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I've asked you a couple of direct questions which you haven't answered.Have you ever been to jail? I assure you, sitting in a jail cell is torture, more then a person who has not can comprehend.
How could they know it was wrong to disobey God when knowledge of good and evil was withheld from them?
I've asked you a couple of direct questions which you haven't answered.
Yes it appears they had a different interpretation. The serpent entity told Eve what was meant by what God said, she examined everything (it outlines it) and made a choice. Adam then went along and made his choice as well. I don't see where it says how Adam reasoned his choice, only that he ate along with Eve. Once their "eyes were opened," then they saw they were naked and so they hid. It doesn't say they were scared because of their choice and disobedience, it says they were scared because they saw they were naked. That may be your opinion.
Its doubtful the apple had magical properties. It was symbolism that if they did take it, they would disobey inviting sin into their lives.
The Bible never says "apple." I thought you cared about what was black-and-white in the text of the Bible? It doesn't say that their consumption from the tree was symbolic either. What happened to black-and-white?
I'm thinking you may not be aware of the fallacies you are using: straw men, ad hom, circular reasoning, red herrings, argument from ignorance, the way burden of proof works, etc and so forth. I'm not trying to be petty ... and it's not about winning an argument or a debate. It's about the way some people question things and come to conclusions and reason: critical thinking. You are hitting upon the critical thinking of others.How can you ask questions with a comparison you do not understand? Use a comparison that you know something about, clearly prison time is not one of them.
You should read their dialogue.
I'm thinking you may not be aware of the fallacies you are using: straw men, ad hom, circular reasoning, red herrings, argument from ignorance, the way burden of proof works, etc and so forth. I'm not trying to be petty ... and it's not about winning an argument or a debate. It's about the way some people question things and come to conclusions and reason: critical thinking. You are hitting upon the critical thinking of others.
Whether I've spent time in prison or not, has nothing to do with answering the questions I posed of you. Whether you spent time in prison or not has nothing to do with it, as I didn't ask if you had spent time in prison. My comment was actually superfluous to the question, I included it to elucidate a difference so that when you responded, you could better illustrate what "punishment" may mean to you in more detail. Again, this isn't being petty ... some of us are actually asking questions we want to understand both YOUR answers to, and THE answers to.
Out of fairness, I think pursuing a path that tries to corner you into claiming in what ways you may or may not be okay with harming your own children ... I think that is cruel. So I'll stop that line of questioning. I don't think that's fair to do to you, or your children. They are not pawns in an argument about torture and eternal suffering. I would not wish such a thing upon them, or you, or anyone for that matter.
Like I said, out of fairness, I'll cease.Its fine, my children are actually pretty well versed on the bible. My six year old is a little preacher. The point I'm trying to illustrate is that I understand the sense of justice. My life has been quite miserable before accepting Christ. Only after realizing how undeserving you are of an eternity with a perfect good God can you truly follow. Its hard for someone who has lived a wholesome life to ever think they need anything. This is illustrated by what Christ said. I've always said Christianity is a poor mans faith, the rich hold too closely to what they have I'm this world.
Like I said, out of fairness, I'll cease.
I don't think you see the point I was going to make. Tell me what you think it is and I'll tell you whether or not you are correct. Whether you're correct or not, we can go from there.I see the point you're trying to illustrate and it doesn't work quite as well as you think.
Just like you are.Many Christians are hypocrites, they have indeed made God a character in the sky and use Him like a genie in a bottle.
Just like you are.
You are taking concepts known from "our world"... and extrapolate them into something "beyond"... but in doing so, you ignore that these concepts only have meaning because they are part of our world.
In doing that, you involuntarily introduce the assumption that this "beyond" is, on a very basic level, just like the world we know.
But if this world has to have an explanation like yours... this "beyond world" needs to have a similar explanation.
The bible
Where have I said that I am fine with that?I've come to the point where I realize that people who refute God are victims of their own misunderstanding. You will constantly reach the conclusion that you don't know and you're fine with that.
Why would I find comfort in that?You're finding comfort that you don't know and God doesn't exist.
Where do do you get off telling me what I think?Finding comfort that there are no universal consequences to your actions, it's the same comfort that you think Christians find in knowing there is a life after.
I don't believe in gods because the evidence for their existing is not convincing, and belief is not a conscious choice.I don't believe in God to not go to hell, I believe in God because He is the definition of good and just.
The argument from consequences is a fallacy.If God didn't exist it would absolutely make life here and now much easier, we wouldn't be accountable for anything we do. We could do anything we wanted, sure we'd have to face consequences that man as made, but on a universal level it doesn't really matter at all.
