What do people think of the toronto thing & holy laughter

[mrhappy3]

When toronto came our way with all the barking and holy laughter, what did people think?

Was it of God, was some of it, or all?

Has anyone been a partaker of it ?

 

[nephilimiyr]

When toronto came our way with all the barking and holy laughter, what did people think?

Was it of God, was some of it, or all?

Has anyone been a partaker of it ?

I never witnessed it myself. I've seen video of this from those who believe it is more evil than from God and I must admitt, it does look freaky.

Who or what is toronto? I take it you're not referring to the city of Toronto.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

The Toronto Vineyard Movement was sparked when a man named Randy Clark went to the Toronto Airport Vineyard and the "Spirit" poured out with many maifestations.

Was it God? I don't think so. I have seen Randy on a coulpe of occasions and been involved in a number of churches that were linked to the movement. I always had a check in my spirit.

Research where Randy came from (Rodney Howard Browne and Copeland). The roots of the movement and where he came from are HIGHLY questionable.

I have witnessed these manifestations first hand and the thing that I question the most . . . the inability of the Christian to control themselves. You see control was what separated the NT Christians from the rest of the first Cent. religious world. Spirits would manifest in the pagan temples and people would "speak in ecstatic tongues, perform miracles" and "prophesy" just like the church. What set them apart was the ability of the Christian to control themselves.
You have heard of the term "mantis" like praying mantis? It is a Greek term that was designated to the pagan prophet who would go into a "trance" and speak in "tongues" (glosson ie languages) and sway back and forth while another interpreted the meaning (that is why the bug is called a "praying mantis"). There was no control . . . they just did and said all that they were led to.
However Paul says that there is control in the manifestation of the Spirit. So for me, whenever there is no control, or someone says to me "I had no control," I think there is legitimate reason to inspect and see if it is truly the Spirit of God.

 

[oneshot012]

I don't know about the Holy Laughter. I am truly not sure. I don't see an scriptual or references in church history to it and I spend my time researching and reading books on this stuff.

In reference to Toronto I don't know. My friend had recently went and he came back doing things he never has done before. He starts to shake when he prays and what not. But here is the good thing he witnesses now, he prays now, he is on fire to use the term. And for that I am thankful.

In terms of being not in control of when the Spirit comes on you I am not sure I do think caution has to be taken but sometimes it just comes take this story from the OT for example in 1 Sam 19:

20Then Saul sent messengers to take David, but when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing and presiding over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul; and they also prophesied. 21When it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. So Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied. 22Then he himself went to Ramah and came as far as the large well that is in Secu; and he asked and said, "Where are Samuel and David?" And someone said, "Behold, they are at Naioth in Ramah." 23He proceeded there to Naioth in Ramah; and the Spirit of God came upon him also, so that he went along prophesying continually until he came to Naioth in Ramah. 24He also stripped off his clothes, and he too prophesied before Samuel and lay down naked all that day and all that night Therefore they say, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"

Did they really have control? Sometimes I believe when the Spirit comes on you He takes control so I wonder whether I am being to critical or it is not the Spirit of God. Who knows? I certainly don't.

 

[heron]

I've seen some good things come of it and some bad.

A couple times, I saw tightly-wound preachers break into holy laughter, and their faces relaxed...it looked as though it was releasing years of pent-up stress. They were leaders who handled many heavy responsibilities.

On the other hand, I've been to some local meetings where a small group will break into it after the service as Mathetes is describing--as if consciously trying to get themselves into a trance (or looser) state.

It has disrupted some important discussions after services. The spirit then felt very self-serving, like enjoying partying together...but ignored the needs of people around them. I don't think those cases were uncontrollable, but contriving a state of consciousness.

The ones in the earlier incidents did seem almost uncontrollable...they were rigid people trying to hold it back. I think it was a healing process for them.

(Sorry, I'm P/C but technically not Pent...just ran across this topic)

 

[Tamara224]

When toronto came our way with all the barking and holy laughter, what did people think?

Was it of God, was some of it, or all?

Has anyone been a partaker of it ?

The two times I've been around when others had the 'holy laughter' I knew it wasn't from God. First of all...it was chaotic and disruptive in all instances.

