What Did The ECF Believe About End Times

Choose Wisely said:

And this.............
Rev 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

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Choose Wisely said:

Or this..................
Rev 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

And this.............
Rev 14
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

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• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

jgr said:

Most recent population of Israel: 8,855,000

Number of scriptural Jews required to designate Israel as scripturally Jewish: 8,855,000 /2 + 1 = 4,427,501

Number of dispensationally scriptural Jews: 144,000

Correct scriptural designation is NonJewish Israel


The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:

• Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
• Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
• Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
• Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
• Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
• Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
• Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
• Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
• Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
• Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
• Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
• Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and oneness are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000

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Choose Wisely said:

He says the 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe. Those tribes are scattered across the earth. I think I'm going with God on this one. You can go with the failed religion if you choose.

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Biblewriter said:

And what, pray tell, does all this have to do with the subject of this thread? As usual, the naysayers have completely derailed the discussion.

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BABerean2 said:

Who do you think James was speaking to in the passage below, if you think the twelve tribes have nothing to do with the Church?

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


Who do you think Peter was talking to on the Day of Pentecost in the passage below?

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

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Choose Wisely said:

Yeah........the early church was not the Gentiles..........Then what happened. Of course you know the answer............and yet you......as usual........DENY THE TRUTH. And you know you are DENYING THE TRUTH.
Rom 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

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Choose Wisely said:

It should be telling someone that both folds are being brought in to one fold.

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BABerean2 said:

The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of believing Israelites, and believing Gentiles.

Your doctrine falls apart once a person comes to understand that all of the Israelites were not broken off of the Olive Tree.
Only those who failed to believe were the branches broken off.
They can be grafted back into the tree through faith in Christ.
Paul proves this by describing the "remnant" in Romans 11:5.

All of the Israelites were not "partially" blinded.
Instead, part were blinded and part were not.

Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 "LORD, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS AND TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY SEEK MY LIFE"?
Rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:8 Just as it is written: "GOD HAS GIVEN THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR, TO THIS VERY DAY."
Rom 11:9 And David says: "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RECOMPENSE TO THEM.
Rom 11:10 LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED, SO THAT THEY DO NOT SEE, AND BOW DOWN THEIR BACK ALWAYS."
Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
Rom 11:12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
Rom 11:14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

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jgr said:

What is the one fold?

1. Church
2. Israel

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Choose Wisely said:

Oh cool a rookie trick question. I choose option 3

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jgr said:

The last reference to an ECF (Irenaeus) that I see in this thread was by "naysayer" BAB2 in post #30.

It rather appears that the "yeasayers" are responsible for the derailment.

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BABerean2 said:

Here we find a clear teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture."

Your claim of a "clear teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture", is not found in the words of Irenaeus.
You are turning the word "tribulation" into a "tribulation period" in order to make your doctrine work.
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Daniel Marsh said:

1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons "as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance -- in fact, as nothing;"(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold.
And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own

person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels.

Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapters 19 to 31 | CARM.org

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Choose Wisely said:

You are going to have to do a lot more twisting and taking things out of context to make your doctrine work. The word says two folds into one fold.

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LittleLambofJesus said:

This site may interest you and or others................
I would like to find what early century Jews believed concerning eschatology.
After all, almost all the end-time events pertain to them, imho.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/

https://www.preteristarchive.com/early-christians-on-matthew-24-and-ad70-study-archive/

Early Christian Views on
Matthew 24 and AD70

• 71+AD The Jewish Sibylline Oracles (On the cause of the desolation) “An evil storm of war will also come upon Jerusalem from Italy, and it will sack the great Temple of God whenever they put their trust in folly and cast off piety and commit repulsive murders in front of the Temple. . . . A leader of Rome will come to Syria who will burn the Temple of Jerusalem with fire, at the same time slaughter many men and destroy the great land of the Jews with its broad roads. Then indeed an earthquake will destroy at once Salamis and Paphos when the dark water overwhelms Cyprus, which is washed by many waves.” (A.D. 80; 4115-118, 125-129)

• 71+AD The Jewish Talmud (On the Significance of the Forty Year Period) (The Soncino Talmud, Seder Mo’ed, vol. III Toma, p. 186) [Note: This was fulfilled to the letter! See: The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem]

• 75AD Flavius Josephus (note: Josephus was not a Christian but a Jewish historian) ( The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem Book VI, Chapter V, Section 2).

90AD Clement of Rome (Displaying Fulfillment of Matthew 24:14) The Martyrdom Of Peter And Paul. “But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes.(11) Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation.
90AD Clement of Rome (On the Last Days) “the Books and the Apostles teach that the church is not of the present, but from the beginning. For it was spiritual, as was also our Jesus, and was made manifest at the end of the days in order to save us. (Chap. XIV.– The Second Epistle to the Corinthians)..............

