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What do ppl think Mormons are a cult?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by USSJ4Vegetto45, Dec 25, 2001.

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  1. USSJ4Vegetto45

    USSJ4Vegetto45 Guest

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    I am a Mormon and ppl think we are a cult. I wonder why.
     
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  2. One thing I'm wondering...

    What is it about the Book of Mormon that is so important? What did it add to the Bible that wasn't there before?

    Could you answer that for me?
     
  3. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
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    Mormons do not believe Jesus Christ was God.
    This is first of all the basis for determining that Mormons are not "Christian" and thus practice a false religion.

    A cult is that which falls under certain categories; and my determination is that Mormonism is no more a cult than Hinduism or Islam is a cult. It is simply another religion apart from Christianity. A group more identifiable as a cult are Jehovah's Witnesses since they practice every single definition of a cult as found in a dictionary:

    1. requiring members to drop family connections
    2. religious regimen forcibly imposed or excommunication leads to you being the target of number 1.
    3. rights of individuals not respected
    4. conformist-thinking is made to be more important than free-thinking; and in some cults, free-thinking is looked down upon as blasphemy.

    the list goes on... but I can say Mormonism has made some remarkable changes to its image and has addressed the issues of it being a cult to the point where it is simply now another welcoming religion.

    But it is still false as compared to true Christianity as preached by Jesus Christ and his disciples - and thus it is still a false religion like all the others in the world who reject the deity of Jesus Christ and the "only way" doctrine of his salvation.
     
  4. WWJD777

    WWJD777 New Member

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    Well, I am an evangelical, and I believe that a cult is a sect of a religion, that breaks the basic fundational beliefs of the religion. To name a few, deny ing the Trinity and adding to the Bible. Now look. I am no theologion. I do know that, if you go to Rev. 22:19, it says if you add to the Bible you will be plagued.
     
  5. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

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    actually, and not to step on any toes; but that verse simply means adding to the words of the prophecy contained in Revelation. When Revelation was written, there was no bible as we know it today; so the context is merely for the prophecy and the book of Revelation itself.

    We add to scripture when we add our own understanding to it in sermons, prayers, and more. We are growing with God as we read the word, no new doctrines are created; but we grow as we adapt the living word to our daily lives. The prophecy of Revelation - indeed the whole book itself, is one of great mystery and it is the mystery of the prophecy that John warns the reader to not add anything to it that isn't already there.

    However, if you're referring to new words found in the Book of Mormon, you won't find a verse in the bible that says you can't have a book like it - because the bible itself is not really the Word of God. What is the bible? It is a collection of books from many different authors - all inspired by God; and the proof of this inspiration is found in the accuracies of doctrine, the accuracy of prophesies, the accuracy of reporting historical events, and so on.

    The Book of Mormon though, I can say, can not share in those claims like the books we find in the bible do. First off, there are no historical accounts of Nephi or other peoples mentioned in the Book of Mormon. This book was written in a time of yet-undiscovered country so the claims of a civilzation could not be investigated. However today, unlike what we find from biblical accounts of Israel and such, we don't find any archelogical evidence that any of the peoples and groups mentioned in the Book of Mormon ever existed at all, let alone do the areas and places mentioned exist. On this first charge, of which the bible passes with flying colors; the archeological and historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon falls flat so hard that it becomes a joke to continue testing it for Godly inspiration.

    Next, the doctrines of the Book of Mormon have changed several times since it's first writing. I believe there have been several versions written of the Book of Mormon over the last hundred years to correct these doctrines. This charge, of which the bible passes with flying colors; leaves the Book of Mormon to be a more fictitious and imaginitive piece of literature than a reliable source of even congruently consistent philosophical truth.

    Many prophecies found in the Book of Mormon are far too vague to be specific to test; unlike the specific prophesies we find in the books of Isaiah and Daniel of the bible.

    In all, the Book of Mormon is good fiction; as it is not based on even the remotest legends or historical truths, it has been rewritten over a hundred years, and its wording is far to vague in most cases to be considered of any use to one studying its divine inspiration.
     