Describe one action that would preclude entry into this hypothetical "Heaven" that Christians talk about. Genocide? Murder? Rape? Or, does anything go as long as you believe?If I were to go to each one of your houses and steal everything you owned and beat you, you would surely say that was wrong. But on a cosmic level, on your own understanding of the universe, it's not wrong. So you would be a hypocrite to impose any sense of right and wrong and you should look at my actions as just that, actions. The very existence of God is proven by your own sense of justice.
Who is this "we" that you speak for?I think we have all intelligently come to the conclusion that there may be a God,
Or, from an evolutionary perspective, we should expect social behaviours to develop in animals (us) that benefit from living socially.but who knows, we were not there to witness it. There is also a high probability that if there is a God, there is a strong chance that He would reveal Himself to His creation, thus our sense of right and wrong.
What other options? Pixies? extraterrestrial aliens?God should merit the same amount of research and thinking as any other option, I'm just afraid that many of you brush off that idea too quickly.
I would say that it is the dearth of evidence for the existence of gods, outside of stories in books.Is it because of the Christian community?
Is not prayer capable of moving mountains?Many Christians are hypocrites, they have indeed made God a character in the sky and use Him like a genie in a bottle.
You have yet to give me cause for concern.The reason it all makes perfect sense to me is in the Christian doctrine. It tells us to give up everything we own and spread the word of God. The concept of social security, life insurance, medical insurance, houses, cars, is very contradictory to what being a Christian is all about. We are called to treat life as a mission field and that's it. If life here is a short window compared to what the bible tells us, we cannot hope to receive any sort of eternal salvation if we do not treat this life as temporary and shun any worldy possessions. It saddens me, I feel that if Christians would read their own doctrine and live it, many people would more readily see God's will and characteristics.
The deadliest enemy to the word of God are the billions of Christians world wide who have absolutely no idea what they are reading. They themselves have turned God into a puppet and have made it very difficult for anyone with intelligence, reasoning, and common sense to believe in Him. I think this affects your outlook of Christianity, a rich Christian is hypocritical and will change the viewpoint of those who are seeking the truth.
If you were sick and needed immediate care you would go to the hospital, if you went to a certain hospital and there are hundreds of people who are sick, vomiting, and dying in front of that hospital you would seek another one. The problem is not with the hospital it is with the people who are out front refusing to actually go in and receive treatment.
I had a very real realization this morning and it really bothered me. I think people know that I can get really aggressive with people here on these forums, that is not my intention. My realization was this, many of the people I am talking to are on a very dangerous path, they are quite literally playing with fire.
Believe, or burn. As belief is not a conscious choice, you think it just that I be held accountable for something beyond my control?I do not want anyone to believe in God or even consider it out of danger of hell, but it doesn't change the fact that many of the people I talk to are going there. The reasoning behind this is that God is perfectly just, and just as a judge who punishes a criminal, God's very nature demands justice.
Wiki does say that "Truth is most often used to mean being in accord with fact or reality". You do have a problem there.You guys are awesome, intelligent, free thinkers who have more of God's attributes in your worldy view then most Christians. I just want you guys to know the truth, and yes, I know, this truth in your view is not truth at all,
And I have a dragon in my garage that I would love for you to see.but it still doesn't change the fact that I would give anything I have here on earth just for you to see it.
Everything in the bible is "a worldy explanation".Where did I once put worldy explanations on anything? Everything I have said I can quote out of the bible.
Still with the veiled insults, I see.Its more of the same dichotomy, spoiled children
Parents exist.rebelling against the authority of their parents,
Answers that you, of course, are more than capable of receiving.demanding all the answers when they aren't even equipped yet conceptually to receive them.
That your arguments fall flat is not the fault of others.Congratulating themselves when their clever sounding mental gymnastics produce no satisfactory answers, using this as reassuring proofs that the parents were misleading them all along.
Trust is earned.It all still comes down to trust.
What are these facts that you allude to?I disagree completely, science often goes further than proofs of free inquiry, it makes theories facts. The "Big Bang" origin of the universe is a prime example. They see the presence of red shift and an apparently expanding universe and make final conclusions without all the facts in. Science can be just as dogmatic as religion.
What do you believe to be the source of the universe and why? If you respond that you do not know, please provide an intelligent reason as to why you do not know.
Thank you.
What do you believe to be the source of the universe and why? If you respond that you do not know, please provide an intelligent reason as to why you do not know.
Thank you.
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