What do you believe in?

[cubinity]

Our sins are also works of God. God does them because he knows the end and knows it is good, so he isn't guilty of evil.

I think you misunderstood him. God doesn't sin. That's what He has Satan for: to keep His hands clean. Remember the story of Job? Satan answered to God in that story, and could never deviate from His will. Satan's intention was to harm Job, and to prove to God that He was wrong, but God's plans for Job were for his benefit.

No, I'm pretty sure I understood him.

Even if God gives the order, GOd is still the one doing the deed. In a principle and agent relationship, the principle is still the responsible party.

 

[GrayAngel]

Have you ever acted in a play?
Ever watched one more than once?
Ever seen the exact same one again, but with a different cast? Director? Sets?

If you are saying that is what God has prepared, then what you are describing cannot be predestination, since no two performances of a play are ever identical, even though the script never changes. Ever wondered why that is?

You're taking my analogy a bit too literally. There's no such thing as a perfect analogy.

God's "script" is never repeated. He has one set of actors, who perform only once. God is perfect, so deviating from the script would not improve it at all.

God gives us roles to play. He doesn't need us, but He chooses to use us.

 

[GrayAngel]

No, I'm pretty sure I understood him.

Even if God gives the order, GOd is still the one doing the deed. In a principle and agent relationship, the principle is still the responsible party.

If that's how you choose to look at it, fine. But that's God, according to the Bible.

But regardless of Satan's evil intentions, God's intentions are never for evil. He uses evil to bring good things. The only way to remove impurities from gold is to put it in fire. Satan is the fire, trying to destroy all in its path. But one in charge of the fire knows the good that will come of it.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Have any verses that back up that God sins, but just isn't culpable for it?
Book, chapter and verse, please.

As explained. The things that are for us sin are not sin for God because he knows everything and is actually doing a good work. We, on the other hand are evil and do the deeds that God predestined for us with evil intent and wicked glee.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

1 Peter 2:8 ESV
8 and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.


Acts 4:27-28 ESV
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Genesis 50:18-21 ESV
18 His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.” 19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. 21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

 

[cubinity]

You're taking my analogy a bit too literally. There's no such thing as a perfect analogy.

God's "script" is never repeated. He has one set of actors, who perform only once. God is perfect, so deviating from the script would not improve it at all.

God gives us roles to play. He doesn't need us, but He chooses to use us.

The point I was making, and why your analogy fails to communicate what you want it to, is that you are claiming that God makes us do what we do.

No one makes the actors do what they do.

The part that matters most is that the "director" is not an equal, making suggestions, but the God, hard-coding the behavior.

You say we're not robots, but you also say we aren't doing anything of our own volition. What is the difference?

If there is nothing I can do, apart from God pulling thing strings, then I am His puppet.

If I worship Him, it is because He makes me.
If I burn in hell, it is because He makes me.
If I have faith, it is because He makes me.
If I sin, it is because He makes me.
If I anything, it is because He makes me.

It is not even a matter of Him putting a gun to my head, because even then I have a choice. I can take the bullet. But, in your version of me, I don't even have that. I must do what He makes me do.

That being said, I am culpable for nothing, because God made me do it.

The problem with that is that flies in the face of the Biblical argument that if someone sins, he cannot say, "God made me do it," since God neither sins nor causes others to sin.

 

[cubinity]

If that's how you choose to look at it, fine. But that's God, according to the Bible.

But regardless of Satan's evil intentions, God's intentions are never for evil. He uses evil to bring good things. The only way to remove impurities from gold is to put it in fire. Satan is the fire, trying to destroy all in its path. But one in charge of the fire knows the good that will come of it.

But the God you are describing in this post is not consistent with the God you seem to be describing in your other arguments.

It is not, as you say, a God that "uses evil to bring good things." What is being described is God DOING evil to bring good things.

If all is predestined, as you insist, then Satan is no more culpable for his "sins" than we are. If God predestined it all. If He, as you put it in your analogy, wrote the script, and then in His infinite power made that script play out, then you, me, and the devil are all just pawns in His fantasy. Adam, then was right in his accusation that it was, in fact, God, that brought about his calamity into sin, as He is the one who predestined it.

But that simply isn't what the Bible teaches, so of course I reject that version of God. I believe in the Bible's version.

 

[cubinity]

As explained. The things that are for us sin are not sin for God because he knows everything and is actually doing a good work. We, on the other hand are evil and do the deeds that God predestined for us with evil intent and wicked glee.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

1 Peter 2:8 ESV
8 and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.


Acts 4:27-28 ESV
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Genesis 50:18-21 ESV
18 His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.” 19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. 21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

I'm not arguing that making a calamity is a sin, so your Isaiah quote falls flat and out of context.

