What do ppl think Mormons are a cult?

it is a heresy.

I heard this from a Church planter in Utah abou the Mormon beliefs:

"As man is, God once was.
As God is, so man may become."

I may post more, depending on the time.....good stuff's been covered already.

Arguably the most famous LDS statement regarding exaltation is a couplet written by Lorenzo Snow: “As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be.” This quote states the Mormon understanding of the basic pattern of life: Heavenly Father, who was once a mortal man, gradually rose to perfection (exaltation); Latter-day Saints can, through their proper actions, hope to do the same. Joseph Smith stated in his funeral address for King Follett, “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens.”

In a more detailed explanation of exaltation, Bruce R. McConkie writes that faithful Latter-day Saints, by following the same path of exaltation as Heavenly Father, can achieve a similar position - they have eternal increase, a continuation of the seeds forever and ever, a continuation of the lives, eternal lives; that is, they have spirit children in the resurrection, in relation to which offspring they stand in the same position that God our Father stands to us. They inherit in due course the fulness of the glory of the Father, meaning that they have all power in heaven and on earth.(D. & C. 76:50-60; 93:1-40.) ‘Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them’ (D. & C. 132:16-26; Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, pp. 35-79).

This rise to godhood - which is restricted to males - is contingent upon the LDS faithfully following the ordinances of the LDS Church, and particularly to being married (i.e., sealed for time and eternity) in an LDS temple.

The LDS doctrine of exaltation, at least as it is explained in apologetic and evangelistic writings, is frequently defined in opposition to the understanding of “gods” as figurative or ironic. Stephen E. Robinson explains the significance of this understanding vis-à-vis the traditional Christian understanding:

Whether in this life or the next, through Christ human beings can be given the powers of God and the authority of God. Those who receive this great inheritance can properly be called gods…Orthodox [i.e., mainstream Christian] theologians may argue that Latter-day Saints shouldn’t use the term gods for nonultimate beings, but this is because the Latter-day Saints’ use of the term violates Platonic rather than biblical definitions.

In other words, Latter-day Saints believe that the Christian objection to the LDS belief that humans can become gods in the fullest sense of the word (i.e., becoming creators and deities of their own worlds) is simply an objection to a philosophical contamination of the gospel, rather than an objection raised on a biblical basis.

Barry Robert Bickmore advances a similar argument when discussing the Evangelical Protestant approach to patristic statements about theosis. While Bickmore accuses the Church of altering its Christology during the third-sixth centuries, he also states regarding these early Christians:

It was decided that Jesus not only was God, i.e. the divine substance, but he also had a complete humanity, both a body and a soul, in addition to his divinity. They believed that Christ’s human body and soul later became deified, although they were truly human to start. Therefore, they believed that men could be deified in the same way that Jesus’ human body and soul were deified! Once again, this is not exactly the LDS doctrine of deification, but it sure as anything isn’t the mainstream Christian doctrine that we will become nothing more than angels!

There are, of course, numerous errors in Bickmore’s statement: the Church has never taught that Christ is the Divine substance, but instead that He is a Person who is “of one substance with the Father;” only some individuals on the fringes of the early Church taught that Christ became deified (such a statement calls to mind the heresies of gnosticism and adoptionism); and “mainstream Christian doctrine” does not hold that humans will become angels. Nonetheless, Bickmore’s statement is significant because he juxtaposes his understanding of the Church Fathers with modern Evangelicals (specifically James R. White), noting that Evangelicals claim, “The fathers didn’t mean that men could *really* become gods.”

The Evangelical understanding of the word “gods” as being figurative or ironic is partially culpable for the LDS misunderstanding of patristic statements about deification. The Evangelicals who hold to the perspectives presented above maintain that humans cannot be gods in any real sense, and thus these individuals inadvertently misrepresent the patristic witness. LDS scholars reject what they see as an arbitrary limitation placed by Evangelical theology upon human potential; they therefore conversely misinterpret patristic texts because of the Mormon theological emphasis on corporeality, maintaining that men can only be gods if each man is independently divine.

If I understand the Mormons correctly, Jesus was just one of the Children of God. Gods have lots and lots of Children. He doesn't get any special distinctions; in fact, they believe Jesus and Satan to be brothers.

