What do you believe in?

[Osage Bluestem]

Sounds like an absurd case of my condemning you to hell is not as bad as you simply not liking me. Something about that seems terribly skewed. But, maybe that's just me...

We don't know who is going to hell. But historically it has been proven that many of that type you mentioned have been really evil. Nazi Germany, Ku Klux Klan...generally mean. Very active in the church though.

 

[cubinity]

Faith is still a factor, but it's the result, not the cause, of predestination. Those who were predestined were preordained to come into faith. But God did not look into the future, see who would have faith, and then predestine them.

So, if I'm predestined, I have faith. If I'm not I don't.
Then what good is the instruction to have faith?
Is it not a waste of breath?

 

[cubinity]

We don't know who is going to hell. But historically it has been proven that many of that type you mentioned have been really evil. Nazi Germany, Ku Klux Klan...generally mean. Very active in the church though.

I'm pretty sure the pompous [bless and do not curse] giving me the dirty look isn't a Nazi or klansman. I think she is just judgy.

 

[dies-l]

So, if I'm predestined, I have faith. If I'm not I don't.
Then what good is the instruction to have faith?
Is it not a waste of breath?

Yes, it would be. Instead, from what I can tell in scripture, you are predestined because you have faith, not the other way around.

 

[cubinity]

Yes, it would be. Instead, from what I can tell in scripture, you are predestined because you have faith, not the other way around.

The other way around would be that I have faith because I am predestined, which is what is being taught here.
You are saying they are wrong?

 

[GrayAngel]

So, if I'm predestined, I have faith. If I'm not I don't.
Then what good is the instruction to have faith?
Is it not a waste of breath?

Whether or not someone we witness to has been predestined is not for us to know. God often uses us to bring the elect into the repentance He had planned for them.

 

[cubinity]

Whether or not someone we witness to has been predestined is not for us to know. God often uses us to bring the elect into the repentance He had planned for them.

Witness what?
I didn't say anything about witnessing.
I asked about the instruction to have faith.
If you are going to tell someone to do something, it is because they can choose to, no?
So, why instruct someone to have something they will either have or they won't.
Is it not a waste of breath?

 

[GrayAngel]

Witness what?
I didn't say anything about witnessing.
I asked about the instruction to have faith.
If you are going to tell someone to do something, it is because they can choose to, no?
So, why instruct someone to have something they will either have or they won't.
Is it not a waste of breath?

Instructing someone to have faith may be the method God uses to begin them in the faith. Those who were not predestined will go away unchanged. This is often what happened when Jesus was on His ministry. Even after all His miracles and all of His teachings, some could not believe because God had hardened their hearts. However, some did believe right then and there. They were God's elect.

It's not a waste of breath. We don't know the future. If we choose not to try to bring someone into the faith, we only ensure that that person would not be saved through our actions.

 

[cubinity]

Instructing someone to have faith may be the method God uses to begin them in the faith. Those who were not predestined will go away unchanged. This is often what happened when Jesus was on His ministry. Even after all His miracles and all of His teachings, some could not believe because God had hardened their hearts. However, some did believe right then and there. They were God's elect.

It's not a waste of breath. We don't know the future. If we choose not to try to bring someone into the faith, we only ensure that that person would not be saved through our actions.

Someone is saved through our actions?
I thought they were predestined.

 

[GrayAngel]

Someone is saved through our actions?
I thought they were predestined.

Predestination is applied through the actions of God's people. Even the unsaved often play as unwilling players in His plan. But for a person to be saved, it's not enough that God plans their salvation. He works to make it happen.

To bring an elect into salvation, He will act through us. We plant the seed, as God instructs, then another may water it. But, then comes the impossible part, which only God can manage. He makes the seed grow, giving them the faith He planned for them to have.

 

[cubinity]

Predestination is applied through the actions of God's people. Even the unsaved often play as unwilling players in His plan. But for a person to be saved, it's not enough that God plans their salvation. He works to make it happen.

To bring an elect into salvation, He will act through us. We plant the seed, as God instructs, then another may water it. But, then comes the impossible part, which only God can manage. He makes the seed grow, giving them the faith He planned for them to have.