1 Peter 2:10 closes a contrast that is easy to miss when you read verse 8 alone. It reads, "Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." Thus, the author closes his contrast by essentially saying that like them, you too were once destined to disobey, but your destiny has been changed.

Acts 4:29 ges on to say, "Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” Does this sound like the comments of a person that really believes God is going to do whatever He has already planned to do, regardless of any influence? It doesn't to me.

Genesis 50 is the close of a long story that begins with a boy getting thrown in a well, and from that event being carried by God out of his hometown and to the throne of Egypt. While, sure, you can universalize the concept there as thus saying that everything man does evil is really just God doing it, but I don't reasonably get that application from the entirety of the story, so I guess we're just going to have to disagree on that one.

Interest note on your philosophy, though, is that you have God performing every act of genocide, every terrorist attack, and every atheistic Communist take-over, along with every atrocity from every Empire, including Nero's slaughtering of Christians. That is certainly an interesting way to perceive the God that the Bible calls LOVE.

But, hey, He's God, so it isn't really evil because it Him, right?

The next time I see something atrocious on the news, I'll take it to my congregation and say, "It's all good folks. It was just our loving God up to His loving antics again. I'm actually kind of glad those people died, because it is just one more way God shows His infinite love for us!" Think that will go over well? I don't.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I'm not arguing that making a calamity is a sin, so your Isaiah quote falls flat and out of context.

The KJV actually says "create evil"

1 Peter 2:10 closes a contrast that is easy to miss when you read verse 8 alone. It reads, "Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." Thus, the author closes his contrast by essentially saying that like them, you too were once destined to disobey, but your destiny has been changed.

The passage illustrates that some people are destined to sin.

Acts 4:29 ges on to say, "Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” Does this sound like the comments of a person that really believes God is going to do whatever He has already planned to do, regardless of any influence? It doesn't to me.

Acts illustrates that the sins of people are preordained by God for a purpose. Even the most wicked ones like killing Christ.

Genesis 50 is the close of a long story that begins with a boy getting thrown in a well, and from that event being carried by God out of his hometown and to the throne of Egypt. While, sure, you can universalize the concept there as thus saying that everything man does evil is really just God doing it, but I don't reasonably get that application from the entirety of the story, so I guess we're just going to have to disagree on that one.

Joseph illustrates that God was at work in the evil actions of his brothers. It's very cut and dry.

Interest note on your philosophy, though, is that you have God performing every act of genocide, every terrorist attack, and every atheistic Communist take-over, along with every atrocity from every Empire, including Nero's slaughtering of Christians. That is certainly an interesting way to perceive the God that the Bible calls LOVE.

But, hey, He's God, so it isn't really evil because it Him, right?

The next time I see something atrocious on the news, I'll take it to my congregation and say, "It's all good folks. It was just our loving God up to His loving antics again. I'm actually kind of glad those people died, because it is just one more way God shows His infinite love for us!" Think that will go over well? I don't.

God doesn't love everyone. He actually hates some people. Everything works for the benefit only for God's people. Reprobates receive wrath. God's elect receive love. All of it is good though. It is good that the reprobate goes to hell and it is good that God's elect goes to heaven. Because that is God's plan.

Romans 8:28-30 ESV
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[histruth]

I'm just gonna say this one last thing. It is utterly pointless to pray for anyone if your a calvinist. If God has already chosen who is in and who is out, than there is no point in asking Him to save anyone. There is no point in preaching the gospel. There is no point in responding at all to His call. I also ask this question, when you got saved, did you even say anything? I know I did. Did you RESPOND at all to the Holy Spirirt? I know I did. I responded by confessing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS. I then ASKED Him to help me to follow Him from that point on. I RESPONDED to God. Yes. He drew me, but I responded. There are many, many people who feel the draw of the Holy Spirit, and DO NOT RESPOND. But, this whole debate is causing more damage than good, so I'll just leave you with this last question. Why did Jesus give the woman called Jezebel space to REPENT, and then He says, "she would not" Revelation 2:20-21 And a statement, God did love all the nations of the Old Testament. But, they, like the people of Noah's flood, rejected Him. It makes it crystal clear in the 1st chapter of Romans that God had revealed Himself to them, but, they did not like to retain the knowledge of God in their mind, but would much rather worship idols made by their own hands. So, God handed them over to a reprobate mind. You see how God does things for a reason? And, how He indeed, gives EVERYONE a chance to repent and come to Him through His Son Jesus Christ. You also agreed that God does in fact command all men to repent Acts 17:30 but then you try to make God seem insane by saying that although He commands them to repent, He stops them before they can. God is not insane, and that is not His purpose, nor does it bring Him any glory whatsoever. I hold firm to the Truth of God's devine plan to save ALL WHO WILL put their trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. I will continue to tell the world that Jesus loves them. I will not shut up the kingdom of God from anyone. I love you all, but, I believe with all my heart that you are seriously twisting God's Word.

