What do children really need to learn about in school?

[Ringo84]

The difference between transgender and race is this: studies that have been done (for example by The Portman Clinic, London, and Vanderbuilt University) have indicated 70 to 80 percent of children spontaneously lose these feelings over time (of gender dysphoria) this is known as desistence.

What’s Missing From the Conversation About Transgender Kids

The myth of the “transgender desistance myth”

There needs to be a bit of firmness on this issue, and it looked into why some children persist in feeling/thinking this way and whether it is really a disorder of assumption.

I believe that with appropriate skill, sensitivity, direction most children could be helped with this sort of dysphoria, and to accept themselves as how they were born either boy or girl. That is what is needing to be talked about, that is were research needs to be done.

It is not right to start a child on a course that will post-pone their puberty using powerful drugs, leading to multiple surgery, continued drugs through their life, and that in the end doesn't seem make many who go through with it any happier.

Here are some recent news reports that people need to be aware of especially as many vitally important issues that need public awareness and debate are getting buried amidst the news about Brexit.

NHS transgender clinic accused of covering up negative impacts of puberty blockers on children by Oxford professor

NHS child gender reassignment 'too quick'

Governor of Tavistock Foundation quits over damning report into gender identity clinic

Gender identity clinic accused of fast-tracking young adults

Calls to end transgender ‘experiment on children’

Stop this trans exploitation of children

Suspend (Trans)gender Services at Tavistock Now

Workers at transgender clinic quit over concerns of 'unregulated live experiments on children' | Daily Mail Online

Tavistock’s Experimentation with Puberty Blockers: Scrutinizing the Evidence - Transgender Trend


Suicide rates are higher post transgender surgery than before.

Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;' Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

I don't especially feel like getting into an argument with you about Transgenderism, but it seems excessively cruel to me to quote statistics saying that Trans people have higher suicide rates and then turning around and claiming that it's a reason why we should tell these people that they're somehow victims of a "disorder".

What you want is not to actually help these people, but torment them far worse than they already are by making them feel as though they're "wrong" and that we need to "help" them better understand themselves. This is not what I consider to be a compelling reason to stay quiet on LGBTQ issues - as a matter of fact, I would say that it's a compelling reason to discuss it in school.
Ringo

 

[dms1972]

I don't especially feel like getting into an argument with you about Transgenderism, but it seems excessively cruel to me to quote statistics saying that Trans people have higher suicide rates and then turning around and claiming that it's a reason why we should tell these people that they're somehow victims of a "disorder".

You seem to have misunderstood, that is absolutely not my point. I am pointing out that when started on a course of medication to block puberty that isn't helping some of them. All the press articles I have come across (from multiple sources) are suggesting they are being used currently as guinea-pigs, that it is an unregulated live experiment, that the drugs used are not even licensed for this. That is what I am objecting to I am not saying there is any wrong with them or they should be put through this. If they are gender dysphoric, it would seem to be sensible to at least begin by seeing if wise counsel and some help to be comfortable with their own body (however that can be best achieved) would help them.

I am questioning whether these things should be talked about in school (as though transgenderism - being born in the wrong body just is a fact - when current scientific evidence runs against this conclusion and its currently a massive area of controversy).

The 'Pink and Blue Brain' Myth - Transgender Trend

Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic

[edited]

It may be normal for some children growing up to have some of these feelings (as some of the articles I linked to suggested) I included that POV - and that they may spontaneously cease to have them as they get older. That therefore there is no need for them to be anywhere near a transgender clinic.

What however has happened is that certain transgender pressure groups in the UK have generated a toxic climate for discussion that does not lend itself to thoughtful reflection, healthy skepticism, consideration of other possibilities etc. This has led to 25 fold increase in children being refered to a transgender clinic, under pressure from transgender groups who seem to want caution thrown to the wind and who are ready to brand anyone who disagrees trans-phobic, bigoted etc.

What is wrong is refering children to clinics when they say claim to be "trans-" and merely on the basis of that, and then from there neglecting a whole host of other factors and to consider that maybe they have picked this up from social media or their peer group. What is wrong in is pressuring clinics to go the route of affirming these children to be trans-gendered, something that there is no science to support that it even exists (ie. 'being born into the wrong body')

We see on these forums from time to time people asking if they or their child has Aspergers syndrome because they dislike the feel of clothing labels or balloons bursting. What responsible clinician would take the child's word for it, in other words what clinician would rule out ruling out Aspergers. Ah but Aspergers is not a hot politicised, toxic issue like trans-genderism. Take issue with a child's claim to be trans-whatever and these pressure groups weigh in on it, they don't even accept the fact (which is born out by research) of desistence - they are trying to call the desistence of these feelings a myth now (see linked to article). Clinicians are worried about being called 'trans-phobic'.