"Why would Satan tell Joseph Smith to set up the true church and have a church that teachs about Christ and not to follow satan"

Because 1. ya'll dont worship christ, mormans believe them become God. 2. Satan is a liar, so ya he will tell people to do that like old joe there.

"Also, Jesus was half-immortal, half mortal"

Not realy..if you're half immortal, that's an oxymoron. You can't be half immortal. You're either mortal or immortal.

"Christ needed to be half-immortal so he could raise himself from the dead otherwise it would impossible for us to be resurrected. "

the bible makes it pretty clear that the Father ressurected christ.

"I would like to know how God and Jesus Chrsit could be the same person. "

Because its in the bible. Trinity. Its much like how water and ice are both H2O.

"I mean, how could God talk to himself if he was on earth as Jesus Christ. "

Christ talked to God the father, not himself. They are of the same essenience, not the same thing. Its like having ice in a glass of water. It is all H2O but they are distinct but are also one.


"Chrsit probably is married, but like God, he doesn't want the world to defame his wife's name. "

:lol: noooooo. Christ was not married at all. Neither is God.

another thing I have a problem with mormanism is that where are these special tablets? hmm?

"I must give Smith some credit. He was pretty crafty in his book. Unfortunately any textual criticism of the book fails him miserably. He did not do well in his first attempt and after numerous revisions (major revision taking place for the current 1981 edition, including the addition of ‘Another Testament of Jesus Christ’ to the cover, and over 100 verses being changed without checking the plates (which no one seems to be able to find)). Look at the closing note of the introduction – ‘Some minor errors in the text have been perpetuated in past editions of the Book of Mormon. This edition contains corrections that seem appropriate to bring the material into conformity with prepublication manuscripts and early editions edited by the prophet Joseph Smith.’ Unfortunately, anyone who actually looks at the original manuscripts will realize that the ‘truth’ of the LDS has been sacrificed for public relations.
Reputable institutions such as Columbia University, NY; Smithsonian Institution, Washington; and even Brigham Young University, UT all claim that the anthropology of the Book of Mormon is just plain wrong. See if you can find former BYU professor Thomas Stuart Ferguson’s paper written in 1975 about the archaeology of the Book of Mormon. After 25 years he gave up looking for evidence. In fact, he called the geography of the Book of Mormon, ‘fictional.’"

Its made clear in the bible that Jesus IS God.

"I don't worship Christ like God because christ worshipped his father and I have been commanded only to worship him"

Yup, that's right, you've been commanded to worship only God, but you're also commanded to worship Jesus, how does this mesh? Easy Jesus is God. Worship=God Worship=Jesus...so Jesus=God.


"Also, show me evidence in the bible where it talks about the trinity. "

There are many long threads in the round table, look for yourself. I would start with Col 2:9

"Actually that just says is that he is in the image of his father. "

Look up the greek of that passage, it says he is God.

"Not that he is the father. "

Nope, John chapter 1 clears that up.

"if God and Jesus are the same person then wouldn't god himself have done the atonement? "

Yes. That's the whole point. Another clue is look at genesis chapter 1. The name of God is PLURAL.

Please correct me if I am wrong but, Mormons believe in Jesus as the son, God as the father and Joseph as the prophet. ALSO, there has been some claim that mary was not a virgin, Do mormons believe this? I also wonder why we are putting baptistism in to this because my ex mother in law was doing geneology for baptistism of the died.. Can you explain this to me? I have often thought about these questions about the latter day saints and want to know from a l.d.s. member what is all this about.I know I am crewing on the meat before the milk but, I am from oklahoma meat sounds good right about now.
Jennifer
http://givenright.com

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

First of all, Jesus and Heavenly Father are two different beings.

Click to expand...

No, you misunderstand the first vision of Joseph Smith. You see, Joseph Smith never proclaimed the first vision, that was introduced to the public thirty years after his death.

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

First of all, Jesus and Heavenly Father are two different beings. Let me ask u all a question. U believe that Jesus that was baptized by John the Baptist right. Well, look at Matthew 3:17, it says"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Now wait, explain how Jesus can be both God and the messiah. Plz explain that.

Click to expand...