 

[cubinity]

The KJV actually says "create evil"

Good for the KJV. That doesn't mean that is what the passage said.

The passage illustrates that some people are destined to sin.

No, it illustrates that ALL people were destined to sin.

Acts illustrates that the sins of people are preordained by God for a purpose. Even the most wicked ones like killing Christ.

Acts illustrates that the purpose was preordained, not the sins themselves.

Joseph illustrates that God was at work in the evil actions of his brothers. It's very cut and dry.

I don't deny that God was at work in turning these sins into something good, but that still doesn't make God the culprit.

God doesn't love everyone. He actually hates some people. Everything works for the benefit only for God's people. Reprobates receive wrath. God's elect receive love. All of it is good though. It is good that the reprobate goes to hell and it is good that God's elect goes to heaven. Because that is God's plan.

Book chapter and verse for, "God doesn't love everyone." Please.

Romans 8:28-30 ESV
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Yes, this passage does say this. I'm not denying the content of Scripture. What I am arguing is the meaning being applied to it.

Read again Romans 8 in its entirety. The entire chapter is about encouraging us to stick with our obligation, as Paul writes when he say, "Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Again, we are obligated because what we choose to do has an impact on our fate.

 

[Skala]

So...
What I'm getting from all this is that before I even existed, God had chosen me, personally, to inherit eternal life.
There is nothing I have done or will do that can change that.
Nothing I do, ethically or unethically, will have any ramifications on my salvation, in the least.
I'm not implying anything with this. I am genuinely asking. Is that what is being said here?

First:

Are you actually complaining about being eternally saved from God's wrath in the pit of hell?

Second:

It seems you may be viewing this fatalisticlly. By fatalism I mean the idea that the ends is accomplished with no reference to the means.

What I mean is, you seem to think that predestination means that some people are saved regardless of whether or not they come to faith in Christ via the gospel message.

That's not what it means.

So in a sense, it is not true that "nothing you do will affect your salvation". If one never comes to faith in Christ, he is not saved.

What predestination teaches is that God has an ends, but he uses means to accomplish that ends. We read in many verses, such as Acts 13:48, that sinners believe because they are appointed to eternal life.

So you see, they do believe. They believe willingly and freely. But the reason for it is because of God's predestination grace. No where does the Bible say that people are just saved regardless of what they do during their life.

Predestination by itself saves nobody - rather, it marks people out who will respond positively to the gospel.

Ends, and the means to the end. Through evangelism God visits sinners with his grace and changes our hearts, removes our blindfolds, and effectually brings us to Christ.

In short, we are unwilling by fallen nature, due to corruption of sin, but by God's grace we become willing.

"I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, and cause you to obey my statutes".

"Your people will be willing in the day of your power"

"He caused us to be born again.."

"It is God's doing that you are in Christ Jesus".

Surely these Bible verses are popping up in your mind

 

[Skala]

Yes, it would be. Instead, from what I can tell in scripture, you are predestined because you have faith, not the other way around.

Can you please show us where in the Bible someone made such an argument?

No where have I seen that faith is credited as the base for God's choice of us. But rather "God's own purpose" is credited for His action of choosing.

Even clearer is Acts 13:48 which states that we believe on account of being appointed to eternal life, not vice versa.

And again, in John 10 we learn that the reason people believe is because they are Christ's sheep. They don't become sheep by believing.

Here's the verses:

Eph 1:4-5
(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
(5) he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--
Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me,
Joh 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

So, thats at least 4 areas in the Bible that say the exact opposite of your assertion, dies.

I'm curious how you 1) explain these verses and 2) where you find in the Bible that God chooses us based on our faith.

Thanks for your time.

 

[cubinity]

First:

Are you actually complaining about being eternally saved from God's wrath in the pit of hell?

First, no I'm not, since if I'm predestined to be saved, hell was never a possibility, and thus I have not been saved from anything.

Second:

It seems you may be viewing this fatalisticlly. By fatalism I mean the idea that the ends is accomplished with no reference to the means.

What I mean is, you seem to think that predestination means that some people are saved regardless of whether or not they come to faith in Christ via the gospel message.

That's not what it means.