And if we don't work, He'll do it anyway, right?
And if there is no seed, and no water, there is still destiny, right?
And even if there is no faith, there is destiny, right?
So, what's the point of the rest of it?
What is the point of Christianity if God has already--not planned--predestined us to be what we are?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

So, if I'm predestined, I have faith. If I'm not I don't.
Then what good is the instruction to have faith?
Is it not a waste of breath?

By that logic everything is a waste of time since God already knows how it will end.

As far as we're concerned we just do what we want to do and it plays out the way God wanted it.

 

[cubinity]

By that logic everything is a waste of time since God already knows how it will end.

As far as we're concerned we just do what we want to do and it plays out the way God wanted it.

Exactly...

 

[cubinity]

If you can't remove works from faith, and you can't remove faith from salvation, then you can't remove works from salvation. Thus you must be either misunderstanding predestination, or misapplying your responsibility.

 

[GrayAngel]

And if we don't work, He'll do it anyway, right?
And if there is no seed, and no water, there is still destiny, right?
And even if there is no faith, there is destiny, right?
So, what's the point of the rest of it?
What is the point of Christianity if God has already--not planned--predestined us to be what we are?

You don't write a play and then skip to the ending. Why would God want to the same?

God chooses to use us, and it's a privilege to be able to do His work.

And as someone said earlier, we're not robots. He wrote a plan for our lives so we could live it.

By that logic everything is a waste of time since God already knows how it will end.

As far as we're concerned we just do what we want to do and it plays out the way God wanted it.

Exactly.

I imagine it must be pretty frustrating for Satan. No matter what he does, it was in God's plan to begin with. If he does nothing, God planned it. If he tries to destroy God's kingdom, God planned it. He can't win.

 

[cubinity]

You don't write a play and then skip to the ending. Why would God want to the same?

God chooses to use us, and it's a privilege to be able to do His work.

And as someone said earlier, we're not robots. He wrote a plan for our lives so we could live it.

Except that a script for said play is just a plan, not destiny, and it is the creative ways the actors subtly deviate from the script that actually makes the characters in the play come to life. So, you are essentially comparing apples to oranges with that.

Exactly.

I imagine it must be pretty frustrating for Satan. No matter what he does, it was in God's plan to begin with. If he does nothing, God planned it. If he tries to destroy God's kingdom, God planned it. He can't win.

It is not only frustrating, but unnecessary. Without the consequences of duality, duality is rendered obsolete. Thus, that part of the play has no dramatic significance, and is thus an utter waste of breathe as well.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

If you can't remove works from faith, and you can't remove faith from salvation, then you can't remove works from salvation. Thus you must be either misunderstanding predestination, or misapplying your responsibility.

Our works are predestined and we have no merit from them. They are actually works of God. Our sins are also works of God. However, we are culpable because we did them with evil intent without knowledge of their end. God does them because he knows the end and knows it is good, so he isn't guilty of evil. He knows it is better that way than if all the terrible things he does never happened. But really in the end all of us serve the purpose God created us for and we cannot change it. We do what we were made to do.

That's what I believe in a nutshell.

 

[cubinity]

Our works are predestined and we have no merit from them. They are actually works of God. Our sins are also works of God. However, we are culpable because we did them with evil intent without knowledge of their end. God does them because he knows the end and knows it is good, so he isn't guilty of evil. He knows it is better that way than if all the terrible things he does never happened. But really in the end all of us serve the purpose God created us for and we cannot change it. We do what we were made to do.

That's what I believe in a nutshell.

Have any verses that back up that God sins, but just isn't culpable for it?
Book, chapter and verse, please.

 

[cubinity]

You don't write a play and then skip to the ending. Why would God want to the same?

Have you ever acted in a play?
Ever watched one more than once?
Ever seen the exact same one again, but with a different cast? Director? Sets?

If you are saying that is what God has prepared, then what you are describing cannot be predestination, since no two performances of a play are ever identical, even though the script never changes. Ever wondered why that is?

 

[GrayAngel]

I think you misunderstood him. God doesn't sin. That's what He has Satan for: to keep His hands clean. Remember the story of Job? Satan answered to God in that story, and could never deviate from His will. Satan's intention was to harm Job, and to prove to God that He was wrong, but God's plans for Job were for his benefit.