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My statement had nothing to do with limited or unlimited atonement. It was a statement to believers. It could be one that I make to you. So since I have repeatedly told you that it has nothing to do with limited or unlimited atonement, then any further comments directed to me in that manner will be red herrings.
And your use of those verses has been refuted every time.
However, when your communication was not clear to me, I asked for clarification. Isn't that an OK thing to do on this forum?
I agree that we should desire the salvation of all people. In fact that is exactly what the Scriptures affirm: 'not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance' (2 Pt 3:9 ESV).
However, I do not find it truthful to say, 'Christ died for our sins' to sinners and mean (based on one's theology), 'Christ did not die for all the sins in the world and you might not be included in this application of salvation. You may be predestined to damnation'.
29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 So they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they[e] killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”
The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
1 Corinthians 15:1-5
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
In verse 3 he says, 'For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures'. When he initially preached to them, he could not have said that Christ died for believers sins, or Christ did not die for all men - verse 3 simply does not allow for it. On the contrary, Paul says in verse 1, '...I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you...'. Paul wants to remind them of what he said. What did he say? He said:
'...Christ died for our sins...'
To be clear, the whole crowd were unbelievers when Paul first preached in Corinth. We know this because of what Paul wrote in Rom 15:20 -Right.
So what did he say to the Corinthians when he initially preached to them? What did he say to the crowd that included non-believers?
Impossible, because Paul's ministry was to preach where the name of Christ had not been preached before, per Rom 15:20.Janx,
"our sins" here mean the group of believers.
Yes, he did say. 1 Cor 15:1-11 is a reminder to the believers of what he initially preached to them before they believed. We know this from v.11 - Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.He doesn't say.
Paul indicates that it is also normative language to tell a crowd of those who have never heard the name of Christ that Christ died for their sins. Because He did.But to tell a group of believers that Christ died for our sins is normative language.
And that's exactly what Paul told crowds of unbelievers when he went to Corinth where no one had heard the name of Christ before (Rom 15:20).Janx, Christ died for our sins.
To be clear, Paul was remindING that group of what he first preachED to them and what they had believED.If I'm talking to believers I would say that Christ died for our sins. Paul is talking to a group that he has a relationship with.
The point is that the Bible never says that Christ died for SOME sinners. There is no limitation placed on how many sinners Christ died for. And 1 Cor 15:1-11 is crystal clear that the crowd who had never heard the name of Christ heard that Christ died for their sins.Christ died for sinners. You are a sinner. To receive forgiveness for your sins you must repent of your sins believe on The Lord Jesus Christ.
But the point is that Paul remindED the believers of what he intially preachED to them before they had heard the name of Christ.Later I could say that I preached that Christ died for our sins. And it would be true.
Because that would be impossible. otoh, one can easily make the argument for unlimited atonement based on this passage!I'm not making an argument for limited atonement based on this passage.
Exactly. The use of "our" in v.3 indicates what Paul preachED to the crowds who had not heard the name of Christ before. They were all unbelievers, and the ones he wrote to had believED the message that Paul preachED to them.Those in the crowd would, without doubt, think that Christ died for their sins Hammster, so you have (unintentionally, I'm sure) mislead them. Saying 'Christ died for sinners. You are a sinner', to a crowd unversed in the nuances of the doctrines of Grace would mean that they would naturally put two and two together.
This is not the issue at all. 1 Cor 15:1-11 is a remindER to the believers in Corinth of what Paul preachED to them before they had heard the name of Christ. None of them were believers when Paul first preachED to them. They believED the message that Paul preachEd to them.Janx, the apostles all preached salvation in His name throughout the earth not distinguishing one from another as elect or not.
The answer is a resounding "yes"!!!! Which is very good news. What follows is better. If you place your trust in Christ for eternal life, He will give it to you.I'll pull a Janx on you. Someone in the crowd asks "What does it mean that Christ died for my sins? Does that mean He took the punishment?"
But all this is a red herring, hammster. Because Paul was reminding the believers of what he had preachED to them before they believED the message. In fact, he pointED out that this is what he preachED, and this is what you (the Corinthian believers) believED.My statement had nothing to do with limited or unlimited atonement. It was a statement to believers. It could be one that I make to you.
The scope of Christ's death has EVERYTHING to do with the atonement. He atoned for the sins of everyone he died for. Paul told crowds of unbelievers who had never heard the name of Christ that Christ died for their sins.So since I have repeatedly told you that it has nothing to do with limited or unlimited atonement
I am seeing the claim, but I have not seen any refutation yet. Could you point me to a specific post in which a refutation was given, please?And your use of those verses has been refuted every time.
YES, ABSOLUTELY!!! That is the point of Paul's review of what he had preachED to them, and what they had believED.I would model an evangelical outreach to unbelievers based on what the apostles told people to do to be saved.
Did they anywhere directly tell them that Christ died for their sins?
That is the exact OP. 1 Cor 15:1-11 is a review of what Paul preachED to crowds of those who had never heard the name of Christ.Perhaps a review of what they really said to the unsaved could settle the matter.
Define what you mean by access.
If Christ did not die for you, then salvation is not accessible.
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