Because in the pre-existence to incarnation, Jesus Christ didn't live on Kolob, but was in heaven with the Father as the Word, and became incarnate as Jesus Christ, and on his death and resurrection became the eternal Living Word and ascended to return to heaven to be at the right hand of the Father.

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

One more thing about that. Have u ever fully studied my church or better yet, have u ever gone to one of our church meetings?

Click to expand...

Yes. I am currently studying your denomination. I will attend the ward meeting on Sunday (2 hours, not the full 3) and I am currently going through the gospel principles class.

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

Also, about the Book of Mormon, read Ezekiel 37:16-20, tell me what the stick of Ephraim is? Because the stick of Judah is the bible. One more fact about the book of mormon; in the book of mormon, there is a complex style of Jewish poetry called chiasium, i don't know if I spelled it right, but in the book of mormon, many examples of this poetry have been found and many scholars, most who were not Mormon, have said that the poems are actually chaisiums. About this, the book of mormon was first publsihed in 1830 and chiasium was discovered around 1860, like 30 first years later, so plz tell me how an uneducated farmer could know about a very complex form of Hebrew poetry that hadn't been discovered? Huh, explain that too. Well, I am not trying to sound like a jerk but what is say is true. But plz answer my questions if u can.

Click to expand...

There are no archaeological supports for the book of mormon. I am somewhat of a professional apologist concerning the archaeological supports, or rather, the lack of archaeological supports for the book of mormon. Is there an area that you would like to discuss? I would advise you that Jeff Linsay will provide you with assistance in a discussion if you want his email address, I would be glad to provide it to you... or Darryl Thorpe.... or Sandra Tanner... they are all very helpful concerning information about information concerning the archaeological supports, or lack thereof, to the book of mormon.

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

About this, the book of mormon was first publsihed in 1830 and chiasium was discovered around 1860, like 30 first years later, so plz tell me how an uneducated farmer could know about a very complex form of Hebrew poetry that hadn't been discovered? Huh, explain that too. Well, I am not trying to sound like a jerk but what is say is true. But plz answer my questions if u can.

Click to expand...

Much of the book of mormon is plagariazed.... re: spaulding, KJV of the Bible, Ethan Smith, etc.... I recently read of the visions of Joseph Smith Sr as dictated by Lucy Smith, and I found that quite enlightening.


~malaka~

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

Oh, well have u heard of F.A.R.M.S? There is actually evidence for the book of mormon. U can check up on it. I now know y u think it's false. Probably, becuz when u read it, u told yourself that it wasn't true so u already had it assumed that it wasn't true. So it did u no good. I would also like to ask if u have heard of Gordon B. Hinkley. He the prophet, head of our church, if u meet him, u would realize that he is called of God. Well, what u might think that I am just talking a lot of ****. Oh well, i don't want to seem rude but maybe u should follow your own advice and actually try to see if maybe it is true. Not trying to be mean.

Click to expand...

My friend,

As I posted in another response, there are no archaeological supports for the book of mormon.

Now, should the mormon church locate the Hill Cummorah and the millions of bodies of people who died in battle there, I might be persuaded to be more open-minded.

As it is, there are no archaelogical supports... I am currently in two discussion concerning mormonism... one on "barley" in the Americas (I am awaiting information from Arizona State University and Purdue University concerning the grains of barley found in an archaeological dig there) and one on goddess worship within the LDS's denomination (approximately 5 percent of the membership profess goddess worship).


I probably could educate you in some areas of mormonism. <grin> I am trying to be informative and helpful to you so your understanding in mormonism can be correct.


~malaka~

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

I have to ask a question. How can we not be christians but his name is in the name of our christ. Our church is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints.

Click to expand...

The first-century church was referenced as "the Way". They didn't have "Jesus Christ" in their denominational name... there was only one "Way" and it was the Christian church. The LDS's were initially call the the "Church of Christ", then, the "Church of Latter-day Saints", and in 1838, the title of "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.... it appears that the naming of the church is as progressive as the teachings (smile).

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

I Why would Satan tell Joseph Smith to set up the true church and have a church that teachs about Christ and not to follow satan.

Click to expand...

Well, perhaps satan set up the LDS church so that a ritual of worship to Lucifer could be included in the secret rituals of the temple. There is such a ritual, isn't there? I could post the words that are said if you wish.