130AD Barnabas (On the demise of the Temple in the last days) “Moreover I will tell you likewise concerning the temple, how these wretched men being led astray set their hope on the building, and not on their God that made them, as being a house of God...........(Epistle of Barnabas, 16:1 ff.)
130AD Barnabas (On the fulfillment of prophecy) “Moreover understand this also, my brothers. When ye see that after so many signs and wonders wrought in Israel, even then they were abandoned, let us give heed, lest haply we be found, as the scripture saith, many called but few chosen. . .” (4:14, Epistle of Barnabas).....
130AD Barnabas (On the fulfillment of prophecy) “Therefore the Son of God came in the flesh to this end, that He might sum up the complete tale of their sins against those who persecuted and slew His prophets.” (5:11, Epistle of Barnabas)

150AD Justin Martyr (On the fulfillment of Isaiah 2:4) CHAP. XXXIX.–Direct Predictions By The Spirit. “And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.. (First Apology of Justin Martyr, ch. 11)
150AD Justin Martyr (On The Power of the Jews in the First Century) “The power of the Jews was now grown so great, that after this Antiochus they would not bear any Macedonian king over them; and that they set up a government of their own, and infested Syria with great wars.” (Quoted by Whiston, p. 2009)
150AD Justin Martyr (On the Significance of A.D.70) CHAP. XLVII.–Desolation Of Judaea Foretold. That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy......................
150AD Justin Martyr Chap. Xlvii.–Desolation Of Judaea Foretold. That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy. And the words were spoken as if from the person of the people wondering at what had happened. They are these: “Sion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.

160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) “We have still to add to our chronology the following, — I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian.............
160AD Clement of Alexandria (On the Significance of the A.D.70) “Whence also Peter, in his Preaching, speaking of the apostles, says: ‘But we, unrolling the books of the prophets which we possess, who name Jesus Christ, partly in parables, partly in enigmas, partly expressly and in so many words.......

160AD Tertullian Chap. Viii.–Of The Times Of Christ’s Birth And Passion, And Of Jerusalem’s Destruction. “Accordingly the times must be inquired into of the predicted and future nativity of the Christ, and of His passion, and of the extermination of the city of Jerusalem, that is, its devastation.............
160AD Tertullian CHAP. XXIII.–The Dispersion Of The Jews, And Their Desolate Condition For Rejecting Christ, Foretold..........

170AD Melito, Bishop of Sardis (On the Significance of A.D.70).....
174AD Irenaeus (On Significance of A.D. 70) Chap. Iv.–
185AD Origen “But if “the children of Israel are to sit many days without a king, or ruler, or altar, or priesthood, or responses;”............
200AD Hippolytus of Rome (On the Significance of A.D.70)
200AD Tertullian Chap. Viii.– Of Jerusalem’s Destruction.
225AD Origen (On Luke 21:20)
225AD Origen (On The Faulty ‘Literal Method of Bible Interpretation’) “Many, not understanding the Scriptures in a spiritual sense, but incorrectly, have fallen into heresies.”
225AD Origen (On The Significance of A.D. 70)
250AD Cyprian (Thascius Caecilius Cyprianus) (On the Fulfillment of Prophecy)
250AD Lactantius
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On James, the Lord’s Brother in A.D. 65)
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On Matthew 24:34)
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On the ‘Millennial Reign’ of Christ)
325AD Eusebius Pamphilius, Ecclesiastical History: (On the Significance of A.D.70) “If any one compares the words of our Saviour with the other accounts of the historian (Josephus) concerning the whole war, how can one fail to wonder, and to admit that the foreknowledge and the prophecy of our Saviour were truly divine and marvelously strange.” (Book III, Ch. VII)
345AD Athanasius “So the Jews are indulging in fiction, and transferring present time to future. When did prophet and vision cease from Israel?
375AD Chrysostom: “What then saith He? “Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying,
375AD ‘John’ Chrysostom, Homily St. Matthew: (On Matthew 24:1,2) “And as He sat upon the mount of Olives,
403AD Sulpcius Severus (On The Roman-Jewish War)
403AD Sulpicius Severus (On the Significance of A.D.70)
419AD Augustine (On the ‘Final Destruction’ of the Jews)
.

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Choose Wisely said:

It should be telling someone that both folds are being brought in to one fold.

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BABerean2 said:

If Romans 11 is not about two (Israelites, and Gentiles) folds into one, what is it about?

.

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Choose Wisely said:

It should be telling someone that both folds are being brought in to one fold.

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jgr said:

The last reference to an ECF (Irenaeus) that I see in this thread was by "naysayer" BAB2 in post #30.

It rather appears that the "yeasayers" are responsible for the derailment.

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DavidPT said:

Since there can only be one fold total when all is said and done, what should we assume that one fold is referring to? If Jesus is that one shepherd, what is it that Jesus is the head of? I would think this one fold and what Jesus is the head of, that these are one and the same.

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