that book to occupy a position three feet higher; then what? I must lift it; a power outside of that book must raise it. Such is the relationship which fallen man sustains toward God. Whilst Divine power upholds him, he is preserved from plunging still deeper into sin; let that power be withdrawn, and he falls—his own weight (of sin) drags him down. God does not push him down, anymore than I did that book. Let all Divine restraint be removed, and every man is capable of becoming, would become, a Cain, a Pharaoh, a Judas. How then is the sinner to move heavenwards? By an act of his own will? Not so. A power outside of himself must grasp hold of him and lift him every inch of the way. The sinner is free, but free in one direction only—free to fall, free to sin. As the Word expresses it: "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). The sinner is free to do as he pleases, always as he pleases (except as he is restrained by God), but his pleasure is to sin.

Ibid.

Man does have a will, but to the extent that it is free, it is a servant to sin and until that bondage is broken, mans will is never truly free.

For further reading, try "The Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther.

Great book!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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See my post #125. I answer both questions on God's sovereignty and man's responsibility.

My response had nothing to do with God's Sovereignty and mans responsibility.

My response was to the notion of "free will" and it just so happened to come from Arthur W. Pink's great work "The Sovereignty of God".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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twin1954

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My response had nothing to do with God's Sovereignty and mans responsibility.

My response was to the notion of "free will" and it just so happened to come from Arthur W. Pink's great work "The Sovereignty of God".

God Bless

Till all are one.
I know brother. If you would read what I wrote you will see that I deal with man's supposed free-will. :thumbsup:
 
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DeaconDean

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I know brother. If you would read what I wrote you will see that I deal with man's supposed free-will. :thumbsup:

I read your post #125, and I'm in more of agreement with you than you know.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Any reaction to 229 and 230?

All I will say to you regarding this is what I said earlier:

Predestination sets the goal, not the path.

The Greek word used in the NT is only found twice.

And it is not the same Greek word used in Acts 13:48.

Acts 13:48 deals mainly with the evidence of "election".

Note that only those and those only who were "elected" believed: "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".

The Greek word used in Acts 13:48 is:

tassw,v \{tas'-so}
[SIZE=-1]1) to put in order, to station 1a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint 1a1) to assign (appoint) a thing to one 1b) to appoint, ordain, order 1b1) to appoint on one's own responsibility or authority 1b2) to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon [/SIZE]

Greek Lexicon

As said before, predestination sets the goal: "to be conformed to the image of his Son", not the path.

God Bless

Till alla re one.
 
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cubinity

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All I will say to you regarding this is what I said earlier:



The Greek word used in the NT is only found twice.

And it is not the same Greek word used in Acts 13:48.

Acts 13:48 deals mainly with the evidence of "election".

Note that only those and those only who were "elected" believed: "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".

The Greek word used in Acts 13:48 is:



Greek Lexicon

As said before, predestination sets the goal: "to be conformed to the image of his Son", not the path.

God Bless

Till alla re one.

Cool.
 
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GrayAngel

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Predestination sets the goal, not the path.
We agree on a lot of things, but this is something I do not agree with. Either we have free will, or we don't. The way I see it, there is no possibility for anything in between.

Unlike God, we did not always exist. We were created, and not even by random chance, but we were designed with a purpose. We only have the power to act within our own design.

Couple that with God's foreknowledge, and free will is completely blown out of the water. Not only did God create us, but He could see all of history before it even happened. If He had even changed one little detail, then all of history would have played out much differently. It is only reasonable to presume, then, that God intentionally molded history from the start, and that our actions are just as much a part of His creation as the hairs on our heads.

And not only did God create the train, as well as the tracks for it to run on, even then He would also come in and switch our tracks around whenever He wanted. In the Bible, we see God actively writing history as it's being made. The hardening of the pharaoh's heart is just one of many examples.

So then, God not only set the goal, but He also set the path.

We are not like robots, because we are alive, and we have emotions and motives behind our actions. However, we are like robots, in a sense. Robots can only function as they were designed to, as we were. We cannot surprise God.

This is why the disciples often called themselves "slaves" of God. We're all slaves to something, whether it's sin or God. We have no freedom of choice, but we have a different kind of freedom. Slavery under God is freedom from sin, and as the Bible says, God's "yoke is easy."

Isaiah 42:16 - I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them.

Jeremiah 31:9 - They will come with weeping; they will pray as I bring them back. I will lead them beside streams of water on a level path where they will not stumble, because I am Israel’s father, and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

Jeremiah 29:11 - "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
 
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