So in a sense, it is not true that "nothing you do will affect your salvation". If one never comes to faith in Christ, he is not saved.

What predestination teaches is that God has an ends, but he uses means to accomplish that ends. We read in many verses, such as Acts 13:48, that sinners believe because they are appointed to eternal life.

So you see, they do believe. They believe willingly and freely. But the reason for it is because of God's predestination grace. No where does the Bible say that people are just saved regardless of what they do during their life.

Predestination by itself saves nobody - rather, it marks people out who will respond positively to the gospel.

Ends, and the means to the end. Through evangelism God visits sinners with his grace and changes our hearts, removes our blindfolds, and effectually brings us to Christ.

In short, we are unwilling by fallen nature, due to corruption of sin, but by God's grace we become willing.

"I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, and cause you to obey my statutes".

"Your people will be willing in the day of your power"

"He caused us to be born again.."

"It is God's doing that you are in Christ Jesus".

Surely these Bible verses are popping up in your mind

"So you see, they do believe. They believe willingly and freely. But the reason for it is because of God's predestination grace. No where does the Bible say that people are just saved regardless of what they do during their life." If they believe freely, then they have free will, and you are rooting for the wrong argument. Sorry.

 

[Skala]

I'm just gonna say this one last thing. It is utterly pointless to pray for anyone if your a calvinist. If God has already chosen who is in and who is out, than there is no point in asking Him to save anyone. There is no point in preaching the gospel.

On the contrary, I think you will find that your argument backfires against you. It is pointless for the person who denies election to pray for salvation, not the person that believes in it.

If God cannot do anything to save someone, and their salvation is ultimately up to their own will, why are you praying to God to save that person? What can God do? He is helpless. The person's will has all the power in his hands. God cannot save him without his permission. So why are you praying to God to do something as if he will actually do something that results in salvation?

However, if you believe that men's salvation is ultimately up to God, then you realize we as men are helpless, thats' why we turn to God - the only one that can actually do anything about it.

Each Christian knows that only God can give the increase where the seed was planted. And only God can convert. Onyl God can remove the blindfold, only God can change the heart.

If you deny that God actually does any of these things, but salvation is ultimately up to the mans' will (not God's converting grace), then you are being inconsistent when you pray to God for the salvation of sinners. In your view, God cannot do anything to affect anything.

So you see how your argument backfires against you


See this excellent article for more info

The Sovereignty of God and Prayer by John Piper

There is no point in responding at all to His call. I also ask this question, when you got saved, did you even say anything? I know I did. Did you RESPOND at all to the Holy Spirirt? I know I did. I responded by confessing Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, and ASKING FOR FORGIVENESS. I then ASKED Him to help me to follow Him from that point on. I RESPONDED to God.

Um, the doctrine of election doesn't assert that nobody responds to the call. So not sure what good your argument here does to bolster an attack against it.

Yes. He drew me, but I responded.

You responded because he appointed you to eternal life, and because He gave you to the Son:

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[Skala]

First, no I'm not, since if I'm predestined to be saved, hell was never a possibility, and thus I have not been saved from anything.



"So you see, they do believe. They believe willingly and freely. But the reason for it is because of God's predestination grace. No where does the Bible say that people are just saved regardless of what they do during their life." If they believe freely, then they have free will, and you are rooting for the wrong argument. Sorry.

Um, what?

Your conclusion is a non sequitur of sorts. How does your conclusion follow from your premise?

Are you telling me that Acts 13:48 contains a contradiction within itself since it teaches:

1) Men believe
2) They believe because they were appointed to eternal life

It seems to me that you are putting this issue in a box and not allowing both to be true. But such a "rule" is of your own invention and you are trying to impose it on our discussion.

If men believe because they are appointed to eternal life, how does it follow that their belief, since is freely and willingly done, suddenly undo the other half of the verse that teaches the reason for their belief?

Are you saying Acts 13:48 is in error? Or John 6:37 for that matter?

 

[GrayAngel]

But the God you are describing in this post is not consistent with the God you seem to be describing in your other arguments.

It is not, as you say, a God that "uses evil to bring good things." What is being described is God DOING evil to bring good things.

If all is predestined, as you insist, then Satan is no more culpable for his "sins" than we are. If God predestined it all. If He, as you put it in your analogy, wrote the script, and then in His infinite power made that script play out, then you, me, and the devil are all just pawns in His fantasy. Adam, then was right in his accusation that it was, in fact, God, that brought about his calamity into sin, as He is the one who predestined it.

But that simply isn't what the Bible teaches, so of course I reject that version of God. I believe in the Bible's version.