  6. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    *raises hand* I do. :)
     
  7. WWJD777

    WWJD777 New Member

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    What do you mean? Have you ever read an epistle? It is obvious that the conclusion at the end of Rev, was to the Bible. Were do you get that?
     
  8. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
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    It's not where I got it but how I get it.

    Read church history sometime. You will find out that when John was writing Revelation that he is writing a letter while exiled on the island of Patmos. You will further find out that the bible of his day was not the bible we have today. John's bible was simply the old testament, to be more precise, it was the Greek Old Testament, also known in scholarly circles as the Greek Septuagint.

    So when John was writing Revelation, he wasn't writing something to be intended as scripture for a future bible. He was writing a prophecy he was very well believing himself would come to pass in his day. It was a letter to the persecuted churches in the Roman Empire, and it addresses several specific ones, their problems, and God's recommendations to fix them. After he addresses the churches, he answers the most popular quesiton of the church in that day: when is the end comming - and how? Obviously John has a vision from God that answers this very question.

    After penning the entire letter, it was literally a book! John knew it would be widely circulated, and that others would copy the words of Revelation as they shared it, and as such John felt strongly from the Lord to write a warning to those copying his book that detracting anything from the words of this prophecy would be a bad thing indeed.

    Reread the verse:
    "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them..."

    The verse speaks for itself, but the context makes it more clear. "Context" is the background and setting and intention of a written word. Once you know the context, all sorts of issues in the bible can be clarified and harmonized.
     
  9. USSJ4Vegetto45

    USSJ4Vegetto45 Guest

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    What minute. U said" Mormons do not believe Jesus Christ was God.
    This is first of all the basis for determining that Mormons are not "Christian" and thus practice a false religion." First of all, Jesus and Heavenly Father are two different beings. Let me ask u all a question. U believe that Jesus that was baptized by John the Baptist right. Well, look at Matthew 3:17, it says"And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Now wait, explain how Jesus can be both God and the messiah. Plz explain that. Also, his name is in the title of our church. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. One more thing about that. Have u ever fully studied my church or better yet, have u ever gone to one of our church meetings? Also, about the Book of Mormon, read Ezekiel 37:16-20, tell me what the stick of Ephraim is? Because the stick of Judah is the bible. One more fact about the book of mormon; in the book of mormon, there is a complex style of Jewish poetry called chiasium, i don't know if I spelled it right, but in the book of mormon, many examples of this poetry have been found and many scholars, most who were not Mormon, have said that the poems are actually chaisiums. About this, the book of mormon was first publsihed in 1830 and chiasium was discovered around 1860, like 30 first years later, so plz tell me how an uneducated farmer could know about a very complex form of Hebrew poetry that hadn't been discovered? Huh, explain that too. Well, I am not trying to sound like a jerk but what is say is true. But plz answer my questions if u can.
     
  10. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

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    "First of all, Jesus and Heavenly Father are two different beings."

    Not so. You can only worship God alone. Both Jesus and the Father are worshipped. They can only be one and the same God. If you have two beings being worshipped, then you have multiple gods; and the beginning foundations for pagan belief.

    "Now wait, explain how Jesus can be both God and the messiah."

    It is God who saves us, not someone else.

    "One more thing about that. Have u ever fully studied my church?"

    At one time I did.

    "Also, about the Book of Mormon, read Ezekiel 37:16-20, tell me what the stick of Ephraim is?"

    The explaination is found in the very next verses:

    Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on and say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.

    I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.

    It is a prophecy of the divided kingdoms of Israel and Judah being reunited again as one nation. This prophecy was fulfilled in 1948. One stick represents the southern kingdom (Judah), the other stick represents the northern kingdom (Joseph, who had a son named Ephraim). Joining them together is God's illustration of him rejoining Israel completely again sometime in the future.

    "plz tell me how an uneducated farmer could know about a very complex form of Hebrew poetry that hadn't been discovered?"