One time, the person was laughing when another person was supposed to be giving a prophecy...it disrupted the service and she didn't stop for like a half an hour. Then, she started yelling really loudly, almost screaming, in tongues. I got a serious check in my spirit... in fact, God told me to leave, to get out of there. I, sadly, questioned that and decided to stick around for a while because I didn't want to cause a scene (I was on the worship team). It was at a weekend conference about 200 miles from my home and I had driven another person with me. The other woman and I discussed it and decided not to go back the next day. I was literally sick in my spirit for a week afterwards... I think the whole experience grieved the Holy Spirit. The woman laughing wasn't the whole problem... the entire 'conference' was of some spirit, but not the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, all of this is to say that in my experience the 'holy laughter' is not of God. I hate to pigeon-hole the Holy Spirit and say He can't move in a certain way... so I won't say emphatically that it's always wrong, but, it certainly isn't mentioned as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit in Scripture, and my experiences have led me to believe that it's probably not usually of God.

 

[heron]

You bring up an interesting point--being in a position where you know in your spirit you should get out, but you've committed to be there. I wonder how many people in the congregation were feeling the same ickyness. Maybe as the WT priest, leading in worship, it's important to take those steps, to turn the direction of the service around.

I think that sometimes these chaotic-spirited things generate from one person allowing them, but turn into a power source in the whole room.

.

 

[eringilmour]

The Toronto Blessing I think was somewhat forced, A church here went over to Toroto and supposidly brought it back... For me I believe that the Holy spirit would do nothing to humilate us so people running about barking like dogs or flaling on the ground I personally believe that this wasn't from God.... The Toronto Blessing was a movemnet of the Holy Spirit in Toronto, But my view is why do we have to label it when Gods spirit moves, he moves all the time and it is a question of if we will allow him to meve in us all the time.....

I have not objection to Holy Laughter or to being Slain in the Spirit or to Groaning of the Spirit, I believe that these are from God.....

 

[Tamara224]

You bring up an interesting point--being in a position where you know in your spirit you should get out, but you've committed to be there. I wonder how many people in the congregation were feeling the same ickyness. Maybe as the WT priest, leading in worship, it's important to take those steps, to turn the direction of the service around.

I think that sometimes these chaotic-spirited things generate from one person allowing them, but turn into a power source in the whole room.

Yeah, when I think about that weekend, I always regret that I didn't do something to stop it. It was a women's conference and there were only about 50 people there. The problem was mostly the 'leader/teacher/preacher/organizer of the conference. She had some serious issues and I came away sure that she was a wolf in sheep's clothing, a false teacher and a false shepherd intent on leading others astray. The worship leader was a good woman, she was humble and I believe very sincere in wanting to please God. Unfortunately, she was a baby Christian and unable to discern the problems with the 'leader.' I deeply regret that I didn't stand up and denounce the leader in front of them all. I believe that I should have and that I was being disobedient to the Holy Spirit by not doing so. I allowed it to continue when I knew it was wrong.

I think we often sit back and question silently when we should do something or say something. Mature Christians with greater discernment too often allow the chaos because they are too timid, too afraid of 'stifling' the Holy Spirit.

 

[heron]

I've had a couple situations like this, and I wasn't sure whom to go to. In my situations, the pastors and moderators of the service were behind the people in question. Sometimes I will pass a note to someone, but other times I feel very stuck.

In your head, you can play out what will happen, and very often it means that you take the heat for weeks before someone admits you might have been hearing from God.

All of this happens on the spot, and it's easy to panic and think there are no options. Maybe it's worth thinking through a backup plan. Sometimes I find an intercessor and ask them for extra prayer over that concern....

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I think that a person can be completely yeilded (sp?) to God, and what seems like they have no control is really just their openess to the Spirit.
I mean surely the Spirit can do whatever He pleases with a completely yeilded vessel. But I would say that such yeildedness is probably more the rarity than commonality.

But when it comes down to it, Paul says that the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. Hence he says that only two or at the most three should speak while the others pass judgement. Paul feels that there is a place where one ultimately can decided not to give in to the urges they feel in their spirit, esp. concerning the manifestation of the gifts. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman I would say.

I heard of one who began to crow like a rooster during a service . . . when asked why, the reply was that "God told me to because a new day is dawning on the Church." I don't know about you . . . but that is way too subjective; and subjectivity is where we run into gross error.

Perhaps there is something to be examined concerning control of one's gifting in the Spirit vs. the "other" types of manifestations of the Spirit. Or perhaps they are one and the same.

 

[JEBrady]

I think that a person can be completely yeilded (sp?) to God, and what seems like they have no control is really just their openess to the Spirit.
I mean surely the Spirit can do whatever He pleases with a completely yeilded vessel. But I would say that such yeildedness is probably more the rarity than commonality.

But when it comes down to it, Paul says that the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. Hence he says that only two or at the most three should speak while the others pass judgement. Paul feels that there is a place where one ultimately can decided not to give in to the urges they feel in their spirit, esp. concerning the manifestation of the gifts. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman I would say.