Time and time again, I prove my views with scripture, and you counter with your own logic. Then you claim that my views are not Biblical.

Have you read Job? Look at it. It describes exactly what I'm talking about:

Satan comes to God saying that he had roamed the whole earth, and he could not find anyone left to corrupt. And how does God respond? Does He say, "Get away from me, Satan! I want nothing to do with you!"? Nope. Instead, He says, "Have you considered Job?"

God had just given Satan his new target. Then Satan said, "I bet if I do this to him, he'll curse you!" But God replied, "Go ahead and do it. But I know he won't curse me."

Are you following? Has my account of this story been inaccurate in any way?

Here we see that God was using Satan. Satan's goal was to destroy Job's faith and prove God wrong. But God's intention was not for evil.

Again, we see God using evil people for His plans in the book of Exodus. When the Israelites were enslaved to Egypt, God sent Moses to the pharaoh.

"Let my people go!" Moses demands.

But God hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and so he said no.

Moses then strikes a plague on Egypt, and he again returns to the pharaoh. "Let my people go!"

Again, God hardened his heart so that he could only give one response. "No."

Over and over again, this repeats, until finally, Moses delivers the final plague, and the pharaoh lets the Israelites go. But what happens almost immediately after? Yet again, God hardened the heart of the pharaoh, and the Egyptians chased after the Israelites, and get swallowed up by the sea.

Exodus 10:1-2 - Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD.”

God had control over the pharaoh. When God hardened his heart, the pharaoh responded accordingly. Then, when God allowed it, he finally let the Israelites go free. But again, God hardened the pharaoh's heart. And why did He do that?

Exodus 14:8 - The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.

Joshua 11:20 - For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Now tell me again how my view of God is not Biblical...?

 

[cubinity]

Um, what?

Your conclusion is a non sequitur of sorts. How does your conclusion follow from your premise?

Are you telling me that Acts 13:48 contains a contradiction within itself since it teaches:

1) Men believe
2) They believe because they were appointed to eternal life

It seems to me that you are putting this issue in a box and not allowing both to be true. But such a "rule" is of your own invention and you are trying to impose it on our discussion.

If men believe because they are appointed to eternal life, how does it follow that their belief, since is freely and willingly done, suddenly undo the other half of the verse that teaches the reason for their belief?

Are you saying Acts 13:48 is in error? Or John 6:37 for that matter?

I'm saying predestiners need to get their causation vs correlation sorted out.

 

[Skala]

I'm saying predestiners need to get their causation vs correlation sorted out.

Can you offer anything other than assertions? Perhaps you can explain Acts 13:48 to us? Or Eph 1:4-11? Or Romans 8:30? Or 2 Thess 2:13?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Book chapter and verse for, "God doesn't love everyone." Please.

Romans 9:11-23 ESV
11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

‪Does God Love Everyone?‬‏ - YouTube

 

[Skala]

Err, I don't remember anyone asserting that God doesn't love everyone.

I mean, the Bible says He gives rain to both the just and the unjust. And it's obvious he gives gifts like life, material thigns, family, and health to everyone, even the air we breath is a gift from God.

But the thing is: The bible most assuredly doesn't teach that God has an equal love for everyone.

It is painfully clear that he has a special love, that differs from the love he has for other people, for his own chosen people, Christians, the church.

This same pattern is seen in the OT: he loved Israel alone in a special way, showered them with blessings and promises, and didnt' do any such thing for all the pagan nations.

You'd have to be ignorant of OT history to make the claim that God loved Israel equally or in the same way as he demonstrated love to the Egyptians for example whom God destroyed. Or Pharaoh whom God hardened on purpose to make an example out of him.

Anyways, Eph 5:25 describes Christ's love for his church, the bride, like a husbands love for his wife.

A husband doesn't have equal love for all the women in the world. He loves his wife in a special way. Otherwise the imperative for husbands to love his wife like Christ loves the church makes no sense and simply means "love your wife in the same way you love all the women in the world"

Would anyone argue such a thing? Why, then, do they argue that God's love is the same way?

Further, do you live on planet earth? God is who controls where, when, and how a person is born into this world. Sometimes people are born into America into Christian homes, and have comfortable wealth and plenty to eat. Other people are born into poverty, in remote areas of the world, with no money, no food, and no access to the gospel.

Do you think this happens on accident? Do you think this is outside of God's control? Do you think God is just super bummed that human history isn't going so well, or that he's helpless to intervene?

Or rather, do you acknowledge that God is dread sovereign and directs things as He wishes, for His own glory? He is perfect in his distribution. Even people in poverty get more than they deserve, since all humans deserve immediately death and eternal hell, for sin.