What there is research for is that such ideations may also be 'contagious', that is to say children can be influenced by social media and peers.

What do you think five staff whistleblowers in the last few months are concerned about?, and 18 resignations from the only clinic in England that treats these children, and some of them only stayed as long as they did to protect children being refered (all in the news articles)

Needless to say as soon a one of these children turns 18, and then sues, all this will stop! Its a shame it takes that to happen to bring people to their senses.

 

[JackRT]

About 25 years ago I attended a joint seminar between several hundred high school teachers and several dozen major players in business and industry to examine the interface between us. In an open session at the conclusion I asked " Exactly what does business and industry expect of teachers?" Several answers were forthcoming but they all boiled down to much the same --- Don't try to teach a job, we will teach them to do the job we want them to do. Send us people that have had as wide an education as possible. But above all send us people with integrity. We need people who will show up and show up on time and put in an honest day's work without cutting corners and trying to steal us blind. It all came down to that one word --- integrity.

 

[timothyu]

It all came down to that one word --- integrity.

Interesting because at that time school resources and school psychologists were starting to teach the kids that their rights were more important than responsibility. That needs to be reversed.

 

[Ringo84]

You seem to have misunderstood, that is abolutely not my point. I am questioning whether these things should be talked about in school (as though transgenderism -being born into the wrong body just is something that happens to some kids - when the scientific evidence runs against this conclusion and its currently a massive area of controversy).

[edited]

It may be normal for a child growing up to have some of these feelings (as some of the articles I linked to suggested) I included that POV - and that they spontaneously cease to have them as they get older. That therefore there is no need for them to be anywhere near a transgender clinic.

What is wrong is building a transgender ideology on those passing thoughts, putting this transgender ideology into their minds through storybooks. Fast tracking children into life altering courses of drugs and later surgery under pressure from transgender groups who want caution thrown to the wind and who are ready to brand anyone who disagrees trans-phobic. What is wrong in every conceivable way is refering children to clinics when they say they might be "trans-" and merely on the basis of that, and then from there failing to consider that maybe they have picked this up from social media or their peer group. What is wrong in everyway is pressuring clinics to rush children into treatment, for something that there is no science to support that it even exists (ie. being born into the wrong body)

We see on these forums from time to time people asking if they or their child has Aspergers syndrome because they dislike the feel of clothing labels or balloons bursting. What responsible clinician would take the child's word for it, in other words what clinician would rule out ruling out Asperger's. Ah but Aspergers is not a hot politicised, toxic issue like trans-genderism. Take issue with a child's claim to be trans-whatever and these pressure groups weigh in on it, they don't even accept the fact (born out by research) of desistence - they are trying to call the desistence of these feelings a myth now (see linked to article). Clinicians are worried about being called 'trans-phobic'.

What there is research for is that such ideations may also be 'contagious', that is to say children can be influenced by social media and peers.

What do you think five whistleblowers in the last few months are concerned about?, and 18 resignations from the only clinic in England that treats these children, and some of them only stayed as long as they did to protect children being refered (all in the news articles)

Needless to say as soon a one of these children turns 18, and then sues, the practice will soon stop! Its a shame it takes that to happen to bring people to their senses.

There's no """ideology""" except "be true to yourself and what feels right for you". The fact that you personally dislike Transgenderism doesn't mean that it's automatically bad or that it shouldn't be taught in school. The alternative is pretending that it - and people who are confused and/or conflicted about their gender - don't exist. That causes the exact kind of suicide you claim to want to stop.
Ringo

 

[dms1972]

There's no """ideology""" except "be true to yourself and what feels right for you". The fact that you personally dislike Transgenderism doesn't mean that it's automatically bad or that it shouldn't be taught in school. The alternative is pretending that it - and people who are confused and/or conflicted about their gender - don't exist. That causes the exact kind of suicide you claim to want to stop.
Ringo

I haven't said that once, that they don't exist, I have post article after article which states that gender dysphoria does exist. Why don't we see first if we can help them to not be conflicted about their gender, to see if it desists, and to help them to be comfortable in their own body? What I am questioning in my post is it persistence in every case, something that some research I posted is also questioning, and whether such dysphoria always indicates transgenderism or is a result of something else?