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

Also, what's up wit dis Mormon Jesus Chrsit and bibilical Jesus Chrsit? Jesus Chrsit is the first adn only begoten of the father. He was not conceived through physical intercourse. He was conceived through the holy ghost. Also, Jesus was half-immortal, half mortal.

Click to expand...

Wrong. Jesus was fully God and fully man. While mormonism makes the formal statement that Jesus Christ was not conceived through physical intercourse, the Gospel Principles do state, "All men and women are... literally the sons and daughers of Deity.... Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal (physical body). The Origins of Man, Joseph Smith

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

If he wasn't sinless then he couldn't have endured teh atonement and therefore men would be lost forever becuz there would be no way for us to spotless before god. So Jesus paid teh price for us. Christ needed to be half-immortal so he could raise himself from the dead otherwise it would impossible for us to be resurrected.

Click to expand...

Christ needed to be fully God to have the power over sin, death, and the grave. He had to be fully man to die so His blood could be shed as the final atonement.

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

I Chrsit probably is married, but like God, he doesn't want the world to defame his wife's name. I mean look at the world defame Heavenly Father's name everyday.

Click to expand...

Many mormons believe that Christ was married to MM and that their offspring is still a problem today...

http://www.mormons.org.uk/jcrefute.htm

THAT... is opinion...

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

I Yes, we can become like gods, that is true. I would like to know how God and Jesus Chrsit could be the same person. I mean, how could God talk to himself if he was on earth as Jesus Christ. Also, y would Jesus talk about doing his father's work? I am j/w. Lastly, we believe everyone is heavenly fahter's heavenly children. Lucipher was the second son and choose to rebel against god and his plan of salvation.

Click to expand...

Sorry, to burst your bubble, but as the Gospel Principles teach... "If we choose to do so, we can become perfect, just as they (our heavenly parents) are"... simply contradicts the teachings of the Bible, where it is identified that we will not know perfection until we are in the presence of God.

~malaka~

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

Actually that just says is that he is in the image of his father. Also, it says that he is like the father. Not that he is the father. Also, this corresponds to an earlier question, if God and Jesus are the same person then wouldn't god himself have done the atonement?

Click to expand...

There are two reasons why God could not/would not be the redeemer for the sins of mankind.


1) God the Father doesn't leave heaven.

2) God the Father is a spirit and, therefore, has no blood to make the atonement, or for the actual sprinkling of blood on the mercy seat to atone for the sins.



Now, explain to me how Joseph Smith can claim to have seen God and lived? (which is contrary to scriptures)


~malaka~

USSJ4Vegetto45 said:

What do u mean worship Christ? I don't believe god and Jesus Chrsit are the same person. I only worship god, I believe tha Jesus Christ died for my sins, and the sins of every person on this earth that has and ever will live. I believe he si the redeeme and messiah. I don't worship Christ like God because christ worshipped his father and I have been commanded only to worship him. To u worship Christ like God, oh ya, u believe some trinity principle that is very confusing and actually it was never mentioned in th orginal church till the Romans restructed it to fit their needs. I don't want to be rude but u need to realize that Christ had to do it on his own or how else could the atonement be done. Heavenly father knew he had to let him suffer the sins of the world. Also, they were never called tablets, they are called plates. And u say BYU says that teh book of mormon is fictionally. If so, why would my church which owns it sponsor FARMs which finds evidence each year to back up the book of mormon. Also, show me evidence in the bible where it talks about the trinity.

Click to expand...

My friend,

It doesn't make any different "what" you believe, you need to be studying what the Word of God states. There are numerous passages in the Bible that teach the doctrine of the trinity, and if you want to post a new question, I would be glad to discuss that with you.

The book of mormon was the creation of Joseph Smith. God states that He will preserve His word, and we all know that the first 116 pages of the book of mormon were lost.

You might find it of interest that this month, an article was published concerning numerology and the book of mormon... something similar to the Bible codes of the Hebrew texts of the Old Testament. There's no credibilty to the concept, but it's new for the LDS's.

http://www.greaterthings.com/Word-Number/Doctrine/588PageBookofMormon/index.html

Of note, for those unaware, the book of mormon is published with the same pagination in every edition.... except in the earliest editions.

<grin> I know what my next project of study will be.