    Well, put it this way: God isn't the only one who can perform miracles and signs and wonders. Satan can too, and he counterfeits God's things with a passion. No doubt Smith was told by an "angel" the stuff you read in the Book of Mormon. I just question the nature of that angel. In my heart of hearts I believe that Smith's angel was a demon who also had great wisdom and knowledge to decieve even the very elect if it were possible. Smith sees an angel of light, and we know that demons - especially satan himself "maqurades as an angel of light." Just because Smith gets stuff more advanced than he doesn't mean it's legit. What is questionable is the source of that stuff he's getting. Who exactly is it that is giving it to him. I have a hunch it was probably the devil himself who knows a lot more than just Hebrew poetry to pass of what is counterfeit to what God has.
     
  11. USSJ4Vegetto45

    USSJ4Vegetto45 Guest

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    Read Numbers 17:2-10 and tell me what the rod is. Also in John 10:16, it says that: "Other sheep I have, which are not of this: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and other shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Now who are the other sheep. I believe they are the people who lived on the American continent in the Book of Mormon. Also, u say u studied my church. How did u study my church? I mean like did u study the doctrine and the whole nine yards? I guess u read the book of mormon but I would like to ask u if u read Moroni's Promise(Moroni 10:4-5). If u read the book of mormon and do what it says. U will more fully understand if it's true or not. Otherwise, if u just read it like Mark Twain did, then it will be like caliphform in print. That is what I did to see if it was true in my heart. Well, that's all I have to say.
     
  12. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    umm..the book of morman isn't true..I have that one good authority from God thanks ;) col 2:8
     
  13. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

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    Number 17:2-10 talks about the rod of Aaron. It was a test used by Moses and God to prove to the people of Israel that God had choosen Aaron and the Levites as the keepers and priests of the Tabernacle. Nothing more.

    John 10:16 has been used by the LDS to prove a biblical link to the Americans. What is gravely thin ice about this is that "other sheep" could mean anything from the Eskimos to the Japanese, to the Aboriginees, to the Africans.

    But let's try to find a biblical reasoning that fits what Jesus is talking about:

    In John 10, Jesus is talking to a bunch of disbelieving Pharisees (if you back up to chapter 9 you will see this). He says, "I have other sheep not of this sheep pen... and they too will listen to my voice."

    What is the current sheep pen Jesus is referring too? Quite simply, the disciples at the time.

    Who are the "other" sheep who will listen? This is quite simply found in verses 40-42 of the same chapter (John 10): Jesus went across the Jordan, people came to him, and many believed.

    Jesus is using most of chapter 10 to prove to the Pharisees that they are not of his sheep pen because if they were, they would hear his voice. But since they aren't, and they prepare to stone him for blaphemy, Jesus thus he must go away from these unlistening Pharisees to other sheep who will indeed hear his voice. The point of this whole chapter is that Jesus isn't going to waste his time trying to convince the Pharisees of something they will never believe. He is making a point that from this moment forward, his ministry will no longer be to prove that he is the messiah to the religious leaders of his day, but now his new mission is instead to speak to those who will listen and believe.

    And if to make my point, John 10:40-42 eloquently says: Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. Here he stayed and many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a miraculous sign, all that John said about this man was true." And in that place many believed in Jesus.

    Rather than taking one verse only, please, I implore you, the only way you can read scripture properly is to take it in it's context always, it's intended meaning - and context is always derived from the verses around it, before it, and after it!

    A lot of people only believe half-verses, or pick a verse like John 3:5 to prove you must be baptized to be saved, but many forget to go on and read John 3:6 which explains John 3:5 - which explains that "water" in John 3:5 is "flesh" in John 3:6!
     
  14. USSJ4Vegetto45

    USSJ4Vegetto45 Guest

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    Well, also he says, other sheep I have which are not of this fold. I have been told by ppl of other churchs that say that is points to ppl that were not in the roman world. Oh well, i guess you are right. But u say sheep pen, i guess fold means pen in the newer version. Also, Joespheus, you are very good with the bible. I would ask u if read the book of mormo as I asked u. I know I may be just a 16 year old young man but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the book of mormon is true and I will deny it. You may think I am being ignorant but I found out for myself. U can do the same. But remember, if u don't sincerley try, it won't matter. Also, i would like to ask what sect of christianity u belong to?
     