Its becoming increasingly clear and more and more difficult to deny there is often an ideology at work it really is obvious at times as scientists do not call other scientists who disagree with them bigots!

The evidence is pointing to more self-harm expecially among girls following being put on puberty blockers. It's the transgender pressure groups that are saying in effect there is something wrong with these kids, that are pressuring government and doctors not to wait till children are 16 before putting them on these blockers - the long term damage is that if allowed to go naturally through puberty their bones get stronger etc, they therefore end up with weaker bones when put on these blockers. Is your head full of fluff or what that you cannot understand? No one is denying that kids may have these feelings. But feelings do not always reflect reality! I am not saying they should be made to feel that something is wrong with them, quite the opposite, it is the transgender pressure groups are saying they should be told in effect "yes you are in the wrong body, you must have you puberty blocked, your name changed, you clothes changed etc.", they don't want for instance young children to be helped to feel comfortable in their own bodies.

As it is said: "None so blind as those who will not see."

 

[Ringo84]

Yes, it’s all a giant conspiracy to make all our previous boys into girls. And just as clearly, it’s not people like you who treat Trans as a “disorder” to be “cured” who are causing the high prevalence of suicide, but people who actually want to help them. This definitely makes sense and isn’t evidence of bias at all, no sir.

I said I didn’t care to debate Transgenderism with you, and I still don’t. But closing our eyes and pretending that there’s a pill that can be dispensed to “cure” it is not a solution.
Ringo

 

[dms1972]

Yes, it’s all a giant conspiracy to make all our previous boys into girls. And just as clearly, it’s not people like you who treat Trans as a “disorder” to be “cured” who are causing the high prevalence of suicide, but people who actually want to help them. This definitely makes sense and isn’t evidence of bias at all, no sir.

I said I didn’t care to debate Transgenderism with you, and I still don’t. But closing our eyes and pretending that there’s a pill that can be dispensed to “cure” it is not a solution.
Ringo

I am trying to figure out from your last comment if you think I am advocating pills, surgery. etc for childrem with gender dysphoria? If that is so I am not sure how you could so badly misread my posts. Maybe you are not refering to me in that comment?

And no its not a conspiracy of that nature as anyone with a capacity for nuanced understanding of the matter could see, its a sad fact of reality, that in an enviroment made toxic by political correctness risks removing checks of healthy skepticism, and that transgender ideology, political correctness is sticking out at times like a sore thumb in this.

As I said before one group of scientists doesn't brand another bigots for disagreeing with them.

What is needed is for the climate in which these issues are discussed to be made less toxic, and the best way for that to happen is for those who disagree with some of the conclusions, approaches etc. of researchers, scientists, clinicians in this field, to stop using pejorative language, and calling people bigots, or trans-phobic etc, calling for them to be sacked and whatnot, and instead to present credible research that will stand up to scrutiny and which will show those they disagree with if they are wrong. Those who do that should be rewarded with coverage, those who don't shouldn't be given funding, or airtime.

 

[JackRT]

Interesting because at that time school resources and school psychologists were starting to teach the kids that their rights were more important than responsibility. That needs to be reversed.

I don't remember that at all.

 

[timothyu]

I don't remember that at all.

I do. There was a sudden plague of kids accusing parents and teachers of all sorts of things, testing out their new powers. It subsided but never stopped and meanwhile the psychologists became a permanent fixture in schools to deal with the kids.Typical human nature. Create a problem then step in as the saviour.

 

[dms1972]

I do. There was a sudden plague of kids accusing parents and teachers of all sorts of things, testing out their new powers. It subsided but never stopped and meanwhile the psychologists became a permanent fixture in schools to deal with the kids.Typical human nature. Create a problem then step in as the saviour.

There has been a pendulum swing that's for sure. I don't know if people remember the video of the Pink Floyd song: Another Brick in the Wall, there was certainly some political undercurrents in that song and video. I heard it first I think when I was about ten. Its undeniable however that there was a very different climate in schools in the past from now, stemming no doubt from a shift in educational philosophy. Some of what happened in the past was good, other aspects I don't think I would like to see a return to. But it certainly is more difficult now for teachers.

 

[timothyu]

But it certainly is more difficult now for teachers.

There was a time when parents were upset that the system inflicted it's own ideas upon children who belonged to parents to raise as they saw fit. Now it seems the reverse is more true and from day care to college the ideals are someone else's problem to teach. But when free thinking hasn't been part of the culture for 50 years, things change.