I heard of one who began to crow like a rooster during a service . . . when asked why, the reply was that "God told me to because a new day is dawning on the Church." I don't know about you . . . but that is way too subjective; and subjectivity is where we run into gross error.

Perhaps there is something to be examined concerning control of one's gifting in the Spirit vs. the "other" types of manifestations of the Spirit. Or perhaps they are one and the same.

He said 2 or 3 speak in tongues, AND each in turn, and everything was to be done decently and in order.

The thing though, in ch. 12 of 1 Co when he talks about manifestations is the emphasis over and over that it is one and the same Holy Spirit that works all of these. We have to judge the spirit.

If it will bring confusion if everyone is speaking in tongues and it's not being done in order, AND by the right spirit, how much more confusing if people are pulling some of the stuff reported out of the Toronto business? Even if it was God, it was so out of order because of abuse that it couldn't have accomplished much good.

 

[heron]

began to crow like a rooster during a service . . . when asked why, the reply was that "God told me to because a new day is dawning on the Church."

Once in a while I've felt God urging me to do something odd in a context of intercession, or declaring something (no crowing) but I go out into the hallway or the back of the sanctuary so it's not distracting.

If you're honestly supposed to take action to accomplish something in prayer, other people don't need to hear or see it. If it's prophetic information, then it should probably be screened and presented more formally.

 

[Tenebrae]

The two times I've been around when others had the 'holy laughter' I knew it wasn't from God. First of all...it was chaotic and disruptive in all instances.

Agreed, I've noticed when the Spirit moves, and I mean really moves not just humans imitating there is a really beautiful sound, and everything continued in unison

Like when I was in an anglican church, when the spirit moved and people started singing in the spirit, even though 20 or 30 people were singing different songs to God, it was all in harmony

Compared to the church I have just left, I always had the "check in my spirit, because it felt like the worship leaders were trying to force the spirit to move, and to use the example of singing in the spirit, alot of the times it sounded horrible, the worship leader was over miked and instead of that beautiful harmony it full of discordant notes and there wasnt that sound of unity

Thats just my experience though

 

[heron]

ompared to the church I have just left, I always had the "check in my spirit, because it felt like the worship leaders were trying to force the spirit to move, and to use the example of singing in the spirit, alot of the times it sounded horrible, the worship leader was over miked and instead of that beautiful harmony it full of discordant notes and there wasnt that sound of unity

Oh yeah, that drives me nuts.

 

[freemansw]

Agreed, I've noticed when the Spirit moves, and I mean really moves not just humans imitating there is a really beautiful sound, and everything continued in unison

Like when I was in an anglican church, when the spirit moved and people started singing in the spirit, even though 20 or 30 people were singing different songs to God, it was all in harmony

Compared to the church I have just left, I always had the "check in my spirit, because it felt like the worship leaders were trying to force the spirit to move, and to use the example of singing in the spirit, alot of the times it sounded horrible, the worship leader was over miked and instead of that beautiful harmony it full of discordant notes and there wasnt that sound of unity

Thats just my experience though

That reminds of an expression we used in an old fashioned Pentecostal church I went to, it’s called “trying to sing up a shout”. I have been to some churches where they tried to force the Spirit by singing for well over 45 minutes and nothing would happened.

 

[Tamara224]

Like when I was in an anglican church, when the spirit moved and people started singing in the spirit, even though 20 or 30 people were singing different songs to God, it was all in harmony

That's the way it's supposed to be...awesome!

 

[JEBrady]

That reminds of an expression we used in an old fashioned Pentecostal church I went to, it’s called “trying to sing up a shout”. I have been to some churches where they tried to force the Spirit by singing for well over 45 minutes and nothing would happened.

Whenever God would really move during a particular song, it was guaranteed we would end up singing that song sometime during every service for the next month, sort of hoping for a "repeat performance", which never did happen.

 

[spiritwind]

What is interesting is when does the act of singing in the spirit become singing in the flesh?

As alluded to earlier it seems that it can be so easy to start someting that that was inspired from the Holy Spirit and finish it in the human spirit.

I believe the heart is in the right place and motives well meant but the sensitivity isn't right somehow. I know I have been guilty of such action in the past.

We cannot coerce God into action through our own manipulation, singing people into a heightened state of spiritual alertness. Though I have been in many a service where it has almost felt that if nothings happening then we need to get people to sing more to raise the level of faith.

I worry sometimes that nowadays we cannot tell the difference sometimes between spiritual guidance and psychological manipulation.

 

[Tamara224]

I worry sometimes that nowadays we cannot tell the difference sometimes between spiritual guidance and psychological manipulation.

Wow, great quote...can I use this? It is unfortunately very true.

How do we fix this? Can we fix it?