  15. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

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    I have not read the Book of Mormon in its entirety...though I could be wrong about even this claim as I do remember spending time reading it one day and remembered it wasn't very long to complete it.

    What I have come to realize is that the word of God is not what is found written on parchment, or paper, but what is found written on the tablet of your heart. The Book of Mormon adds nothing to the Bible, no scripture, no back-up claims; and in my opinion it is useless for determining doctrine which judges that which God has written on your heart. It has lots of good and imaginitive stories which sadly can not be proven, and with no archeological evidence to prove them as ever true, they remain as stories and the authenticity of the book or mormon being true falls to mere belief based on feelings rather than on fact. If you're comparing the scriptures in the bible to the words of the book of mormon, you're going to find the bible has a lot more to offer than the book of mormon ever can or ever hope for. The bible can be backed up by both God-given 'feelings' and facts. The book of mormon can't. I will not trust my eternal salvation on a simple 'feeling' either. I want truth, and nothing but the truth. You should too.

    I am 22. I was 16 not too long ago. I kinda know where you are comming from. Trust me, you are just getting started. The best advice or wisdom I can offer you is this: Don't be unwilling to consider that whatever truth you do believe may in fact be wrong. If you think you are right all the time, you will never be usable by God nor teachable by His Spirit. Don't ever forget that.
     
  16. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +261
    Messianic
    I have not read the Book of Mormon in its entirety...though I could be wrong about even this claim as I do remember spending time reading it one day and remembered it wasn't very long to complete it.

    What I have come to realize is that the word of God is not what is found written on parchment, or paper, but what is found written on the tablet of your heart. The Book of Mormon adds nothing to the Bible, no scripture, no back-up claims; and in my opinion it is useless for determining doctrine which judges that which God has written on your heart. It has lots of good and imaginitive stories which sadly can not be proven, and with no archeological evidence to prove them as ever true, they remain as stories and the authenticity of the book or mormon being true falls to mere belief based on feelings rather than on fact. If you're comparing the scriptures in the bible to the words of the book of mormon, you're going to find the bible has a lot more to offer than the book of mormon ever can or ever hope for. The bible can be backed up by both God-given 'feelings' and facts. The book of mormon can't. I will not trust my eternal salvation on a simple 'feeling' either. I want truth, and nothing but the truth. You should too.

    I am 22. I was 16 not too long ago. I kinda know where you are comming from. Trust me, you are just getting started. The best advice or wisdom I can offer you is this: Don't be unwilling to consider that whatever truth you do believe may in fact be wrong. If you think you are right all the time, you will never be usable by God nor teachable by His Spirit. Don't ever forget that.
     
  17. USSJ4Vegetto45

    USSJ4Vegetto45 Guest

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    Oh, well have u heard of F.A.R.M.S? There is actually evidence for the book of mormon. U can check up on it. I now know y u think it's false. Probably, becuz when u read it, u told yourself that it wasn't true so u already had it assumed that it wasn't true. So it did u no good. I would also like to ask if u have heard of Gordon B. Hinkley. He the prophet, head of our church, if u meet him, u would realize that he is called of God. Well, what u might think that I am just talking a lot of crap. Oh well, i don't want to seem rude but maybe u should follow your own advice and actually try to see if maybe it is true. Not trying to be mean.
     
  18. What did the Book of Mormon add to the Bible that wasn't there before?
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Just do some historical work on the book of mormon and you will see its not "right". Ryan, e-mail me and I can show ya a couple of links if you want..that goes for you too :)
     
  20. USSJ4Vegetto45

    USSJ4Vegetto45 Guest

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    Hey Lousibooth, why don't u tell me how it's not true. U sadi u have historical evidence. Now if u want u can e-mail it to me at [email protected]. If u wouldn't mind. I also appreciate everyone's opinion.
     
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