My friend, do you know what the "sisterhood" of mormonism is.... and can you explain the blood atonement to these good folks? It was startling to me to learn what the "sisterhood" was in mormonism. THAT will certainly be on my agenda over the next few months.





~malaka~

OK, let me tell you from an unbiased perspective how the LDS have baptism for the dead to suppor their theology.

As Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, I forgot where, the LDS church stands or falls on Joseph Smith as a prophet. (Everything depends on whether or not he was telling the truth- that's scary!)

The LDS church is called the Church of Jesus Christ of LATTER-DAY Saints for a reason. They believe that the church first existed completely at the time of Christ, but at the death of the last apostle (not John), the church fell away into a Great Apostasy. That's why it's not the "Saints" but the "Latter-day" Saints. This one is restored 1730 years later.

Now, for 1730 years, the church was off the earth. That means that while there was a great apostasy, NO ONE had the opportunity to be exalted (celestial kingdom). That's unfair!

So that's why baptism for the dead was created for the people that lived during the Great Apostasy to receive the gospel after they died. Recently, they've expanded baptism for the dead to EVERYONE that dies. So whether or not you like it, you WILL be baptized for the dead.

I cannot tell you how much of a stench that gospel is to God. Galatians 1:8.

Baptism for the dead is a resulting doctrine that stems from the Great Apostasy. Since no one could have the full truth during that time period, to be fair there has to be SOME way for them to receive it.

Of course, what about those who died in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th century who we have no records for? How are they baptized for the dead? They aren't.

They believe that during the Millennial Kingdom, everyone will exist once again and Jesus will walk the streets and ALL people will have another opportunity to accept Him. So why baptize for the dead if EVERYONE has another opportunity during the Millennium? Beats me. It bears no logical consistency, but no one asked me.

TTYL Jesus loves you!

USSJ4Vegetto45

It is okay, "our" God the heavenly father, here, there, everywhere is our father. Everyone wants to tell what they feel and what they believe. I use to remember Do not eat the meat before the milk!! So, I am wondering why you are telling all the Mormon secrets, I do not know if you did your mission or not but, I have always heard that there are steps in this to make people believe,(I always thought that was either brain wash process, or trying people out to see if they are serious. I will admit, because I loved my ex a lot, I believe that some of the mormon believes, such as family, geneology...but, the baptism of the dead thing creeps me out. I do not believe in the God had sex with Mary thing, But do believe that heaven has fruit and vegs that were not grown by a tree, because they need no water or sun to grow because they are in the glory land, and there is every thing there. I do not think the garden of eden was in america, yet, it could have been. I do not think there is three heavens that people not so good can not visit the good ones, yet the good ones can visit the bad ones. If you are bad you are bad, that is what hell is for.( or what l.d.s. call total darkness)
I do like my sweet tea and will not give that up, so I am out right there alone, now coffee, well, I am not in to it any way, I sometimes am a free spirit when it comes to the under garmit thing so I do not think I want to wear more cloths that are from the temple, I have a protective sheild already it is God. I am not into gossip so that counts me out from the relief soc. everyone of them I went to the sat and canned and talked about people. I am in to the beautiful choir, you have. I am into not saying God in vain, I am into having as many children as God would give me, now I can not have anymore, that right there is beautiful. I am not into why the church will not let you wear crosses or fishes, to wear.
and my other question is why is there not any windows that view into the l.d.s. churches it is so dark sometimes with out windows.I do not like the divorce thing yet, I am living fact Mormons are not perfect eaither are people from other religous yet, if they try their best and love the lord our God that is what matters to me,
I know not all of them as mormons say the people are not perfect yet, supposiable the church is. I do believe that Joseph guy could have seen a angel, yet, the devil can appear also as anything.okay her are some believes and non beliefs I have with the Mormons, I like and do not like,....I am keeping mr lipton...tea..hehehe....by the way are you on a ship?
USSJ4Vegetto45 it is good to have people to talk to in the navy, yet there are not many l.d.s. chaplins around. Good night to you,and hay I do not think judgement is always the answer..next time tell us your testomony I will tell you mine. I have learned alot hum... but, you still do not have me believeing it yet... Love jenn


http://givenright.com
adoption search and connection to ones birth family.